Is Splinter A Hero?

[Killer Moth]

Originally Posted by Candy Kappa

This is one of the things I really like about (Mirage) Splinter, he trains the turtles for a purpose, a and during that time he developed a fatherly relationship and feelings for the turtles.

I don't disagree with you, but he made his choice with the assassin rising aspect. Even though, it is as you said, "a vile wicked purpose spun by vengeance." In turn, fortunately, as you also said, he did develop a fatherly relationship with the Turtles and later with April. (Didn't she at the end of City At War regard him as a father?) Either way, I now tend to regard him in a more anti-hero light, as his later characterization compensates nicely with his early darker characterization, etc.

Anyway, indeed about Saki and Nagi. Why Mirage never explored that, when they occasionally addressed the Turtles' younger past, it is beyond me. Especially as Shredder would become so popular over the years. Depending on interpretation, it could be that both sides just come off rather negatively in reaction to each other and whether they had enough reasonable justification to attack one another. Nagi was physically abusive toward Shen, then Yoshi may have went too far with killing Nagi, then Saki killed in revenge, then Splinter and the Turtles did their thing, and so forth.

Or to put it in another way, each side prove to be both right and wrong, which may have been the real point.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by Candy Kappa

why is that? It's just a cycle of death and violence.

Take it from Saki's point of view: Someone who was supposed to be a trusted member of the clan killed his beloved big brother and ran away.

The TMNT and Shredder don't live in established society, but rather outside just looking at it from outside, (ctually like criminal motorcycle clubs). As Casey Jones is a vigilante ("outlaw hero"), their only true link to established society is April (and in the 1987 show even Irma). Even if most TMNT versions tone this down in the future, with the TMNT entering society as heroes.

So what modern Western society think it's right or wrong doesn't make much sense, if they grow up with the codes of Ancient Japan.

[Candy Kappa]

Originally Posted by Swedenfan 1982

The TMNT and Shredder don't live in established society, but rather outside just looking at it from outside, (ctually like criminal motorcycle clubs). As Casey Jones is a vigilante ("outlaw hero"), their only true link to established society is April (and in the 1987 show even Irma). Even if most TMNT versions tone this down in the future, with the TMNT entering society as heroes.

So what modern Western society think it's right or wrong doesn't make much sense, if they grow up with the codes of Ancient Japan.

this makes no sense as a reply to my post.

[Killer Moth]

Originally Posted by Swedenfan 1982

The TMNT and Shredder don't live in established society, but rather outside just looking at it from outside, (ctually like criminal motorcycle clubs). As Casey Jones is a vigilante ("outlaw hero"), their only true link to established society is April (and in the 1987 show even Irma). Even if most TMNT versions tone this down in the future, with the TMNT entering society as heroes.

So what modern Western society think it's right or wrong doesn't make much sense, if they grow up with the codes of Ancient Japan.

Or, to put it another way with that term, the Turtles and Splinter started out as ninjas, but later became samurais of a sort. Leo carries the samurai tenets most, but everyone else more or less adheres to it.

While you're technically correct, in that we're talking about animal mutants vs. a ninja organization and outside the mainstream, they don't transcend basic morality, either. Unless the whole lesson is two wrongs don't make a right (what Nagi did vs. what Yoshi did), or they do, but it's a slow process.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by Killer Moth

Or, to put it another way with that term, the Turtles and Splinter started out as ninjas, but later became samurais of a sort. Leo carries the samurai tenets most, but everyone else more or less adheres to it.

While you're technically correct, in that we're talking about animal mutants vs. a ninja organization and outside the mainstream, they don't transcend basic morality, either. Unless the whole lesson is two wrongs don't make a right (what Nagi did vs. what Yoshi did), or they do, but it's a slow process.

Samurais? You must be talking Mirage.

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

Originally Posted by Swedenfan 1982

Samurais? You must be talking Mirage.

For the record, ninjas were originally special forces, part of the regular military forces of Japanese warlords. Later on, the ninjas would become mercenary forces for hire, living in their own provinces.

[Sage Ninja]

this topic makes me miss TMNT dissected by Vicky Hall, she had quite a unique character study of OT SPlinter, of not being such a upstanding father figure.