Peter Laird on IDW TMNT

[Konchadunga]

Originally Posted by Metropoliskid41

This analogy/reasoning is flawed, as Laird was very active in the 2k3 series.

It is not flawed, because the 2k3 series was (at least initially) a relatively acurate adaptation of the Mirage comics that Peter Laird had direct control over. That wasn't the case with the Teen Titans animated series; it wasn't developed by Marv Wolfman, made multiple changes from the source material, flanderized the characters tremendously, and in its adaptation of the Judas Contract arc, concluded with the exact sort of ending that Marv Wolfman deliberately avoided in the original. I'm kinda drunk right now, so I cannot really post a lot more, but I think my point is clear. Have you actually seen the Teen Titans cartoon?

[Killer Moth]

Originally Posted by Konchadunga

It is not flawed, because the 2k3 series was (at least initially) a relatively acurate adaptation of the Mirage comics that Peter Laird had direct control over. That wasn't the case with the Teen Titans animated series; it wasn't developed by Marv Wolfman, made multiple changes from the source material, flanderized the characters tremendously, and in its adaptation of the Judas Contract arc, concluded with the exact sort of ending that Marv Wolfman deliberately avoided in the original. I'm kinda drunk right now, so I cannot really post a lot more, but I think my point is clear. Have you actually seen the Teen Titans cartoon?

(Puts on Titans-fan hat for a moment.)

At most, Marv Wolfman wrote only two episodes. The first was a late Season 1 filler episode, which was lackluster at best. (It was remarkable in that it introduced Aqualad and Trident.) He later wrote part 1 of the Season 3 finale, and offered the best Brother Blood characterization in the series. Either way, Marv wasn't involved much, but he obviously was willing to go along for the ride.

Actually, the animated series was an improvement for both Starfire and Raven. Comic Starfire was basically Innocent fan-service girl, while Comic Raven was walking and talking wangst. Both characters are good, yet the animated series obviously had to tone down such characterizations and, in their way, improve them. However, unique problems later developed, as comic Raven eventually became more like her sardonic and surly animated character. (Her reactions toward Beast Boy by the end of the animated series were borderline abusive, hence the complaint.)

Same with the Judas Contract, as the revisions were acceptable until the writers couldn't decide to make Terra become like her comic self (a hardcore psychopath who loved being evil) or go with the sympathetic character the animated version was becoming. That, and 5 episodes of her in a 13 episode season doesn't exactly allow the audience to truly empathize the loss or impact of her betrayal.

Oddly enough, the show started to nudge toward its comic roots with the final two seasons, especially the final one with its take on "Titans Hunt." It all works out, somehow.

Anyway, it isn't the best comparison, for Laird played an incredibly major hand with the 2003 series than Wolfman ever did. For example, in reading the emails, it is rather interesting in how the 4Kids writers/producers were quite willing to do even more allusions to the OT. As for Laird shooting them down, you can decide if it was a good thing, or not.

Anyway, moving on to hopefully something on-topic. He makes an interesting point about 'changing the origin for the sake of changing,' or to make something more about the Turtles rather than the accidential nature of their birth. On the one hand, the reincarnation angle is an incredibly fresh one, yet, on the other, we lose the Daredevil/Frank Miller parody which inspired the Turtles in the first place. Win some, lose some, I suppose.

[Konchadunga]

Originally Posted by Killer Moth

Anyway, moving on to hopefully something on-topic. He makes an interesting point about 'changing the origin for the sake of changing,' or to make something more about the Turtles rather than the accidential nature of their birth. On the one hand, the reincarnation angle is an incredibly fresh one, yet, on the other, we lose the Daredevil/Frank Miller parody which inspired the Turtles in the first place. Win some, lose some, I suppose.

Daredevil is a rather obscure character; that the Turtles were a parody of his stories would hardly be apparent to most modern readers, so there is virtually nothing to be gained from reiterating their origin as analogous to his. I retain my opinion that adaptations most definitely should change things for change's sake; that's the point of adaptations, so long as they aren't anything too excessive. (I'm looking at you; Michael Bay!) Also, Peter Laird slammed Cowboys and Aliens for being "by the numbers;" so I'm guessing that part of his attitude is that he's just extremely pessimistic about almost everything.

[Genesis]

I am entirely on Laird's side about the reincarnation bit.

The colour thing sounded like he was reaching for reasons, but I can sorta get where he's coming from.

[Cowabunga Carl]

I always find it interesting how much more Kevin is/was willing to explore different aspects of the TMNT then Peter was. I understand that the TMNT were a labor of love for Peter, but I think they were for Kevin too. Sometimes things work for a while, sometimes they need to change.

