Eastman and Laird not considered the creators of TMNT?!??

[erik]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYvP7ASrmg8&feature=plcp

I bet a lot of people have seen that video, comparing the old TMNT to the 2003 version. It was pretty good. Though it seemed to be asking for controversy.

But what struck me was a comment (in one of the videos) where he says some fans of the original cartoon don't consider Eastman and Laird the creators of the Turtles. Is that really a prevalent delusion among TMNT fans? I can gather the intention is to give credit to the people who adapted the series for TV - but not at the expense of the actual creators.

[Archon_Turtle]

some people feel that the 88 cartoon is the definitive iteration, but to my knowledge...nobody considers Fred Wolf the creator of the turtles...except for Fred Wolf.

[Genesis]

I'd always guessed that he was going off of conversations he's had first-hand.

[OA]

Wait...so Fred Wolf ISN"T the creator of the TMNT?!

[Xav]

No of course not, David Wise is.

[oldmanwinters]

My guess is that most uneducated TMNT fans of the old series just assumed that the franchise was created by a toy company, ala Hasbro's Tformers and Mattel's Masters of the U.

I really don't know though. Everybody can use Wikipedia these days and at least sound like they know what they're talking about when they cite E & L and the original "dark and gritty" Mirage comics (which, honestly, weren't really as "mature" as some fans seem to think, IMO).

[OA]

Originally Posted by oldmanwinters

(which, honestly, weren't really as "mature" as some fans seem to think, IMO).

Well, in comparison to the old toon, I think I could see how blood, booze, and buxomness might garner a mature rating, esp. back in the day. "Mature" in 2012 is a whole other beast...

[erik]

Originally Posted by oldmanwinters

My guess is that most uneducated TMNT fans of the old series just assumed that the franchise was created by a toy company, ala Hasbro's Tformers and Mattel's Masters of the U.

I really don't know though. Everybody can use Wikipedia these days and at least sound like they know what they're talking about when they cite E & L and the original "dark and gritty" Mirage comics (which, honestly, weren't really as "mature" as some fans seem to think, IMO).

The early Turtle comics where a mix of everything. I mean, they bounded from on the ground grittiness, to Dinosaur StarWars. I think there was an inherent parody aspect -- like having the scary looking Utroms (who you at first would think are villains) turn out to be the best of all the Turtle allies.

The book only grew more mature from there. Sons of the Silent Age is one of the best examples of the title doing something very mature. Mature doesn't always mean sex and violence.

[oldmanwinters]

Originally Posted by TMNTerminator

Well, in comparison to the old toon, I think I could see how blood, booze, and buxomness might garner a mature rating, esp. back in the day. "Mature" in 2012 is a whole other beast...

That's a decent point, but even compared to "Xtreme!" era comics of the 90s, I think the early Mirage stuff seems clean and tame. What most novice readers of those comics fail to notice is the fact that so much of those early issues consist of obvious parodies and in-jokes of the comic industry. E&L knew the original concept was ridiculous, but they had fun with it and decided to play their humor straight. The rest is history. Granted, they started to play upon truly darker themes when they came back to write the "Return to New York" and (especially) the "Shades of Grey/City at War" arc, but the early issues consist of so much subtle humor it's hard for me to say those issues are "dark and gritty."

[Venom]

Originally Posted by TMNTerminator

Well, in comparison to the old toon, I think I could see how blood, booze, and buxomness might garner a mature rating, esp. back in the day. "Mature" in 2012 is a whole other beast...

I kinda miss the old school boozin' Raph.

A Tales story I had in mind focusing on the seemingly abandoned Raph/Mike friendship would've had a shot of Mikey coming up behind Raph chilling on a roof ledge with a 6-pack. Raph would've snorted something like "So help me God, Mike if you try to push me..." and Mike would've plopped down beside him and say "Relax, bro...", and handed him a bottle.

Ending shots would've been from behind the two overlooking the cityscape, Raph with his arm perched on Mike's shoulder and saying "I love you, Mike." and he'd quip "Is that the alcohol talking?" with both snickering.

[Powder]

Stan Lee created the TMNT.

...See what I did there?

[Canadian Turtle]

Originally Posted by Powder

Stan Lee created the TMNT.

