Who would have won? - Page 2

*Anarky* · 11-29-2005, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by longing for leo

Hmm, but he's made changes before. I voted Leo, & not just cause he's my fav. I don't think that there's anything to suggest that Usagi has had more training than Leo. All we ever see Leo doing is train, & Usagi seems to be more of a guard or nomad or something (in this show). Plus, Leo's just so focused and intent on being the best that he can be...and better. It's likely that they are evenly matched skill wise, but it seems like Leo has more drive. Yes it would be predictable, which might be why he got poisoned. I admit, it would be very interesting to see Leo's reaction if he really had lost the turnament, proving to himself & everyone else that he's really not the best. Me thinks he'd be sulking for a while...Although, if one of his bros or even Usagi won, he'd probably swallow his pride/bitter feelings and show them nothing but support.

Liard might change canon sometime, but at the moment, the case is clear. Usagi would win. That's what canon says and that's how it is. There simply is no arguing about that. Unless you want to accuse Laird of being an incompetent idiot who has no idea.

11-29-2005, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anarky

Uhm... this is getting a tad self-contradictory. In the other thread you go all "Look at the facts" and now you try to interpret the facts in a new way. I'd stick with your first view on things.

No, I'm not saying that Leo would beat everyone and be the winner just because he's the leading character. I'm just saying that between Leo and Usagi (who happen to be the greatest fighters in their own universe, not including their masters and arch nemesis), it could go either way depending on the series. If it's a TMNT series (which it is) the win would lean towards Leo, where as if it was an Usagi Yojimbo series, the win would lean towards Usagi.

Though we all know who the true winner should have been...

Splinter.

*zkarlette* · 11-29-2005, 06:31 PM

Splinter had already won for sure

I think leo would win but I really like how Leo and Usagi work as a team

*Duke* · 11-29-2005, 06:33 PM

I'm glad to see that Leonardo has almost caught up to Mikey.

~~ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael~~ · 11-29-2005, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryona

No, I'm not saying that Leo would beat everyone and be the winner just because he's the leading character. I'm just saying that between Leo and Usagi (who happen to be the greatest fighters in their own universe, not including their masters and arch nemesis), it could go either way depending on the series. If it's a TMNT series (which it is) the win would lean towards Leo, where as if it was an Usagi Yojimbo series, the win would lean towards Usagi.

Though we all know who the true winner should have been...

Splinter.

I really don't think that would be the case. I mean, even Laird reconizes how skilled Usagi is, and he knows when you look at the facts, Usagi is more skilled and disceplind than the TMNT. Yes I do think Leo could beat Usagi....If he trains harder.

And yes, if Splinter didn't concede to Mikey, he would have won again, but that really wouldn't be fair to the TMNT, seeing is how it was their chance to win.

Turtle Dove · 11-29-2005, 08:01 PM

i love Leo- but Usagi looks like he would of won. Mikey won by dumb luck then won again cause Leo trained him-so maybe Leo woulda won?

*Duke* · 11-29-2005, 08:08 PM

Is anyone else hoping the show actually gives us a New Nexus tournament so we can get a real answer to this question?

Turtle Dove · 11-29-2005, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duke

Is anyone else hoping the show actually gives us a New Nexus tournament so we can get a real answer to this question?

a 3rd one? I can see MIkey screaming as he runs away.

*Duke* · 11-29-2005, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikey's Girl

a 3rd one?

Unfortunately I missed Grudge Match but I thought it was only a rematch not a whole new tournament.

**Jester** · 11-29-2005, 10:50 PM

I voted Usagi....cause he is the most dedicated and seems to trump Leo in skill...but have we looked at why Laird and Lloyd made Mikey the victor in the first place? We all assume Mikey's a slacker, that in a fight that he might not defend himself like the uber-dedicated Leonardo. They wrote Mikey as the winner to show that any TMNT, in the right environment could shine in a fight...Mikey, under the influence of the shouting crowd, finally found the attention he seems to long for, and thus fought with more consentration so as not to lose that rush of the crowd....It was his environment to shine in...and he did....end of story.