Now the argument about change for change sake isn't that compelling for me. I think the change was made so it wasn't just a carbon copy again. We have the Mirage comic, the first movie, the 2k3, and to an extent the OT that all have the same basic origin. We've seen it over and over. I will admit I was a little concerned about the change at first. Now I dig it and it works for this book. I still have the Mirage books and love them. I read them too. It isn't like this new book erases all those.

I honestly think what is going on is Peter is experiencing a little sellers remorse. That he thought the franchise was dead and figured he'd make a quick buck. Then when he saw that there was a successful comic that is doing fairly well he became bitter.

[Galactus]

Originally Posted by Old Hob

I always find it interesting how much more Kevin is/was willing to explore different aspects of the TMNT then Peter was. I understand that the TMNT were a labor of love for Peter, but I think they were for Kevin too. Sometimes things work for a while, sometimes they need to change.

I always thought for Kevin it was a funny li'l comic that ended up making him millions. That's why he was less inclined fight for his own personal sense of integrity in the mass media versions, because to him it was well made joke but even then someone that didn't like to stay on something for too long and that's why he seemed to resent it because in his own words "it never stopped". Just like with Laird the business end became so overwhelming he had to step away.

Now the argument about change for change sake isn't that compelling for me. I think the change was made so it wasn't just a carbon copy again. We have the Mirage comic, the first movie, the 2k3, and to an extent the OT that all have the same basic origin. We've seen it over and over. I will admit I was a little concerned about the change at first. Now I dig it and it works for this book. I still have the Mirage books and love them. I read them too. It isn't like this new book erases all those.

It's perfectly valid argument that changing something at it's core changes it to the extent that you may just come up with an original concept using that idea instead of applying it to an already existing property. We've had numerous takes of Batman and Spider-Man and Superman but basics are all in place in each version.

A person who is open to change can still dislike a particular change or changes. I'm personaly okay with the reincarnation but the whole evil corporation manufacturing super soldiers from some shadow figure with an alien connection is just fanboy kewl that I just roll my eyes.

I don't get how the man who okayed or even thought up some major changes in the 4Kids show is closed off from change.

I honestly think what is going on is Peter is experiencing a little sellers remorse. That he thought the franchise was dead and figured he'd make a quick buck. Then when he saw that there was a successful comic that is doing fairly well he became bitter.

He doesn't talk like someone who has sellers remorse or someone that figured the franchise was dead. A movie deal was in place and was a major factor of Viacom wanting to the buy the franchise. He knew Nickleodeon had plans for a cartoon and he's even said he likes what he sees of it from the different material that's been forwarded to him.

His reasons for not caring much for IDW's ongoing book are as perfectly valid as the next even if you or I may not agree.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by Killer Moth

However, unique problems later developed, as comic Raven eventually became more like her sardonic and surly animated character. (Her reactions toward Beast Boy by the end of the animated series were borderline abusive, hence the complaint.)

Raven's abuse of BB was completly understandable seeing as the writers admitted they wrote them like how an "old married couple" would act...I agree that it gets a little sadistic (particulary in Titans in Tokyo), but it's still pretty funny, and you know the two love each other to bits anyway (Besides, they became a couple in the comics, and they ended the pre-52 Titan continuity together). Hopefully the new all-comedy Titan cartoon slowly blurs and blends their comic and cartoon histories together.

[CyberCubed]

Keep in mind PL said he only skimmed through the first two issues or so when it first came out. He never seriously sat down to read through the series.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Konchadunga

It is not flawed, because the 2k3 series was (at least initially) a relatively acurate adaptation of the Mirage comics

Not at all.

[Allio]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Not at all.

When it did try to adapt issues of the comics, it was pretty accurate (ie The King) but yet still keeping it different to stay in line with what the show did different (When they meet the time lord's student) and fixed things that made me depressed (the story with the merman XP)

though it still tried to be different, which is how an adaptation should be (Adaptations are difficult the way it should be done, from comics/games to movies, remakes, and even stuff like Sentai into Power Rangers)

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Allio

When it did try to adapt issues of the comics, it was pretty accurate (ie The King)

That's the only episode that actually adapted anything. And it was impressive.

Even though I've never really been a fan of that particular issue.

[corvus]

2k3 series is obviously mostly based on mirage.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by corvus

2k3 series is obviously mostly based on mirage.

Two episodes halfway decently, then some very, very broad strokes from a few other issues cherry picked and spread out over some pretty ghastly episodes, and then a few episodes in title only (yes, I'm looking at you, "Return to New York," "City at War" -- and I can't stress those quote marks more). That's really it.

