Corrections officer by Day, Vigilante by night

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by Powder

I do appreciate the point you're making, but in this case, it's not really applicable. The two schmucks who wrote it had a lot of terrible ideas that made it in, don't know how to write dialogue or seal gaps, & at every turn seem to make it abundantly clear how little they know/love TMNT.

Absolutely nothing about this project or the previous movie would incentivize anyone involved to know or love TMNT. Or even to stop to think for a moment about what a weird and politically awful choice making a presumably sympathetic character a combination prison guard/vigilante is. There's no reason to rethink the first, easily digestible idea that lets the script work.

Every moment they could be pouring more effort into this assembly-line script built around toy-advertising and flashy effects, they could/have to be spending two more on all the other scripts they'll touch this year that may never be made, that may need rewrites based on all sorts of executive requests, etc. The system does not reward caring.

My fault is not with the writers, who have a hard job and are molded by large studio systems to work that way. It's hard to say it's even with the executive producers and studio heads who spearhead projects like this (although it absolutely is). It's pretty squarely with audiences who support it again and again.

No one in this thread should be pre-maturely dumping on the writers and still purchase a ticket to this film.

EDIT --

Or maybe they really think prison-guard Casey is an awesome idea because it's a hell of a lot more filmable for this kind of lowest-common-denominator movie than Casey being a pastiche vigilante who's watched too many movies. Maybe they're terrible writers and this is truly reflective of their interests and the best of their abilities. Either way, nothing is encouraging spending any more effort on this than has already been spent.

[ToTheNines]

I thought he was just a security guard in Blue Door.

[Powder]

Originally Posted by Cipher

*snip*

Lemmie just say this, having seen you post earlier today that you've not watched the film, take it from me, if/when you do, this defense for those two hacks will have been your most shameful moment. I don't care what mandates, pressure, or paychecks they had. It was unforgivably bad for many reasons that they themselves are responsible for.

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

I thought he was just a security guard in Blue Door.

Oh, yeah, that's right. My bad. Still, it comes to mind for him being in a position of loosely governmental authority (he was guarding that testing facility last time).

[Cipher]

I don't know if I'll ever see the film, because I'm not that much of a masochist and I really don't want to support it even on a streaming service, but I just find something fundamentally wrong-headed about attacking the writers when they're the bottom rung in the system and everything about their work demands they pump out many, many dumb, quick scripts each season.

Not that there aren't hacky writers. It's just really hard to blame them for a number of reasons related to how films like this work.

(he was guarding that testing facility last time).

That's a significantly less-bad idea, so somehow it got even worse this time around, but again--if it's easy, there's no reason for anyone involved to care.

Maybe we can talk about how f*cking problematic it is that Casey's a prison-guard/vigilante now though, and anticipate the many, many thinkpieces on this that will come out if this movie sees even a modicum of success.

[Powder]

Originally Posted by Cipher

I just find something fundamentally wrong-headed about attacking the writers when they're the bottom rung in the system and everything about their work demands they pump out many, many dumb, quick scripts each season.

If you knew the history, what kinda douche bags these guys are, you'd make an exception. Take my word, man.

Maybe we can talk about how f*cking problematic it is that Casey's a prison-guard/vigilante now though, and anticipate the many, many thinkpieces on this that will come out if this movie sees even a modicum of success.

By all means! Everything is problematic.

[Galactus]

Originally Posted by Cipher

Or maybe they really think prison-guard Casey is an awesome idea because it's a hell of a lot more filmable for this kind of lowest-common-denominator movie than Casey being a pastiche vigilante who's watched too many movies. Maybe they're terrible writers and this is truly reflective of their interests and the best of their abilities. Either way, nothing is encouraging spending any more effort on this than has already been spent.

The whole idea that Casey is a vigilante because he watched too much TV thing has never been his origin in any version. Sure Kevin Eastman humorously phrases his concept of a vigilante that doesn't need a traditional origin. I doubt that to be his actual origin otherwise..y'know he would have done it.

It's strange to me people accept that as his origin even though it isn't in any version of the canon and I think it goes down to the belief that Eastman and Laird played everything as a goof. The little joke doodle that became a pop culture phenomenon, the parody that became bigger than what it was poking fun at. I'm not saying the early TMNT comics were the most well thought out stories ever (although as they developed they did what I would say objectively good stories) but they from concept to print they did develop their ideas beyond the initial humor based concepts otherwise Shredder would still be called "Grate Man" and the turtles would have their weapons strapped to their arms.

Now all this being said it wouldn't be too hard to make an origin like that for Casey and make it work. It strikes me that perhaps Steve Barron was channeling it in the deleted scene in the 1990 movie were Casey is flipping through tv channels and every news report he finds is about violence and decides to do something about it. Wouldn't that be easy to film?

