New Ep Discussion: "Dragon's Rising"

[Aska_Badoura]

Hmm... I actually noticed it some episode ago, but I noticed it again here... April's eyes have turned blue this season. They were originally green.

I haven't noticed a change... they still look green to me.

Why the shell where Leo and Raph concerned about parachutes when they must've had at least 8 hoverboards behind them?

I assumed the Purple Dragon guys took them with them (or would have if the Turtles hadn't knocked them out of the plane), strapped them to the crates or something... they're not visible anywhere that I can see...?

What bothered me... is that Leo didn't come back down with that guy he had tied up. He didn't just leave him there, did he?

However I will say this, even though he was harsh and his expectations for particular missions out come where unrealistic, I rather agree with him. Not on every thing but i could really hear the deep frustration in his voice when he was going off on his brothers and I sympathise with him. He was still way off base with practically calling his brothers amertuars though, but he was right.

But, wasn't that basically all he was saying? He accused his brothers of only playing at ninja, rather than being ninja. That they weren't good enough to absolutely vanquish any and all opposition, because they just weren't trying. And that's all false. There's only so much four ninja and a vigilante can do. If you mean he was right that they were losing... well, yes, that's true. And I can see how that would really get to him. But Donatello was right: they did their best. They can get better, but not perfect. They can never be perfect. And, the way Leo's been feeling lately, that's not an acceptable answer to him.

BUT... I think it was quite clear that no one saw this as a game. Also, Don had a good point. They did their best. Therefore, I think it was very condescending of Leo to assume that his brothers did not take the matter seriously.

Were any of the four of them goofing off during the mission? No. In fact, I was rather surprised by Mikey's seriousness. He was giving commands, taking initiative, being responsible. That's huge. How was Leo unable to see this?

*nods furiously in agreement*

If Leo is pissing you off, then rejoice, for the writers are manipulating you, the audience, just as they intended!

May I never be above the manipulation of good writing. It's so very much working!! *very fake grin* Poor Leo...

Am I the only one who noticed Casey's father in this cartoon looks NOTHING like his comic book counterpart. In the Dreamwave comics, he's a fat, bald man.

Um... oops (I haven't read the Dreamwave). Well, that happens when it's a different team... (Gargoyles fans: the Marvel comic had Beth Maza make an appearance, before she'd appeared on the show... she was a club-hopping ditz, as opposed to the level-headed gal she ended up as when she finally appeared in an ep. She looked the same, at least... they must have already done the character design. But, it is kind of unfortunate when that kind of stuff happens.)

I thought Casey would've been a 70s kiddo...or 80s...not 50s..

*shrugs* It was weird, but maybe it was just a generalized "this happened a long time ago", and putting it an earlier era gave it that feel. I dunno.

[Zachatello00]

Splinter said "Suckers" That is so my word!

[J Legault]

Since the Turtles know where PD's Hideout is, I wouldn't be surprised if later in the season they try to turn the place upside down.

I mean they did the same to Shredder's HQ and his Second one.

It's cool to see Hun turn the PDs from Street Punks to Criminal Operating Member guys.

I gotta admit that the HQ is really nicely designed in a way.

[Jester]

Does anyone else think the "TMNT breach inpregnable fortress" plot device has been done to death?

[longing for leo]

Did anyone else notice that when Casey & Raph (injured) fell off the truck & towards the Battle Shell, Leo called out "Casey!!!" in obvious concern, but said/did nada for Raph, his bro! & no one else called out for Raph either. It just felt like the writers were trying to say something. Maybe it was just that the turtles know that Raph has enough ninja skills to be ok in that situation, but that Casey might not. I don't know, it just bothered me. (hehe, Leo should have said: "Raph! Brother! NOOOOOooooooo!!!!!!) jk

Yeah, Leo kinda bothered me in this ep too...but as someone already pointed out, the writers are doing this for a reason. We're supposed to go along with Mikey & Klunk. I wonder what Raph was thinking when he not only let Leo's outburst slip w/out starting a fight, but all but agreed with him? Perhaps he's always felt the same way in the face of "failure." He has always had that thing with retreating...Maybe he really is the only one who has a clue as to what Leo's feeling/thinking. I hope they have a heart to heart, cause if they don't, I bet they'll push each other to a fight. Wait, on second thought, Splinter should understand Leo just as much as Raph, just in a different way. Meh, so Leo should talk to both of them. Oh & yes, this ep has renewed my love in Sensei. He's so cool when he's having fun.

