Deaths of the TMNT

[oldmanwinters]

The only thing I can speculate on with any degree of support is that Michelangleo is most likely to die first, according the morbid statement of Splinter in Tales 2.9

The obvious choice is that Raph's recklessness finally does him in first but I think he gains the strong mental fortitude through his fighting. I think old Raph would be significantly craftier than young Raph, as evidenced by his Future Archie counterpart.

[PAAATE]

Originally Posted by Cipher

I've read through Volume 4 at least a twice, and I just can't think of anything that implies Raph will outlive the others

I too read it once quickly and the only thing I found is that Splinter's spirit managed to calm down Raph after his continued mutation... You (Tristan) previously wrote something about Raph possibly calming down, and all that... At least I think you did, I didn't really feel like reading through the topic again before posting, but yeah... Anyway, I assume this isn't what you mean, since it would be kinda far-fetched to say that he'll outlive the others because of that...

Originally Posted by Cipher

For the sake of discussion (and this has become a pretty good one), why don't you share your epiphany with us?

Um.. Agreed.. I can't have any rest until I know wtf you're talking about

Originally Posted by TristanHuwJones

I want to make it VERY clear here that I'm not taking shots at you here, and there's no hard feelings or anything, this is just a difference of opinions. We're not calling each other idiots or anything here.

I'm aware of that. This is simply a debate we're having of clashing opinions.

I want to add that my opinions are strongly supported by logic and the general nature of things according to animal nature (humans included).

Raph has always been a rather difficult member of the team with his poor habits and behavior.
In the animal kingdom, if a member of a pack is being difficult, they typicly get disowned by the pack or killed by the alpha. And once the outcast is off on their own, they typicly die soon after because of their weak habits and recklessness.

I understand that your opinion that Raph will outlast the others is based off of some hunch that you personally believe to have encrypted in volume 4 (and I do believe also fueled by some degree of biased favoritism), but if you will, for a moment, let's step out of the realm of fantasy and take a walk in the realm of reality...
Realisticly speaking, warriors like Raph are the expendable type and typicaly die young. Raph's way of doing things, and his inability to function well in a team, as well as his reckless superman delusions that he can't be killed is actually going to get him killed.

I also want to add that, in the battlefeild, I do believe that the one to have the best odds to survive is Leo. You go on about Raph like he's the best in the group, but you and I both know very well that Leo is simply the superior warrior.
There's a reason why he's Splinter's star pupil and why Splinter asigned Leo as the clan leader.
Leo is far more skilled, far smarter, has keener senses, weilds far more deadlier weapons, and Leo is also a master tactition & strategist.
He's also the only one who's ever been a real threat to Shredder (killing him solo even), and Leo is a natural born warrior.
Also, the fact that Leo is the alpha male says enough, as the alpha of any pack is always the most powerful member. Otherwise they wouldn't be the alpha!

That said, I want to add that Don is most likely the second one to survive in the battlefeild.
Don and Raph basicly have the same amont of training. The way they use it is the real difference.
Raph's method is "As long as I'm agressive and forceful, I'll get through anything".
Don's method is "As long as I stay one step ahead of my oponent by making smart, careful dessions, I'll get through anything".
I think it's safe to say that if early humanity, as a whole, did things the way Raph would do, we'd still be in the stone age or extinct even.

[TristanHuwJones]

I don't want to to give away too much, because I'm working an idea up around it, but I'm talking about something that is biological. It has nothing to do with who the better fighter is in the end, or how someone lives there life. Ultimately it comes down to what Peter chooses to do with it, but it really is right there. Once you see it, and think about it, you'll see where I'm going... it has something to do with his secondary mutation.

[PAAATE]

Originally Posted by TristanHuwJones

I don't want to to give away too much, because I'm working an idea up around it, but I'm talking about something that is biological. It has nothing to do with who the better fighter is in the end, or how someone lives there life. Ultimately it comes down to what Peter chooses to do with it, but it really is right there. Once you see it, and think about it, you'll see where I'm going... it has something to do with his secondary mutation.

I really hope Peter reads this and just goes "Wtf is that Aussie talking about?"

[TristanHuwJones]

Originally Posted by PAAATE

I really hope Peter reads this and just goes "Wtf is that Aussie talking about?"

I think he might already know (considering he wrote it in there)...

[PAAATE]

Originally Posted by TristanHuwJones

I think he might already know (considering he wrote it in there)...

Yeah, but since you're not telling what it is I don't know whether it's something that he meant to write, or if it's something you found that you think is the key...

Buuut... I guess it's the former... Or at least you think it is... Now I'll read V4 again.. o.o

[RossMay]

While I follow the future snapshots and stories like everyone else and understand the interest, I think the true end of the turtles is something even farther away from the futures we've seen.

Being an optimist, while I know the turtles split up, I think there's something happy for them after what we've seen too.

[oldmanwinters]

Alright, Tristan, I've got a theory on why Raph will outlive the rest of the turtles. I'll PM you to see if I'm right.

[Cipher]

Tristan, I have also PM'd you to see if I've caught your line of thinking.