Not involved in the plot enough? Well how about taking the only origin the character has ever had in the canon involving the Purple Dragons. You can easily say Bebop and Rocksteady are members of that gang. Given how they are saying they are taking elements of everything and being more faithful than the previous movie this one was handed to them on a silver platter.

As a fan I appreciate there's aspects of TMNT that on the surface seem a bit too strange to adapt on film without a lot of thought and effort but Casey Jones isn't one of them. I'd say he's the simplest aspect of the whole canon, the fact they this character right speaks volumes about incorrect this sequel will be.

[DarkFell]

The "I'm Casey Jones the Corrections Officer"approach, still sounds weird to me.

The tweet that he shot back at an individual who also wasn't impressed with the movie and what direction that it's taking (the "You'll get used to it" response that another poster left on the TMNT 2 Discussion Thread), has left me even less impressed w/ Stephen Amell.

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by Galactus

The whole idea that Casey is a vigilante because he watched too much TV thing has never been his origin in any version. Sure Kevin Eastman humorously phrases his concept of a vigilante that doesn't need a traditional origin. I doubt that to be his actual origin otherwise..y'know he would have done it.

No, but for years and years that was all we had on the guy, and for the tone of the series and Casey's character, it worked.

[plastroncafe]

I'm looking at pages 134 and 135 of the TMNT Ultimate Edition #1.
First appearance of Casey Jones. He's sitting in his bachelor pad watching a cop show with a protagonist named T.J., which I'm going to assume is T.J. Hooker. A police procedural starring William Shatner and Heather Locklear. Not exactly what I would consider great television, but there's no accounting for taste.

He's talking back to the screen cheering on the death of bad guys.
Third panel, page 135:

Geez, those guys have the right idea: get the scum and dirtballs off the streets! But there's so much scum...and so few of us good guys!

Next panel.

The cops can't handle it -- they need help! My help!

Next panel.

To defend the citizens of this fair city from vile scum that sneaks about my city!

Yeah, the city...my city, home of Casey Jones!

Next panel

It's a tough job, but someone's gotta do it!

So how exactly is it that Casey Jones' origin was never, just a guy watching bad television who becomes a vigilante?

[Galactus]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

So how exactly is it that Casey Jones' origin was never, just a guy watching bad television who becomes a vigilante?

You got me there and I should probably have refreshed myself on Raphael #1 before typing ad that part slipped my mind completely (maybe I should again before posting this) but still I think when people recite the whole idea that Casey became a vigilante from watching "too much bad tv" they mean it literally rather than say it motivated him in that particular issue.

Even as early as his second appearance TMNT #10 there's a mention of his job as a bouncer I think we're supposed to assume that he's been a vigilante for a while and that his meeting with Raph wasn't his first time out.

Originally Posted by Cipher

No, but for years and years that was all we had on the guy, and for the tone of the series and Casey's character, it worked.

And could work for a movie. What I thought was a reasonable extrapolation on Barron's part Plastroncafe has reminded me was another direct lift from the comics. In a movie series which has had people involved complain about origins that are "too complex" you'd think a simple one would suffice. Of course I think we all know that the Yoshi/Saki backstory wasn't all that complicated but it just wasn't in their wheel house. I think it was Ross May that said the production outright hated the origin even when Mirage was still involved and certainly what they came up with was even more complex and stupid than a rat learning ninjutsu.

By the same token I think they just shut themselves off from Casey Jones backstory (both of them) from the get-go and want their Sam Witwicky-esque Casey Jones by hook or by crook.

[plastroncafe]

Given the less-than-straight-line of Mirage canon I could totally buy his first outing as vigilante was prior to Raphael #1. He does grab for that hockey mask awful quick. So I could totally see it as a: Let's go to work, rather than a montage of discovery.

Plus... there's the whole roof running like a ninja thing, which I don't think is a skill one hones while bouncing, but then again...I've never been to Stucky's.

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

Plus... there's the whole roof running like a ninja thing, which I don't think is a skill one hones while bouncing, but then again...I've never been to Stucky's.

I thought it was Torchy's? Did I make that up?

Originally Posted by Galactus

And could work for a movie.

Yeah, but a better movie. A movie that could weirdly conceivably be made in an era when films like Kick-Ass and Deadpool play just fine with general audiences. But not the stupid, easy spectacle film Platinum Dunes wants to make, which is also successful.

Maybe in ten years. Even then, probably not with Nickelodeon at the helm.

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by Cipher

I thought it was Torchy's? Did I make that up?

Oh crap! You are absolutely right! It is Torchy's.
Where the hell did I get Stucky's from....cripes.

