Why do you think the series had such a hard time moving on from Shredder?

*CyberCubed* · 07-10-2010, 11:54 PM

I remember way back in 2003 when the new show was first starting, Peter Laird promised fans Shredder wouldn't be defeated in every single episode like he was in the old toon, (which was true), but also that Shredder would eventually be finished off and they'd move on to new villains.

But...that never really happened. Ch'rell was the main villain for Seasons 1-3. Then we had Karai as Lady Shredder in Season 4. Then Demon Shredder in Season 5. Then Shredder in 1 ep of FF. Then Cyber Shredder in Season 7. Then Shredder in "Turtles Forever."

Shredder was the main villain of the 2k3 series, same with the original 80's cartoon. Do you think the 4kids writers felt like the show would lose interest in little kids if there wasn't a Shredder in the series?

*Powder* · 07-11-2010, 12:41 AM

Well, we had a break with Fast Forward... but that hardly counts as "moving on to new villains" in the big picture. I suppose he's "The greatest evil" & without him everyone else comes off as less threatening and/or insignificant. Also you could say that Shredder was a cash cow villain in the original series (and we all know cartoons mostly serve to be 22 min. toy ads).

*Original TMNT Cartoon Fan* · 07-11-2010, 01:59 AM

Read the later Archie TMNT Adventures comics if you want more stories where the TMNT kick the butt of other guys and girls than Shredder. Or watch the season 4-6 (1990-1992) solo adventures of the 1987 TMNT cartoon.

But I agree the 2003 cartoon could have more other stories too.

*gobo* · 07-11-2010, 02:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Then Shredder in 1 ep of FF.

"Timing Is Everything" was NOT ep 1.

EDIT: Oh, I read that all dyslexic.

*BubblyShell22* · 07-11-2010, 07:34 AM

Probably because Shredder is the main villain in the TMNT universe. However, they did have other villains in 2K3 which made it better. If it had just been the Shredder as the villain it would've gotten boring.

*ToTheNines* · 07-11-2010, 01:11 PM

Are you serious? Batman/Joker... Superman/Luthor... Fantastic Four/Dr. Doom...

Try again.

*Xav* · 07-11-2010, 02:31 PM

I think it would be more interesting if they had the Foot trying to avenge Shredder's death.

*Andrew NDB* · 07-11-2010, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BubblyShell22

Probably because Shredder is the main villain in the TMNT universe.

Not in the core, original universe he's not.

*Coola Yagami* · 07-11-2010, 09:10 PM

I guess they felt they needed an ultimate evil, and even when Shredder was dealt with in the series, he was such a menace, it was always an big 'OH NO!!' when news hit that he might come back. Even Turtles Forever had the Turtles (and Hun) start to worry when it seemed that Shredder was coming back.

Plus, tying him into their origin, no matter how inadvertedly was a plus.

*Shark_Blade* · 07-11-2010, 11:12 PM

TMNT without Shredder, is like Sonic without Robotnik, or Harry Potter without Voldemort.

Both are the Ying and Yang, one cannot exist without the other. It doesn't feel complete or just right.

*Andrew NDB* · 07-11-2010, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shark_Blade

TMNT without Shredder, is like Sonic without Robotnik, or Harry Potter without Voldemort.

Both are the Ying and Yang, one cannot exist without the other. It doesn't feel complete or just right.

Peripherally. I mean, yes, Shredder does need to be there in some capacity, and most certainly at the beginning.

Beyond that? Not so much. But his presence can be felt beyond him actually hovering around, alive.

*Redeemer* · 07-12-2010, 12:10 AM

I see what u mean I just wish they would have stuck with one shredder and not multiple incarnations. Ecspecially cyber shredder, "I thought shredder wars would be awesome but it never even made it there."
I would have like to see more of Bishop and "Rat King".

*Original TMNT Cartoon Fan* · 07-12-2010, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shark_Blade

TMNT without Shredder, is like Sonic without Robotnik, or Harry Potter without Voldemort.

Both are the Ying and Yang, one cannot exist without the other. It doesn't feel complete or just right.

TMNT has a more expanded number of bad guys, and many later stories work without him. I agree Shredder needs to be in the first stories, but not in every story.

*shuriken* · 07-12-2010, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Peripherally. I mean, yes, Shredder does need to be there in some capacity, and most certainly at the beginning.

Beyond that? Not so much. But his presence can be felt beyond him actually hovering around, alive.

The fact that he has been dead for so long in the comics and the TMNT still feel the backlash of his death is a testament of the importance of the Shredder. In 2k3 I think it was a bit of overkill with the 5 Shredders (Utrom, Tengu, Human/Tengu, Karai, Viral). I liked the idea that Karai wanted to take up th mantle. As for the Tengu Shredder they could have just used any number of Demons to the same effect without cauging up another Shredder incarnation.