And holy hell, I just noticed that Don is blind in the epilogue of the Tales book. Or at least, he seems to be. He's the only one drawn without pupils, he's placing his finger on the book in the first page (a la braille), and at the end he walks with his cane far in front of him like a blind person.

[Candy Kappa]

reading the collected tales book, I thought the first one to hit the bucket was Raph, mike, leo and then Don.

but I don't think they'll had an unatural death, I just think they'll outlived each other, like Raph getting in his late 70-80's, mikey round his 90's leo get over 100 and donny might get 120's or something.

It also (for me) it seems like Don are passing away when he falls to sleep when Renet are there.

Leo dying of a heartattack would be fitting since he was more like Splinter.

Raph would go grinning, it'd suit him to die smilling regreting nothing.

[discordiatookie]

Y'know, I never hit upon Don being blind on they Tales frontispieces. I can see how it can be interpreted that way, but i'm not 100% convinced. And in my opinion, just because Raph looks younger than the others in the simulation, doesn't mean he died years before the others. Perhaps its based on when Don seen him last. Or, for all we know, a side effect from going from Gamera Raph back to normal.

Also, and this is from memory, (i'm at my sisters and don't have the book in front of me,) but we don't know for sure that the simulation is based on what the turtles looked like when, or around they died. Could it be that it was a simulation of an event that actually happened? The last time that they were all together, happy and alive? Their final reunion?

Its all about interpretation, I believe.

[Rooish]

Woah! I had to bump this because it's super intriguing.

Tristin, I currently agree with Cipher for all the reasons he mentioned, but I will read Vol. 4 to find your clue. Will someone PM me, though, if it's in issues 22, 25, or 26? Because I don't own those so I shouldn't bother.

[plastroncafe]

Okay first off I haven't re-read the whole series in a very long time, so it's more likely than not that my facts and memories are all...messed up.

It was always my belief that Raph outlives everyone. Not because of some secondary mutation that's only now seeing print, and not because he's a better fighter than his brothers, but because the jerk is just too stubborn to die.

Time and again we get images of future Raph, and every single one of them, Archie included, have him missing an eye and horribly scarred. In two instances we see him in the Bayou wearing a straw hat.

Why is he there when we have images of Don in Japan and Leo living in New York? Because Mike is the first to die. How he dies, I have no idea. But in life he is one of the few things that keep Don, Leo, and Raph together. Without Mike the three of them would drift off without even noticing they're doing it. They're just...too different, there's nothing to ground them.

I really do need to re-read the books to see about this Don being Blind thing. I love little Easter Egg touches in books.

My question for the the thread is this:
Do you consider the RPGs to be canon source material?

[Rooish]

I consider the character descriptions to be fairly spot-on in the RPG source material. They could always be expanded on, of course, but they are a fairly good foundation for the character's personalities. Some of the ability scores are a bit wonky, though. From what I recall, Mike's "physical attractiveness" score is like 15 and Raph's is 5, or something. Dude, they are giant mutated Turtles. Except for a few extra scars here or there, they probably would look about the same! I can't imagine that much variation in attractiveness.

Anyway, this speculation thing isn't working very well. Back in the day, when I imagined writing some sort of TMNT fan fiction, I thought the death order would be Leo first (in some self-sacrificing or against unbeatable odds way), then Mike (probably some accident), then Raph (he doesn't have much to live for with Mike and Leo gone), then Don. I do think the order implied in the collected Tales Vol. 1 indicates the order is Raph, then Mike, then Leo, then Don. I can definitely see why Don and Leo would live a long time.

It's not implausible to me that Mike dies first, though, because we haven't seen much of his future. I hope they all live to at least 100 though.

I wouldn't have expected Raph to live longest, but maybe his discontented spirit would keep him fighting to live for a very long time. I'd love to know Tristan's theory but don't really know if I could stomach reading Vol. 4 all the way through (not that I dislike it, but there's a lot of different plot threads and I don't know in which one I would find this clue to Raph's longevity. Or immortality? Someone's gotta tell me).

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

It was always my belief that Raph outlives everyone. Not because of some secondary mutation that's only now seeing print, and not because he's a better fighter than his brothers, but because the jerk is just too stubborn to die.

Buddy, are you a complete newbie to TMNT, or just delusional?
Every TMNT fan knows that Leo is the best fighter. This is fact and this is canon.
My god... pay attention.

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by Ryona

Buddy, are you a complete newbie to TMNT, or just delusional?
Every TMNT fan knows that Leo is the best fighter. This is fact and this is canon.
My god... pay attention.

7/10
Cute, but overall just average.

[Rooish]

Originally Posted by Ryona

Buddy, are you a complete newbie to TMNT, or just delusional?
Every TMNT fan knows that Leo is the best fighter. This is fact and this is canon.
My god... pay attention.

Um ... you notice how he said "NOT because Raph is the best fighter"?

Her wording suggested that she was implying that Raph is the better fighter than his brothers, which is false.

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

and not because he's a better fighter than his brothers,