[Xav]

Originally Posted by Galactus

Likewise by the time we always meet Casey he's been a vigilante for a while and we can buy that he's set in his ways enough so doesn't upgrade his weapons or ways of fighting even when in more bizarre situations he finds himself allied with the turtles but a more stable Casey just starting out would have no reason not pick up one of Don's gadgets or learn ninjutsu?

But not always. I mean in IDW and Nick we see Casey just starting out.

Originally Posted by Galactus

Well how about taking the only origin the character has ever had in the canon involving the Purple Dragons.

But we have seen other origins, in IDW he had an abusive father and in Nick he just wanted to protect his family. So I don't think we necessary have to do the whole Purple Dragons burn down his fathers store plot.

[Technogeek29]

Originally Posted by Xav

But not always. I mean in IDW and Nick we see Casey just starting out.But we have seen other origins, in IDW he had an abusive father and in Nick he just wanted to protect his family. So I don't think we necessary have to do the whole Purple Dragons burn down his fathers store plot.

They could have spun it from there. Have his shop burned down by thugs making it hard for his family to get by but Casey eventually succeeded in life and moves on. But learns the system is corrupt and people like Bebop & Rocksteady aren't gonna learn their lessons Cops aren't really the good guys he thinks they are. So he goes on the self destructive path of a vigilante with very unresolved anger issues and Raph is the one who eventually saves him for himself.

Yeah its ripping off Batman but whatever at least it would be something I can see from a version of Casey. If I was writing it I wouldn't give him his job back, but Hollywood gotta tie a bow for the kiddies so he "somehow" gets his job back.

[DioLeo451]

Originally Posted by DarkFell

The "I'm Casey Jones the Corrections Officer"approach, still sounds weird to me.

The tweet that he shot back at an individual who also wasn't impressed with the movie and what direction that it's taking (the "You'll get used to it" response that another poster left on the TMNT 2 Discussion Thread), has left me even less impressed w/ Stephen Amell.

You're expecting him to agree completely with him and say ''yeah this movie sucks'' ''Casey is butchered'' ''I shouldn't be doing this'' I'm pretty sure he was joking because they continued to talk afterwards unless that dude is incredibly sensitive

[Galactus]

Originally Posted by Xav

But not always. I mean in IDW and Nick we see Casey just starting out.But we have seen other origins, in IDW he had an abusive father and in Nick he just wanted to protect his family. So I don't think we necessary have to do the whole Purple Dragons burn down his fathers store plot.

The IDW series spins the 4kids origin with the twist that Hun the guy who abused Jones' family is Casey's dad himself.

The Nick version is the weakest iteration of the character so far and I know I'm not alone in thinking that. It's hard to pinpoint why but I think it's partly because he's a teenager and it's hard to take a kid seriously as a street vigilante without some special skill or reason to be one. April has her mind powers/kunoichi training and her father was kidnapped starting so we buy why and how she's involved.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm remembering incorrectly but it's not like Casey started out a vigilante on the show. He was just always sniffing around April and when she get dragged into her conflicts just by being there. They did an homage to his and Raph's friendship in other versions but that is forgotten now and he doesn't really act like Casey nor does he have any reason to. I was hoping the introduction of Hun in the show might retroactively give Casey some history that would gave Casey an extra layer he needs but no such luck yet.

[Chabrendeki]

Originally Posted by Galactus

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm remembering incorrectly but it's not like Casey started out a vigilante on the show. He was just always sniffing around April and when she get dragged into her conflicts just by being there. They did an homage to his and Raph's friendship in other versions but that is forgotten now and he doesn't really act like Casey nor does he have any reason to. I was hoping the introduction of Hun in the show might retroactively give Casey some history that would gave Casey an extra layer he needs but no such luck yet.

If memory serves, as he was introduced, he started as a vigilante. He is concerned about the mutants showing up everywhere, and decides to take up the fight to protect the neighbourhood.

[slingtheory]

The main idea for me is that regardless of the different motivations he's been given over the years, Casey Jones is just a street smart guy who thinks crime sucks and takes it upon himself to do something about it. He's never really been type to follow rules or regulations or do pretty much most of what you'd have to do to be made an officer of anything.

[DarkFell]

Originally Posted by DioLeo451

You're expecting him to agree completely with him and say ''yeah this movie sucks'' ''Casey is butchered'' ''I shouldn't be doing this'' I'm pretty sure he was joking because they continued to talk afterwards unless that dude is incredibly sensitive

I read it as Amell coming off as a bit of an ***hole towards someone else's opinion, and I sincerely hope that Stephen handles comments more professionally.

Instead of "You'll get used to it", his statement could have just as easily been "I admit that this is a different concept for the character that I play as. The directors wanted to take him in a different direction for the sequel and.."

Basically a condensed version of the sentence above, but more tactful towards the readers.