[iris]

Oh righteous character-building eppy! I would genuflect before thee but I'm afraid to come out from under my bed in case Leo gets a second wind for his scary lecture mode and comes after me for goofing around.

I really liked this ep, despite the fact that I found the editing/timing a bit choppy.

Originally Posted by Sage Ninja

Donatello was kick ass in with his driving that turtle is awsome, I was also a little surpriced by how he just shot at the truck behind him that shot would have killed those guys and he knew it! It Donatello is no light weight.

Donnie's driving was majorly kick-ass!

But I can only imagine what the body count on this ep would have been if the writers didn't have to play nice for the kiddies' sake. Even so, Donnie launching a HUGE rocket into the cabin of a truck struck me as peculiar. Maybe it was just me, but I thought that rocket was about 20 times larger than it should have been drawn... which is either humorous or quite disturbing, considering Donnie must have built the thing!

Originally Posted by Machias Banshee

I finally saw the ep, and all I gotta say is..

"$#%& you, Leo"

Yeah, pretty much! I completely agree with Leonardo's message of "we need to do better than our current best"... but I also think he needs to be slapped upside the head. The way things are going, it looks like he might end up knocking some sense into himself.

Originally Posted by Fledermaus

Were any of the four of them goofing off during the mission? No. In fact, I was rather surprised by Mikey's seriousness. He was giving commands, taking initiative, being responsible. That's huge.

Think that was intentional to make sure Leo looked like a complete jerk? Any goofin' at all would have undermined that. It did my heart good to see them show Mikey take an interest, no matter what the motive.

Originally Posted by longing for leo

Did anyone else notice that when Casey & Raph (injured) fell off the truck & towards the Battle Shell, Leo called out "Casey!!!" in obvious concern, but said/did nada for Raph, his bro! & no one else called out for Raph either. It just felt like the writers were trying to say something. Maybe it was just that the turtles know that Raph has enough ninja skills to be ok in that situation, but that Casey might not.

I noticed. I agree... Leo was calling attention on Casey because Leo sees him needing the most help.

Speaking of noticing small things, did you notice the ScoobyDoo-esque bit earlier in the ep when they were sneaking around, hid behind a crate, and then popped and down? Does anyone else find it strange that the guys bring Casey along when they're doing their sneaky ninja hiding-two-feet-from-the-enemy thing? How is Casey good at that? haha

Originally Posted by Sage Ninja

Good episode, the preview completley flew over my head, but it amused me, I haven't seen eppy with Nobody in it yet. Should be interesting.

I didn't even realize that was a preview... I just thought it was an amusing something they put in to advertise TMNT... and boy were they! They ran that spot at least 3 more times before cartoon time ended.

[DIrishB]

This episode was ok, but not one of the better episodes of the show by far. I found it a bit slowly paced and sort of lacking a point in terms of the overall storyline of the show, but it was a good episode of character development for Casey. I loved the Splinter poker scene, good to see Klunk again, some decent fighting on the plane and truck, and was a bit impressed with Leo's outburst (I haven't seen any of Season 4 or the end of Season 3 yet because I used to work on Saturday mornings and haven't picked up the last two DVDs for Season 3, so this was my first exposure to the new, more Raph-like Leo).

I'll give this episode a 7 out of 10.