*iris* · 11-30-2005, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryona

The fact that Mikey has got any votes period is ridiculous. I seriously doubt Leo or Usagi would have been as generous towards Mikey as Splinter was and just give him the win.

I'm not sure why Mikey was put on the poll, but I think he does belong there.

Here is my ever-so logical rationale: Winning was Mikey's destiny.

Not your ordinary, run-of-the-mill cosmic destiny, mind you, but a more powerful form: the will of the writers.

IMO, Usagi could beat the crap outta Leo and Mike, and probably be a real challenge to Splinter's title, but it wouldn't have happened even if Usagi had continued the tournament. Having Mikey win was just too perfect. They took the opportunity to enforce what we know intuitively, which is that Mike may have as much potential as any of his brothers... but he's just not as interested. While Usagi and Leo are awesome, Mikey's success was fun to witness.

*Buslady* · 11-30-2005, 12:17 PM

It'd be Leo..it's ALWAYS Leo...even we know Usagi is a better trained warrior.

Fledermaus · 11-30-2005, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jester

I voted Usagi....cause he is the most dedicated and seems to trump Leo in skill...but have we looked at why Laird and Lloyd made Mikey the victor in the first place? We all assume Mikey's a slacker, that in a fight that he might not defend himself like the uber-dedicated Leonardo. They wrote Mikey as the winner to show that any TMNT, in the right environment could shine in a fight...Mikey, under the influence of the shouting crowd, finally found the attention he seems to long for, and thus fought with more consentration so as not to lose that rush of the crowd....It was his environment to shine in...and he did....end of story.

Hmm... in that case, even though I think Usagi is more skilled than Leo, Old Fearless has been shown capable of psychotic determination--Leo's relentless will (plus other lucky circumstances) might help him defeat someone like Usagi.

Oh wait. DUH. Of COURSE Leo would win, even though Usagi is probably better skilled than he. Anyone ever read "The Tortoise and the Hare?" Exactly.

*iris* · 11-30-2005, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buslady

It'd be Leo..it's ALWAYS Leo...

And since it's always Leo, it couldn't be Leo, and wasn't. Because Leo is an eternal paradox. He's deep, man. Real deep.

(

Actually, because it would have been a tad predictable.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fledermaus

Oh wait. DUH. Of COURSE Leo would win, even though Usagi is probably better skilled than he. Anyone ever read "The Tortoise and the Hare?" Exactly.

*dies of laughter*

11-30-2005, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fledermaus

Oh wait. DUH. Of COURSE Leo would win, even though Usagi is probably better skilled than he. Anyone ever read "The Tortoise and the Hare?" Exactly.

Oh, man! I never thought of that! That was brilliant.

IceFlash78 · 11-30-2005, 02:59 PM

Question... how do we really know that Usagi or Leo would even make the final two? There's so many ways that the contest could have gone, so many matchups that could have been possible.

I think it would have been obivous that either Usagi or Leo would ahve made into the top 4 if they had fought different opponents, but not both. Both of them were matched up against each other, so one of them would have lost. I'm going to say that Usagi would have won their matchup, but I don't know how he would ahve done in his next match. How would have he done against the Rhino guy, or any of the other fighers?

There's no way to know without replaying the Battle Nexus again and having Leo and Usagi match up again.

*heretic888* · 12-02-2005, 09:08 AM

I'm gonna go against the grain here and vote for Mikey.

Why??

Well, there are subtle little things from the show, of course. When the TMNT originally went to the underground city to investigate the crystals, all of them but Michelangelo were defeated by the Atlantean controlling the city. He's also, apparently, head-and-shoulders above Raphael, as we've been shown more than once. I also find it interesting that, unlike the others, the writers have never shown Michelangelo sparring one-on-one with Leonardo. That, at the very least, is very telling.

There's of course outside information, such as that from the original FoxBox website or the Palladium TMNT RPG, where it is made abundantly clear that Mike is far and away the most talented and physically capable of the four brothers (even though he doesn't train as hard). In the Palladium RPG, there is twice the difference between Mike and Leo's Physical Prowess (24 and 20, respectively) scores as there is between Leo and Raph's (20 and 18, respectively).

