Could someone enlighten me....

[Lone Wolf]

Originally Posted by Roseangelo

That's really not true. Kevin definitely still has interest in the TMNT. But at the time that he sold his share the franchise was doing nothing and if the franchise WERE to do anything, he and Peter would have to agree and approve whatever was to be done. That's not easy to do when you're not friends anymore (and you have differing points of view). It was really in the best interest of the franchise that one of them sell their share. With Kevin in LA and busy publishing Heavy Metal, it seems like a pretty common sense decision to me.

Oh I'm sure Kevin goes on things like Attack of the Show and talks about his interest in working on the TMNT property NOW, seeing as Laird has taken the initiative and had success in resuscitating the franchise. The bottom line is, Laird is the one that claims TMNT is the crowning creative achievement of his life, Laird is the one that took steps at bringing the TMNT back when "they were doing nothing" and Eastman was the one that was not interested and wanted to move on.

He also wrote and drew the ultra-violent and ultra-mediocre Bodycount and thought Venus the fifth female ninja turtle could be a good idea. Some people here aren't happy with some of Laird's decisions, and that is fine, but lets not whitewash Eastman's history with the TMNT okay?

One last point: IP owners go back and change the history of their franchises ALL THE TIME. Its called retconning. Superman's origin has been redone what, a half-dozen times? New editions of books are changed from previous editions all the time. Some people might not like it, but it is far from an unheard of occurrence in the world of storytelling, particularly in the medium of comic books.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

Well, just to be fair, DC retconed it's entire continuity, more than once. And you gotta think one of the reasonsn they do this is to keep them fresh seeing as how most of the characters are 60-70 years old.

But I see where you're coming from.

[Kendamu]

Originally Posted by Lone Wolf

He also wrote and drew the ultra-violent and ultra-mediocre Bodycount and thought Venus the fifth female ninja turtle could be a good idea. Some people here aren't happy with some of Laird's decisions, and that is fine, but lets not whitewash Eastman's history with the TMNT okay?

1) Bodycount was cool for what it was and it was only a four-issue miniseries that didn't affect the rest of the comics at all. Sorry it wasn't full of the depth that is Casey sitting around being worried about April while Gammeraph downs a few beers while watching TV.

2) Kevin would've never created Venus had Saban not reuqired a female Turtle for NT:NM to air. Though I do have to agree that Venus was a shi... err... crappy idea and I'm glad she got parodied in Vol. 3 and eventually retconned.

[Jester]

Originally Posted by Goongasnootch

Kevin would've never created Venus had Saban not reuqired a female Turtle for NT:NM to air. Though I do have to agree that Venus was a shi... err... crappy idea and I'm glad she got parodied in Vol. 3 and eventually retconned.

Parodied in Vol 3....what you talkin' 'bout Snootch!

[Roseangelo]

Originally Posted by Lone Wolf

Oh I'm sure Kevin goes on things like Attack of the Show and talks about his interest in working on the TMNT property NOW, seeing as Laird has taken the initiative and had success in resuscitating the franchise.

Are you referring to when he was on AOTS like two years ago? He doesn't do that for the purpose of talking TMNT; TMNT is going to come up in any interview he does because he's co-creator and most of the morons doing the interviewing are clueless about his lack of involvment now.

The bottom line is, Laird is the one that claims TMNT is the crowning creative achievement of his life, Laird is the one that took steps at bringing the TMNT back when "they were doing nothing" and Eastman was the one that was not interested and wanted to move on.

Dude, did you not read what I wrote? And Kevin bought Heavy Metal back in the 90s when TMNT was still going strong, not because they had fizzled away.

He also wrote and drew the ultra-violent and ultra-mediocre Bodycount

No, Simon Bisley drew Bodycount. That's the kind of story you're going to get when you've got Kevin and Biz working together; it's not supposed to be taken seriously.

and thought Venus the fifth female ninja turtle could be a good idea.

No, a female turtle was a requirement of the show getting on the air.

Some people here aren't happy with some of Laird's decisions, and that is fine, but lets not whitewash Eastman's history with the TMNT okay?

At least get your facts straight.

[Kendamu]

Originally Posted by Jester

Parodied in Vol 3....what you talkin' 'bout Snootch!

I don't remember which issue but there was a page or two where the Turtles are on.. I think... a spaceship or something and Mikey walked out with what looked to be a female mutant turtle that he said he'd been making out with for a few minutes. Right afterwards she was revealed to be this sludgy thing that can morph itself into other shapes and it totally grossed Mikey out. It was some funny stuff!