[Katie]

Originally Posted by Buslady

I thought Casey would've been a 70s kiddo...or 80s...not 50s..eerrr unlesss im misunderstanding the post hehehee

Yeah I was just picking on the Father knows best look they gave the family. I figure Casey is about my age there on the show....which would make him a 70's kid

[stege-chan]

Originally Posted by Katie

Yeah I was just picking on the Father knows best look they gave the family. I figure Casey is about my age there on the show....which would make him a 70's kid

Whoopsie. What I meant by my original post way back on page 1 (and I think this originated from me) was that the dress Casey's mom was wearing, and her hairstyle, was very reminicint of the 1950's-1970's. I was raised in the 80s too. *noddle*

[Masked Ninja]

Oh... another random thing I wanted to point out. I watched this episode with my friend from another dorm, and she laughed out loud at Mikey in the beginning. She's done the same thing with her dad before - putting comic books in the little plastic sleeves and sorting them.

Klunk looked a lot better in this episode too. I mean, the design was still annoying, but at least they moved him around more like a cat.

*sigh* Leo, Leo, Leo... I did notice they left him behind when he walked off. It was only the other three who went with Casey to the cemetery. Once again, I don't mind the character development, but I'd like to see more of the old Leo before too long. Mostly I just cringe every time he goes all "grr," because I know they're building up to something. Will his attitude get them in trouble? There is such a thing as "overprotective" and I'm afraid for all of them.

[DIrishB]

Originally Posted by Katie

Yeah I was just picking on the Father knows best look they gave the family. I figure Casey is about my age there on the show....which would make him a 70's kid

According to the filecards that came with the toys, Casey is 24 and April is 23, if I recall correctly. And of course all the turtles are 15, though its very possible they've all aged a year or two since the beginning of the show.

[longing for leo]

*sigh* Leo, Leo, Leo... I don't mind the character development, but I'd like to see more of the old Leo before too long. Mostly I just cringe every time he goes all "grr," because I know they're building up to something. Will his attitude get them in trouble? There is such a thing as "overprotective" and I'm afraid for all of them.

I'm not afraid for any of the turtles, cause they're indispensable. I'm just afraid for Leo's psyche. If he thinks that he's caused one of their--er, premature demises, then he's gonna go crazy, or turn into goo, or both. Although, I am a little worried for Splinter. I mean, he is old... & we're already into season 4...& I could see Leo messing up & Splinter taking the hit to fix it by saving his sons. I don't know guys, I just hope that Leo only thinks someone's hurt & it makes him realize what's truly important...LOVE & HIS FAMILY! Then he can focus, not dwell on revenge but on how to best help his "remaining" family members, see the "dead" one be ok, & smother him w/ hugs & apologies, & we see a CaW/UN Leo/Splinter & his bros moment. That would make me happy. I just miss the love!

[iris]

Originally Posted by longing for leo

I'm not afraid for any of the turtles, cause they're indispensable. I'm just afraid for Leo's psyche. If he thinks that he's caused one of their--er, premature demises, then he's gonna go crazy, or turn into goo, or both. Although, I am a little worried for Splinter. I mean, he is old... & we're already into season 4...& I could see Leo messing up & Splinter taking the hit to fix it by saving his sons. I don't know guys, I just hope that Leo only thinks someone's hurt & it makes him realize what's truly important.

Personally, I think Leo is doing decently well for a 16-year-old guy with a lot of pressure on him. He's just been frustrated. I haven't gotten the impression that he needs someone to die so that he can "snap out of it." He needs to find his faith again... hopefully all this brooding eventually lead to it! At least he seems to be ready to start leading again, temper tantrum notwithstanding. Baby steps?

Splinter is old, but he's probably not THAT old in this series.

Spoiler:

In the TMNT comic series, Splinter dies of natural causes. In relation to the events of the current animated series, this occurs at least a decade down the road. At this point, I feel it unlikely that the writers would have Splinter die any other way.