There's also the fact that, unlike most of the other posters on there, I actually know a thing or two about the martial arts. The charming storefront pseudo-budo that characters like Leonardo and Usagi emanate may impress most people, but it evokes little more than a casual chuckle out of me. Trust me when I say this, but somebody like Michelangelo understands and expresses the budo spirit far more than a no-nonsense workaholic like Leonardo. Of course, I'm sure all the rapid Leo fans with zero experience in the martial arts will chew me out for that, but anybody with some serious downtime in real budo will just casually shrug their shoulders and nod their heads.

Plus, the simple truth of the matter is, who would win in the Battle Nexus here! Just look at how the aforementioned characters fought in the tournament. Look at how they moved, the strategies and tactics they used, the feeling they fought with. Just sit back and look for a second. Forget Leo and Usagi, nobody in the tournament (with the notable exception of Splinter) even came close to operating on the level that Mikey did in his final match of the tournment or in his successive rematch with Kluh.

Just look at how he fought, its as simple as that.

Plus, Leonardo in his current "angry" state would get owned in a matter of seconds. Methinks he should go back and review his Musashi, as he's clearly missing a lot of what the eminent kengo had to say.

Laterz.

12-02-2005, 11:40 AM

I must say, that was a very well writen biased post, Heretic. You never fail to amuse me. *applauds*

Leonardo Mystic · 12-02-2005, 07:52 PM

Even I don't put Leonardo that high on a pedestal, and I love the guy to death.

I'll give kudos and credit to Mikey in "Grudge Match" because he really did come through there in the end, and kicked major ass. However, in the "Big Brawl" episodes, he only won by technicalities, and basically luck. Splinter conceded his battle to his son, which was touching and allowed him to advance. Then Michelangelo goaded Raph into knocking himself out in a wall, and never once fought. I think Mike was scared his older brother would actually beat him, so he used psychology on him. Clever, but I felt it was also dirty and underhanded.

Final match between him and Kluh was interrupted with the Drako/UN crap, so there was no real fight between them then. The only reason Mikey won was because after pulling his stuck nunchuck free from the concrete, it snapped back, and hit Kluh square in the head, which thus caused him to be KO'd. It was sheer luck he happened to be standing behind him. So Mike's win there was by a technicality.

I'm not dissing Michelangelo by any means. Though he's my least favorite, he does add light in their otherwise dismal lives. It'd be rather sad without him around to cheer them up in rough times. The guy has his strong points as they all do. He can really shine when he puts his mind to it, but see, therein lies the problem. He can easily be up to Raph's or even close behind Leo's level, but he's not motivated to do so. He mainly takes it with a kind of laid-back attitude. In the current season, Mikey's starting to step up, and he's being noticed for it. I am honestly pleased with his character's direction lately.

As for a match between Leo and Usagi, I think it'd be too close to really tell without seeing it played out. They are both very skilled swordsmen, dedicated, and disciplined. It could be noted that I did seem to think it appeared Usagi had a slight upperhand in their Battle Nexus match before they were prematurely eliminated.

**Jester** · 12-02-2005, 10:06 PM

I just realized, Leo and Usagi faced eachother so in essence who ever won would knock the other out. Then we'd have the final 7 and whoever won the Leo/Usagi bout, so Raph, Mikey, Kluh, Gen, Zat, La, and Dieskrad (Thank you Official Site). It's posible that whoever won between Usagi and Leo would have had to fight Gen (who was odd man out and got a bye) and I'm sure they would take him, knocking him out. I see the Finals as....who knows. All I know is Usagi and Leo wouldn't be the end all bout, since they fought eachother in an earlier round.
EDIT: So, Raph lost to Mike....La to Dieskrad, Zat to Kluh. Final 4....Usagi/Leo vs. Kluh. Mikey vs. Dieskrad. in the end....it's Leo or Usagi vs. Mikey. Mikey might be able to take them, but I think he's toast...