...See what I did there?

HAHAHA! Now that is funny!

I agree there are some pretty angry goings on in the past with Fred Wolf, Dave Wise and the Mirage Gang. Now having had the privilege of including the two of them in the new documentary interview content from the last trip I'll go on record and say Fred is a super nice guy and would never take credit for "creating the Turtles". Did they adapt and change a lot and thus make a successful show? Hell yes! No one can really debate that, but There has been a lot of miss-construed comments taken from those guys that make them look like they are trying to take credit for "creating the TMNT", but in both their interviews they make it very clear they are not trying to say anything of the sort. THAT SAID, both have very interesting perspectives... I'm really glad we got them in there, I think very important content that might have been missed otherwise.

[oldmanwinters]

Originally Posted by Canadian Turtle

HAHAHA! Now that is funny!

I agree there are some pretty angry goings on in the past with Fred Wolf, Dave Wise and the Mirage Gang. Now having had the privilege of including the two of them in the new documentary interview content from the last trip I'll go on record and say Fred is a super nice guy and would never take credit for "creating the Turtles". Did they adapt and change a lot and thus make a successful show? Hell yes! No one can really debate that, but There has been a lot of miss-construed comments taken from those guys that make them look like they are trying to take credit for "creating the TMNT", but in both their interviews they make it very clear they are not trying to say anything of the sort. THAT SAID, both have very interesting perspectives... I'm really glad we got them in there, I think very important content that might have been missed otherwise.

Imma gonna LOVE this documentary!

[Genesis]

Pretty sure we all will.

[pannoni1]

Originally Posted by erik

But what struck me was a comment (in one of the videos) where he says some fans of the original cartoon don't consider Eastman and Laird the creators of the Turtles. Is that really a prevalent delusion among TMNT fans?

On the copyright screen of the original cartoon's credits, it clearly says in bold:

TEENAGE MUTANT NINJA TURTLES

Created By
KEVIN EASTMAN
and
PETER LAIRD

Based Upon Comic Charachters

©1985 Mirage Studios

Executive Producer
MARK FREEDMAN

This program is produced pursuant to an
exclusive license granted by Surge Licensing.

Those people who don't consider them the creators are morons. Mark Freedman was responsible for making the licensing after E&L saw that he was a great licensee, which led to their trip to SoCal and saw that Playmates would be a good startup for displaying the merchandise, which led to this cartoon to sell toys. The first animated TMNT series is sort of a middle ground cartoon of its time in that some of the stories are approved by the creators and provide a distinguished universe from Mirage, but some aspects were strictly made to sell toys, particularly the vehicles. But in the end, the success that led to this was a product of great sales of the early Mirage comics. Mr. Freedman is basically the first person whom you should criticize about the selling out of the Turtles. Meanwhile, Eastman & Laird are the origin of the creative aspect of TMNT. They passed down some of their creations to Fred Wolf & Co. (which in turn lead to Archie Comics to derive some of that material). Keep in mind the history of TMNT is like a family tree: it starts with an origin point, branches out into different incarnations, which in turn can branch out into different incarnations, or can have a fusion of past incarnations that merge together (Turtles Forever).

[shezcrafti]

Originally Posted by Venom

I kinda miss the old school boozin' Raph.

Me too.

Originally Posted by Venom

A Tales story I had in mind focusing on the seemingly abandoned Raph/Mike friendship would've had a shot of Mikey coming up behind Raph chilling on a roof ledge with a 6-pack. Raph would've snorted something like "So help me God, Mike if you try to push me..." and Mike would've plopped down beside him and say "Relax, bro...", and handed him a bottle.

Ending shots would've been from behind the two overlooking the cityscape, Raph with his arm perched on Mike's shoulder and saying "I love you, Mike." and he'd quip "Is that the alcohol talking?" with both snickering.

I love that.

[Xav]

If Mark Freedman is the Executive Producer, why don't people credit him with the old show instead of Fred Wolf?

[Canadian Turtle]

Because Mark was simply a marketing exec, he brought the concept to the only toy company that would take it, they brought in Fred Wolf and Fred brought in his writers. Mark gets credit for making deals happen thus being an executive producer, but other than some suggestive input his job was not to define the product creatively.