[Fledermaus]

Originally Posted by iris

Personally, I think Leo is doing decently well for a 16-year-old guy with a lot of pressure on him. He's just been frustrated. I haven't gotten the impression that he needs someone to die so that he can "snap out of it." He needs to find his faith again... hopefully all this brooding eventually lead to it! At least he seems to be ready to start leading again, temper tantrum notwithstanding. Baby steps?[/SPOILER]

Unfortunately, "human" or "naturally imperfect" is NEVER good enough for the hero.

Just heard something REALLY interesting about heroes in myths (this applies to TV, movies, and books--any form of storytelling). Applies to both Leo and Casey. I wish to discuss it. Sorry I can't go into it now, but hold that thought iris. Will be back, possibly after thanksgiving.

[Raph's Girl]

Originally Posted by stege-chan

that the dress Casey's mom was wearing, and her hairstyle, was very reminicint of the 1950's-1970's. I was raised in the 80s too. *noddle*

50's hairstyle for Mamma Jones, yet Casey Sr had 70's style elvis hair.

[iris]

Originally Posted by Raph's Girl

50's hairstyle for Mamma Jones, yet Casey Sr had 70's style elvis hair.

Well, see, what's going on here is that Casey Jones is actually Bishop's illegitimate time-displaced grandson, but one of Captain Janeway's transdimensional temporal incursions changed the timeline so that he grew up both in the 60s and the 80s. o_O

Or...... maybe the animation team made a cultural mistake.

Or...... maybe Casey just had weird parents. That might explain a few things, actually.

Originally Posted by Fledermaus

Unfortunately, "human" or "naturally imperfect" is NEVER good enough for the hero.

I was hoping people would step back and look at Leo in context for a second.

Just heard something REALLY interesting about heroes in myths (this applies to TV, movies, and books--any form of storytelling). Applies to both Leo and Casey. I wish to discuss it. Sorry I can't go into it now, but hold that thought iris. Will be back, possibly after thanksgiving.

Joseph Campbell type stuff? He wrote Hero With A Thousand Faces," which I tried to read but couldn't get through. But whatever it be, bring it on!


I'd like to hear more opinions about what Casey did in this episode. Why should he have helped Hun like that?

[longing for leo]

I'd like to hear more opinions about what Casey did in this episode. Why should he have helped Hun like that?

Well, probably because he's not a killer. Anger isn't enough to make him do it...even when he's "out of control." This show tries to teach us that killing on a whim for revenge isn't enough. All the times that the turtles & Splinter tried to off Shredder for revenge, it didn't happen. Only when he was a real threat to not only the family, not only Earth, but apparently the whole universe, then that was justification enough to do it...& of course, even there he didn't die (at least not on-screen).

The writers are probably making a point in this ep that Casey has a really big heart & is much better than Hun. What would've happened if Casey had punched Hun off the truck to be run over? I don't think Casey would've done a victory dance.

Maybe part of it was to juxtapose Casey's chosen path with Leo's new path. Leo was berating them for not "finishing the job." I don't know about you, but I took that to mean "not killing Hun." He's learned that if you don't take opportunities *cough* Karai *cough* to get rid of the threat then your enemies will come back to, well, stab you.

My question: would Leo have done it? Honestly, when the moment came, Hun was begging for help, do you think Leo would've cold bloodedly murdered him/let him die? I hope not. I don't think so...but Leo's so unpredictable lately.

[iris]

Originally Posted by longing for leo

All the times that the turtles & Splinter tried to off Shredder for revenge, it didn't happen. Only when he was a real threat to not only the family, not only Earth, but apparently the whole universe, then that was justification enough to do it.

Hmm... it's possible that the show is taking a moral stance on a cosmic level. Also, revenge the sake of revenge tends to make a sucky end to an adventure story.

Maybe part of it was to juxtapose Casey's chosen path with Leo's new path....

My question: would Leo have done it? Honestly, when the moment came, Hun was begging for help, do you think Leo would've cold bloodedly murdered him/let him die?