[Jester]

Originally Posted by Goongasnootch

I don't remember which issue but there was a page or two where the Turtles are on.. I think... a spaceship or something and Mikey walked out with what looked to be a female mutant turtle that he said he'd been making out with for a few minutes. Right afterwards she was revealed to be this sludgy thing that can morph itself into other shapes and it totally grossed Mikey out. It was some funny stuff!

Someone...find these pages...

[Lone Wolf]

Originally Posted by Roseangelo

Dude, did you not read what I wrote? And Kevin bought Heavy Metal back in the 90s when TMNT was still going strong, not because they had fizzled away.

Uhm, that furthers my point. He WASN'T INTERESTED IN TMNT, HE WANTED TO MOVE ON. You act like TMNT would magically continue and the involvement of this or that person is incidental. Without Laird, THERE WOULD BE NO NEW TMNT BECAUSE EASTMAN WASN'T INTERESTED.

No, Simon Bisley drew Bodycount. That's the kind of story you're going to get when you've got Kevin and Biz working together; it's not supposed to be taken seriously.

Great defense. Kind of like your defense of Eastman's walking away from TMNT. Excuses don't change the quality of his solo writing project that he DECIDED to put out there, just like how he DECIDED to agree to Sabans terms in putting TNM on the air. Speaking of which...

No, a female turtle was a requirement of the show getting on the air.
At least get your facts straight.

Yeah, notice I said COULD be a good idea. Laid never wanted to allow that abomination on the air, but check out interviews that deal with the production. Eastman thought it could be cool, Laird said no way. Facts are totally straight madam.

Perhaps your ability to ignore the basic points of my post has something to do with your apparent tendency to give Eastman every benefit of the doubt and Laird, the man that actually was interested in bringing back the TMNT and who has done so, none whatsoever.

[Roseangelo]

Ok, for whatever reason you seem to hate Kevin, so I'm not going to bother repeating what I've already said even though you obviously haven't paid attention.

I say what I say because I have spent time with Kevin and I can guarantee you that he has no lack of interest in the TMNT.

[Lone Wolf]

Originally Posted by Roseangelo

Ok, for whatever reason you seem to hate Kevin, so I'm not going to bother repeating what I've already said even though you obviously haven't paid attention.

I say what I say because I have spent time with Kevin and I can guarantee you that he has no lack of interest in the TMNT.

Uh huh. I think you say what you say because you not only like to "get your facts straight", but also like to make up your own in the form of conjecture.

Look, I hold absolutely no ill will towards Eastman. He created Casey Jones, one of my favorite characters, and put the "Teenage Ninja" in TMNT. From all accounts, he is an amiable guy and always eager to talk about TMNT with fans.

BUT you are putting way to much stock in psychological profiling and conjecture. Eastman saw the TMNT one way, Laird another. When they came to a fork in the road, Eastman handed the ball to Laird. Some people have criticisms, and now they have nothing but excuses for St. Eastman and nothing but denigration for Demon Laird.

I don't think you need to "repeat" anything. Your pseudo-argument that no argument is necessary because I "obviously hate" Eastman speaks volumes.
You can read souls; you are a psychological master that can see the motivations of all men's actions, thus explaining them away. The Shadow has nothing on you.

[VaughnMichael]

Originally Posted by Roseangelo

I love Eric Talbot's work and I also love his inks when combined with the pencils of certain artists, but I have to agree that Eric and Jim are not a good combination and that this team-up is probably partially responsible for the overwhelming dislike of the art in volume 4. There's a huge difference between the volume 4 work at the CaW & Vol. 2 work and I really like that older stuff. Although I also think that Jim has become lazy in his drawing. Not all of the volume 4 problems can be blamed on the inks, the inks just haven't helped things out.

heh I was just trying to be a bit nicer to Jim Eric is one of my fave tmnt artists aside from a.c. farely, and michael dooney.
Who inked his work in city at war though I wonder it sort of looks like michael dooney almost to me. I'm out of town on a lap top so sadly I don't have all my tmnt comics on me.

Originally Posted by Lone Wolf

lets not whitewash Eastman's history with the TMNT okay?

We don't need to that's what Peter's doing.

Originally Posted by Lone Wolf

Uhm, that furthers my point. He WASN'T INTERESTED IN TMNT, HE WANTED TO MOVE ON. You act like TMNT would magically continue and the involvement of this or that person is incidental. Without Laird, THERE WOULD BE NO NEW TMNT BECAUSE EASTMAN WASN'T INTERESTED.

ok dude seriously do you even know whats going on in this thread because we're talking about peter laird going back and changing past comic books that really dont need it besides perhaps some page touch ups not kevin eatsmans lack of intrest in the tmnt property.