[Galactus]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

That's the only episode that actually adapted anything. And it was impressive.

Even though I've never really been a fan of that particular issue.

It adapted many stories from Mirage now whether it did so in satisying way is up to the viewer who knows both versions to decide.

Did you really expect 100% accuracy in a saturday morning cartoon or a show written with the benefit of hindshight as opposed to something made on an almost issue by issue basis. Your threshold for how much change should be done obviously differs from most but I'd argue there were a few that were adapted with a much more reasonable degree of accuracy beyond just Donatello #1. The People's Choice, I Monster, Return of Savanti, All Hallows Thieves even Raph's sub story in Challenges to name a few.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Galactus

Did you really expect 100% accuracy in a saturday morning cartoon or a show written with the benefit of hindshight

Or more appropriately worded, "Did you really expect 100% accuracy in a saturday morning cartoon written for children?"

No. Not at all. Did I in any way represent my statement with any element of surprise or shock? It's a cartoon for little kids, of course it's going to be watered down to applesauce and sprinkled with toys-to-be filler characters and slapstick fluff. 4Kids TMNT didn't exactly break the mold in any way, shape, or form beyond making a marginally better (or at least marginally more faithful, insomuch as a TMNT cartoon can be for little kids... I don't begrudge them that, it's more a begrudging of how the medium and target demographic does not behoove the source material) cartoon than the Fred Wolf series.

[Venom]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

That's the only episode that actually adapted anything. And it was impressive.

Even though I've never really been a fan of that particular issue.

To be fair, Murph adapted his own "Sons of the Silent Age" story for the 4Kids! series.

I've not seen a lot of the 4Kids! episodes. but I remember seeing that one and enjoying how similar the stories played out; then again, the man who wrote the orginal story did his own adaptation so that possibly plays into the quality.

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by Venom

To be fair, Murph adapted his own "Sons of the Silent Age" story for the 4Kids! series.

I've not seen a lot of the 4Kids! episodes. but I remember seeing that one and enjoying how similar the stories played out; then again, the man who wrote the orginal story did his own adaptation so that possibly plays into the quality.

I believe you're almost alone on these boards in feeling that way, but if you enjoyed it, good for you.

I'm still scratching my head over it. Either Murphy didn't realize the gravity of the original story, or he really wanted to take advantage of the opportunity to present an (even more) environmentally conscious episode to kids. And maybe a more upbeat one.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Cipher

I'm still scratching my head over it. Either Murphy didn't realize the gravity of the original story, or he really wanted to take advantage of the opportunity to present an (even more) environmentally conscious episode to kids. And maybe a more upbeat one.

Again, it's a cartoon for little kids... and Murphy was a gun-for-hire. The actual "Sons of the Silent Age" story would make little tykes want to slit their own wrists (or at least that would be the corporate/demographic way of thinking) so he delivered something that... wasn't like that.

It would be one thing if Murphy was tasked with, "Hey, deliver us your definitive version of the 'Sons of the Silent Age' comic book story in script-form for the screen"... but he wasn't. What he was tasked with, like I would imagine every writer on the show, was, "Hey, deliver us a version of the 'Sons of the Silent Age' comic book story... but make it age appropriate, real kid friendly and all that. Oh yeah, and here's a bunch of notes from Playmates about stuff you need to include."

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Again, it's a cartoon for little kids... and Murphy was a gun-for-hire. The actual "Sons of the Silent Age" story would make little tykes want to slit their own wrists (or at least that would be the corporate/demographic way of thinking) so he delivered something that... wasn't like that.

It would be one thing if Murphy was tasked with, "Hey, deliver us your definitive version of the 'Sons of the Silent Age' comic book story in script-form for the screen"... but he wasn't. What he was tasked with, like I would imagine every writer on the show, was, "Hey, deliver us a version of the 'Sons of the Silent Age' comic book story... but make it age appropriate, real kid friendly and all that. Oh yeah, and here's a bunch of notes from Playmates about stuff you need to include."

Yeah, I'm not really blaming him. Although I guess it seems like I was.

The 4Kids series was what it was, and it's guilty of a lot more kids' TV pitfalls than most fans own up to. I suppose more than anything, I just question the wisdom of adapting that issue in the first place, since even the episode as a stand-alone entry seems tonally inconsistent.

[Roseangelo]

Sons of the Silent Age was also adapted for the old TMNT newspaper strip by Murphy and Jim Lawson (before Dan took over). It was a bit of a downer there, too.