View Poll Results: Who would have been the Nexus Champ?
Leonardo	12	27.27%
Usagi	20	45.45%
Michelangelo would still have won	12	27.27%
Voters: 44. You may not vote on this poll

11-29-2005, 06:31 PM	#23
zkarlette Fashionably late Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: CA Posts: 4,146	Splinter had already won for sure I think leo would win but I really like how Leo and Usagi work as a team __________________ "If only we'd stop trying to be happy, we could have a pretty good time" E.W

11-29-2005, 08:01 PM	#26
Turtle Dove Stone Warrior Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: In Don's workshop Posts: 854	i love Leo- but Usagi looks like he would of won. Mikey won by dumb luck then won again cause Leo trained him-so maybe Leo woulda won? __________________ ]~You'll always be #1 in my heart~ 1..2...3...4..Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.....

11-29-2005, 10:50 PM	#30
Jester Rat-faced Dude-guy Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Arkansas Posts: 26,294	I voted Usagi....cause he is the most dedicated and seems to trump Leo in skill...but have we looked at why Laird and Lloyd made Mikey the victor in the first place? We all assume Mikey's a slacker, that in a fight that he might not defend himself like the uber-dedicated Leonardo. They wrote Mikey as the winner to show that any TMNT, in the right environment could shine in a fight...Mikey, under the influence of the shouting crowd, finally found the attention he seems to long for, and thus fought with more consentration so as not to lose that rush of the crowd....It was his environment to shine in...and he did....end of story. __________________ "Clearly, you're Ninja Turtling incorrectly." - Leo656

11-30-2005, 12:17 PM	#32
Buslady WingsOfDarkness! Perkele! Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: In 7803... Posts: 4,366	It'd be Leo..it's ALWAYS Leo...even we know Usagi is a better trained warrior. __________________

11-29-2005, 06:33 PM	#24
Duke Mad Scientist Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 1,913	I'm glad to see that Leonardo has almost caught up to Mikey.

11-29-2005, 08:08 PM	#27
Duke Mad Scientist Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 1,913	Is anyone else hoping the show actually gives us a New Nexus tournament so we can get a real answer to this question?

11-30-2005, 02:59 PM	#36
IceFlash78 Hench Mutant Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 302	Question... how do we really know that Usagi or Leo would even make the final two? There's so many ways that the contest could have gone, so many matchups that could have been possible. I think it would have been obivous that either Usagi or Leo would ahve made into the top 4 if they had fought different opponents, but not both. Both of them were matched up against each other, so one of them would have lost. I'm going to say that Usagi would have won their matchup, but I don't know how he would ahve done in his next match. How would have he done against the Rhino guy, or any of the other fighers? There's no way to know without replaying the Battle Nexus again and having Leo and Usagi match up again.

12-02-2005, 09:08 AM	#37
heretic888 Foot Elite Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 3,344	I'm gonna go against the grain here and vote for Mikey. Why?? Well, there are subtle little things from the show, of course. When the TMNT originally went to the underground city to investigate the crystals, all of them but Michelangelo were defeated by the Atlantean controlling the city. He's also, apparently, head-and-shoulders above Raphael, as we've been shown more than once. I also find it interesting that, unlike the others, the writers have never shown Michelangelo sparring one-on-one with Leonardo. That, at the very least, is very telling. There's of course outside information, such as that from the original FoxBox website or the Palladium TMNT RPG, where it is made abundantly clear that Mike is far and away the most talented and physically capable of the four brothers (even though he doesn't train as hard). In the Palladium RPG, there is twice the difference between Mike and Leo's Physical Prowess (24 and 20, respectively) scores as there is between Leo and Raph's (20 and 18, respectively). There's also the fact that, unlike most of the other posters on there, I actually know a thing or two about the martial arts. The charming storefront pseudo-budo that characters like Leonardo and Usagi emanate may impress most people, but it evokes little more than a casual chuckle out of me. Trust me when I say this, but somebody like Michelangelo understands and expresses the budo spirit far more than a no-nonsense workaholic like Leonardo. Of course, I'm sure all the rapid Leo fans with zero experience in the martial arts will chew me out for that, but anybody with some serious downtime in real budo will just casually shrug their shoulders and nod their heads. Plus, the simple truth of the matter is, who would win in the Battle Nexus here! Just look at how the aforementioned characters fought in the tournament. Look at how they moved, the strategies and tactics they used, the feeling they fought with. Just sit back and look for a second. Forget Leo and Usagi, nobody in the tournament (with the notable exception of Splinter) even came close to operating on the level that Mikey did in his final match of the tournment or in his successive rematch with Kluh. Just look at how he fought, its as simple as that. Plus, Leonardo in his current "angry" state would get owned in a matter of seconds. Methinks he should go back and review his Musashi, as he's clearly missing a lot of what the eminent kengo had to say. Laterz. __________________ "Ninpo began as training to become a moral people and to learn to endure in whatever social condition one is in; to know and accept one's fate, and to live for human beings and all other creatures. The person who masters all of these is a Ninja." (Masaaki Hatsumi)