*Spitfire* · 07-12-2010, 03:06 AM

It's a series, for kids, they need one main villain. In the comic book Shredder and the Foot Clan were really the only major villains. Karai was only ever an ally that couldn't fully be trusted. In the end the only long running villain was The Foot and they're uninteresting with no leader. You really had no other main villains. Shredder impacted their lives the most in the comics hence why I see he was chosen to be the core villain of the series.

You mention he returns a lot in the series but he returned a lot in the comic as well. He came back twice, once as a worm clone and once as a shark mutant. I can see why they chose to keep bringing him back. You had the Utrom Shredder who was basically Krang and Shredder mixed into one villain. Then you had his jaded daughter, who eventually becomes a good guy. You had the Demon Shredder who was the true Shredder that the Utrom Shredder merely copied and also held the Demon Shredder' mystics hostage. Lastly you had Cyber Shredder who was a combination of Viral and the Utrom Shredder's backed up memory.

The Cyber Shredder is really the only Shredder I think is completely pointless. He only existed because the series was going "back to the sewer" and that meant bringing back the main villain because someone at 4Kids thought FF didn't do well because Shredder wasn't in it.

*Xav* · 07-12-2010, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spitfire

In the end the only long running villain was The Foot and they're uninteresting with no leader.

Yes but why does that leader have to be Shredder?

*Shark_Blade* · 07-12-2010, 05:59 PM

Because he is the sole founder? Nothing beats the original creator.

Shellsweet · 07-12-2010, 06:22 PM

*shrugs* Personatly it never bothered me to have the shredder come back over and over again from seasons 1-3, and Karai becoming the shredder was a different character from the actual shredder still. And it was interesting concept to have the Tengu Shredder in the series. But after the Cyber shredder, they were pushing it.

but TMNT Had lots of other Villians in the 2k3 series. (Savanti Rameo, The Ultimate Ninja, Hun, Stockman, Bishop, Draco, Federation, Triceratons (when the Prime Leader was there) and so many others. I think they balanced the shredder out of the series, in my opinion.

But it's a kid show, I don't really try to let it get under my skin too much.

*shuriken* · 07-12-2010, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spitfire

You had the Demon Shredder who was the true Shredder that the Utrom Shredder merely copied and also held the Demon Shredder' mystics hostage.

But you have to admit that the Utrom Shredder had been around for a long long time, more than enough to establish a mythological fear for not only himself but the Foot. The Demon/Tengu/Oroko Saki 1.0 Shredder could have been ANY other monster/ elemental beast and used for the same effect. Hell he could have been The Dragon Lord with all of the mystic's powers for all I care. TWO Shredder's should have been enough. And yeah Oroku Saki came back twice, as a worm cone and a shark clone thing but overall he was in what like 7 Mirage comics all together?
Cyber and Demon Shredder, as much as I liked their designs, were overkill for me. I think having them in the toon just cheapens Ch'rel's character.

*Redeemer* · 07-12-2010, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shark_Blade

Because he is the sole founder? Nothing beats the original creator.

I don't think he was the original creator. It never says in the 2k3 series that I remember. But in the othe universes he is either given power or take leadership of the foot clan.

07-10-2010, 11:54 PM	#1
CyberCubed Overlord Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 43,778	Why do you think the series had such a hard time moving on from Shredder? I remember way back in 2003 when the new show was first starting, Peter Laird promised fans Shredder wouldn't be defeated in every single episode like he was in the old toon, (which was true), but also that Shredder would eventually be finished off and they'd move on to new villains. But...that never really happened. Ch'rell was the main villain for Seasons 1-3. Then we had Karai as Lady Shredder in Season 4. Then Demon Shredder in Season 5. Then Shredder in 1 ep of FF. Then Cyber Shredder in Season 7. Then Shredder in "Turtles Forever." Shredder was the main villain of the 2k3 series, same with the original 80's cartoon. Do you think the 4kids writers felt like the show would lose interest in little kids if there wasn't a Shredder in the series?

07-11-2010, 01:59 AM	#3
Original TMNT Cartoon Fan Overlord Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Sweden Posts: 10,480	Archie TMNT Adventures comics Read the later Archie TMNT Adventures comics if you want more stories where the TMNT kick the butt of other guys and girls than Shredder. Or watch the season 4-6 (1990-1992) solo adventures of the 1987 TMNT cartoon. But I agree the 2003 cartoon could have more other stories too.