Juxtaposition may have been exactly what they were going for. The first thing I thought after Casey helped Hun was, "Leo's right there... what if Hun had been at Leo's mercy?" Furthermore, what if he had the same motivation as Casey? To answer that, you've gotta evaluate what they've shown up to this point, which could bring up even more questions. (Did Leo really snap that random Bad Dude's neck in "I, Monster", or was it just a sound effect meant to make us ask?)

To me, the entire episode was engineered to make the audience specifically address uncomfortable questions about Leo's judgement and the noble character everyone seems to take for granted. If nothing else makes you question him, how about Leo's uncomfortably realistic explosion in the wake of defeat?

The cool part is that these questions parallel Leo's uneasy questioning of his own judgment and fundamentals. What was once black-and-white for Leo-- and for the audience who "knew" him-- has turned to muddled shades of grey.

This could be my imagination, but there's possilbly foreshadowing in this episode. Maybe at some point Leo will have to decide between mercy and ... um... not mercy. Maybe that will answer some questions for Leo as much as anything else.

So: Casey. I guess, after going off on the Leo tangent (sorry about that), what Casey did seems more straightforward. You're right, he does have a big heart, and kind of an innocent heart too. He seemed sure of what he was doing, and what he was taught... though I was hoping he wouldn't just let Hun get the upper hand like that. :p

[Sakirules]

Casey should have killed Hun. Forget about honor. If you kill an innocent citizen that's when you lose your honor. But Hun is far from innocent and should have been slain. I would have.

I like how the Purple Dragons have become more than just street punks but an international crime network.

[longing for leo]

Casey should have killed Hun. Forget about honor. If you kill an innocent citizen that's when you lose your honor. But Hun is far from innocent and should have been slain. I would have.

Hmm, not something I would have stated so lightly. While I admit, it would've been much easier for everyone if Casey had done nothing & let Hun fall, what is "right" & what is easy are rarely the same things. Even if Casey (or you or I, for that matter) had chosen to allow Hun to die, or outright killed him, then he would've have "won." In the long run everyone would've probably been better off/safer, but at what cost? If it was I, that would've haunted me...the knowledge that I was capable of cold-blooded murder...that I witheld my hand when I could've saved him...that I took a life...well, I don't think that I have the right to condemn someone hanging helpless & pleading for mercy & I don't think that Casey (or the writers, for that matter )thought that either. Please don't think that I'm making a slur on you! I don't know you & I'm not trying to say anything about your character. This is simply why I believe it would've been very harmful to Casey's character/pysche if he had killed Hun. I believe he would've regretted it for the rest of his life, to the point that he forgot to live (wouldn't be able to have a relationship w/ April, etc.). But this is all just mho.

Juxtaposition may have been exactly what they were going for...The cool part is that these questions parallel Leo's uneasy questioning of his own judgment and fundamentals. What was once black-and-white for Leo-- and for the audience who "knew" him-- has turned to muddled shades of grey.

This could be my imagination, but there's possilbly foreshadowing in this episode. Maybe at some point Leo will have to decide between mercy and ... um... not mercy. Maybe that will answer some questions for Leo as much as anything else.

It seems really significant to me that Leo's new part in the intro song has a yin yang in it. He's cault between the two, struggling for balance. I guess we all know he'll choose the "good," but there's alway a price. I hope it's not a life, whether Splinter, Karai, April, or Casey's (& no, I don't think one of the TMNT will be killed ). The writers are seriously toying w/ our emotions, making us second guess some of our fav characters. Honestly, we were given reason to quetion whether Leo broke someone's neck off screen!

(Did Leo really snap that random Bad Dude's neck in "I, Monster", or was it just a sound effect meant to make us ask?)

We'll never know, so it'll just sit there in the back of our heads, bothering us. Personally I don't think that he did, but if he was so upset that they didn't "finish the job," which we're probably supposed to assume meant killing Hun, then we would further assume that Leo wants all their enemies/threats to his family dead, so, err, this hurts my head.