12-02-2005, 11:40 AM	#38
Ryona Guest Posts: n/a	I must say, that was a very well writen biased post, Heretic. You never fail to amuse me. applauds

12-02-2005, 07:52 PM	#39
Leonardo Mystic Stone Warrior Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Georgia Posts: 904	Even I don't put Leonardo that high on a pedestal, and I love the guy to death. I'll give kudos and credit to Mikey in "Grudge Match" because he really did come through there in the end, and kicked major ass. However, in the "Big Brawl" episodes, he only won by technicalities, and basically luck. Splinter conceded his battle to his son, which was touching and allowed him to advance. Then Michelangelo goaded Raph into knocking himself out in a wall, and never once fought. I think Mike was scared his older brother would actually beat him, so he used psychology on him. Clever, but I felt it was also dirty and underhanded. Final match between him and Kluh was interrupted with the Drako/UN crap, so there was no real fight between them then. The only reason Mikey won was because after pulling his stuck nunchuck free from the concrete, it snapped back, and hit Kluh square in the head, which thus caused him to be KO'd. It was sheer luck he happened to be standing behind him. So Mike's win there was by a technicality. I'm not dissing Michelangelo by any means. Though he's my least favorite, he does add light in their otherwise dismal lives. It'd be rather sad without him around to cheer them up in rough times. The guy has his strong points as they all do. He can really shine when he puts his mind to it, but see, therein lies the problem. He can easily be up to Raph's or even close behind Leo's level, but he's not motivated to do so. He mainly takes it with a kind of laid-back attitude. In the current season, Mikey's starting to step up, and he's being noticed for it. I am honestly pleased with his character's direction lately. As for a match between Leo and Usagi, I think it'd be too close to really tell without seeing it played out. They are both very skilled swordsmen, dedicated, and disciplined. It could be noted that I did seem to think it appeared Usagi had a slight upperhand in their Battle Nexus match before they were prematurely eliminated. __________________ Last edited by Leonardo Mystic; 12-02-2005 at 07:58 PM.

12-02-2005, 10:06 PM	#40
Jester Rat-faced Dude-guy Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Arkansas Posts: 26,294	I just realized, Leo and Usagi faced eachother so in essence who ever won would knock the other out. Then we'd have the final 7 and whoever won the Leo/Usagi bout, so Raph, Mikey, Kluh, Gen, Zat, La, and Dieskrad (Thank you Official Site). It's posible that whoever won between Usagi and Leo would have had to fight Gen (who was odd man out and got a bye) and I'm sure they would take him, knocking him out. I see the Finals as....who knows. All I know is Usagi and Leo wouldn't be the end all bout, since they fought eachother in an earlier round. EDIT: So, Raph lost to Mike....La to Dieskrad, Zat to Kluh. Final 4....Usagi/Leo vs. Kluh. Mikey vs. Dieskrad. in the end....it's Leo or Usagi vs. Mikey. Mikey might be able to take them, but I think he's toast... __________________ "Clearly, you're Ninja Turtling incorrectly." - Leo656 Last edited by Jester; 12-02-2005 at 10:20 PM.