07-11-2010, 07:34 AM	#5
BubblyShell22 Leo-holic Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Indiana Posts: 16,912	Probably because Shredder is the main villain in the TMNT universe. However, they did have other villains in 2K3 which made it better. If it had just been the Shredder as the villain it would've gotten boring. __________________ "A warrior who never fails, never learns."-The Ancient One. "Embrace your inner a**holiness."-Mr. Anderson.

07-11-2010, 09:10 PM	#9
Coola Yagami Overlord Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 15,675	I guess they felt they needed an ultimate evil, and even when Shredder was dealt with in the series, he was such a menace, it was always an big 'OH NO!!' when news hit that he might come back. Even Turtles Forever had the Turtles (and Hun) start to worry when it seemed that Shredder was coming back. Plus, tying him into their origin, no matter how inadvertedly was a plus. __________________ "I was down with TMNT once, but then they changed what TMNT was. Now what I was down with is no longer TMNT and what TMNT now is seems weird and scary. And it'll happen to YOU." Check out my blog for Comic Reviews and other things. https://markepicblogofrandomness.blogspot.com/ I also started The AEW Crew, the All Elite Wrestling Fan Club! https://www.facebook.com/groups/637508120044168/

07-12-2010, 03:06 AM	#15
Spitfire Writer • Director Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 12,035	It's a series, for kids, they need one main villain. In the comic book Shredder and the Foot Clan were really the only major villains. Karai was only ever an ally that couldn't fully be trusted. In the end the only long running villain was The Foot and they're uninteresting with no leader. You really had no other main villains. Shredder impacted their lives the most in the comics hence why I see he was chosen to be the core villain of the series. You mention he returns a lot in the series but he returned a lot in the comic as well. He came back twice, once as a worm clone and once as a shark mutant. I can see why they chose to keep bringing him back. You had the Utrom Shredder who was basically Krang and Shredder mixed into one villain. Then you had his jaded daughter, who eventually becomes a good guy. You had the Demon Shredder who was the true Shredder that the Utrom Shredder merely copied and also held the Demon Shredder' mystics hostage. Lastly you had Cyber Shredder who was a combination of Viral and the Utrom Shredder's backed up memory. The Cyber Shredder is really the only Shredder I think is completely pointless. He only existed because the series was going "back to the sewer" and that meant bringing back the main villain because someone at 4Kids thought FF didn't do well because Shredder wasn't in it. __________________ Check out my online portfolio http://www.christopherpelletier.com/

07-11-2010, 12:41 AM	#2
Powder 40 Years of TMNT Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Shell-Ri-La Posts: 26,945	Well, we had a break with Fast Forward... but that hardly counts as "moving on to new villains" in the big picture. I suppose he's "The greatest evil" & without him everyone else comes off as less threatening and/or insignificant. Also you could say that Shredder was a cash cow villain in the original series (and we all know cartoons mostly serve to be 22 min. toy ads).

07-11-2010, 01:11 PM	#6
ToTheNines Col. Stinkmeaner Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 19,187	Are you serious? Batman/Joker... Superman/Luthor... Fantastic Four/Dr. Doom... Try again.

07-11-2010, 02:31 PM	#7
Xav Foot Elite Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 3,039	I think it would be more interesting if they had the Foot trying to avenge Shredder's death.

07-11-2010, 11:12 PM	#10
Shark_Blade Emperor Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 7,909	TMNT without Shredder, is like Sonic without Robotnik, or Harry Potter without Voldemort. Both are the Ying and Yang, one cannot exist without the other. It doesn't feel complete or just right.

07-12-2010, 12:10 AM	#12
Redeemer Technodrome Technician Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: third earth Posts: 4,737	I see what u mean I just wish they would have stuck with one shredder and not multiple incarnations. Ecspecially cyber shredder, "I thought shredder wars would be awesome but it never even made it there." I would have like to see more of Bishop and "Rat King".

07-12-2010, 05:59 PM	#17
Shark_Blade Emperor Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 7,909	Because he is the sole founder? Nothing beats the original creator.

07-12-2010, 06:22 PM	#18
Shellsweet Foot Soldier Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sewers of South Carolina. :P Posts: 126	shrugs Personatly it never bothered me to have the shredder come back over and over again from seasons 1-3, and Karai becoming the shredder was a different character from the actual shredder still. And it was interesting concept to have the Tengu Shredder in the series. But after the Cyber shredder, they were pushing it. but TMNT Had lots of other Villians in the 2k3 series. (Savanti Rameo, The Ultimate Ninja, Hun, Stockman, Bishop, Draco, Federation, Triceratons (when the Prime Leader was there) and so many others. I think they balanced the shredder out of the series, in my opinion. But it's a kid show, I don't really try to let it get under my skin too much. __________________ Check me out on DeviantART and Tumblr!: www.shellsweet.deviantart.com/ http://www.shellsweet.tumblr.com/ Ask me about Commissions!