Originally Posted by Lone Wolf

Great defense. Kind of like your defense of Eastman's walking away from TMNT. Excuses don't change the quality of his solo writing project that he DECIDED to put out there, just like how he DECIDED to agree to Sabans terms in putting TNM on the air. Speaking of which...

ok seriously I like them both peter and kevin but allot of people have the right to voice there opinions on what he is doing and it's ok to think it's wrong.
Also Peter has as much say in the next mutation as kevin did so don't blame one without blaming the other...same goes for the image, archie, old toon and allot of other things the tmnt have done.
Back then untill 2k3 rolled around they both had been in charge and they both had to give the go ahead.
So not just any one person is to blame for what was venus even if laird says he didnt want her as you say he's the man for bringing tmnt out he and eastman are also the same ones who sold them out to fox in the 80's don't forget that if you really want to point fingers.
Frankly I say it's fine for Kevin to move on and Laird to stick to the turtles Laird has done other comics in the past and they didnt have the succes at all that tmnt dide so I could see why he would stay.
Eatman he's happy and has been taking care of heavy metal comics for some time.

[Roseangelo]

Originally Posted by Putrescent

Who inked his work in city at war though I wonder it sort of looks like michael dooney almost to me. I'm out of town on a lap top so sadly I don't have all my tmnt comics on me.

It was a few different people, but none of them were Mirage regulars. Dunno whatever happened to them.

[VaughnMichael]

Originally Posted by Roseangelo

It was a few different people, but none of them were Mirage regulars. Dunno whatever happened to them.

odd really odd..I never really payed much attention to such things untill now at age 27. I was like 13 or something when all these comics came out lol

[Raven]

So now I'm reading that Peter wants to take out a part of history from the turtles which just happens to be one of my favorite issues from volume one?! Really theres no need for that, keep it the way it is. Hearing this just makes me even more mad about how he's been handling the turtles, as I've said with volume four I'm quite angry at how things are turning out.

I also happen to have the newest reprint of issue 1 with the new tones and stuff when I won in the art contest on the offical site and frankly I was quite mad at these changes. Sure he's cleaning up things but some pretty big artist things were tampered with, I know something like a shadow casted over some one dosent seem all that sigificant but to me that added something to the panel and helped play out the mini movie in my mind, but its almost like in this new reprint he's simplified it.

Which would be cool if thats how it looked from the start, but he's taking away and not in a good way.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

I'm proud to be a huge geek and all, but sometimes even I have to say that sometimes fans can't react too strongly over the simplest of things.

Granted, for the most part changes can suck....hard, (I'm looking at you Lucas), but this is no big deal.

[Sanjuro]

So much hate in a thread. I don't even know what half of it is about just jumping in here.

But from what I read I have come to these conclusions.

1. Peter Laird can do whatever he pleases with the comic series....he OWNS IT. Picking the story arcs that are in cannon are crucial to the ongoing survival of the TMNT. MANY and I mean MANY of the TMNT: Vol 1 issues are far out there and don't progress the proper story that should be left in cannon. If they are preserved best kept in a compilation dedicated to the artist or author.

2. I think he has done a fantastic job on ongoing Tales of TMNT and TMNT Vol. 4. Neither series is a huge money maker and like he stated in the backpages of an issue he makes his money back on them but no profit. The sales of TMNT films, shows, figures are irrelevant. If I were him I would pull the plug on the comic and make as much money as possible. But he loves the characters and will continue to stretch the series as long as he enjoys doing them.

3. Kevin Eastman is not to blame or a scapegoat for TMNT:TNM. He did what he could to revive a dead horse and in the process he kicked the shell out of it. While I hated the show I give him credit for the attempt. As of today Eastman still takes pride in creating the TMNT and is very fond of them still. While he has a beautiful wife and his own projects his lack of time / dedication to working on TMNT full time is the reason he sold his half of the property. It also makes things much easier for Laird to accomplish what needs to be done without politics.

[Lone Wolf]

Originally Posted by Sanjuro Tsubaki

So much hate in a thread. I don't even know what half of it is about just jumping in here.

But from what I read I have come to these conclusions.

1. Peter Laird can do whatever he pleases with the comic series....he OWNS IT. Picking the story arcs that are in cannon are crucial to the ongoing survival of the TMNT. MANY and I mean MANY of the TMNT: Vol 1 issues are far out there and don't progress the proper story that should be left in cannon. If they are preserved best kept in a compilation dedicated to the artist or author.

2. I think he has done a fantastic job on ongoing Tales of TMNT and TMNT Vol. 4. Neither series is a huge money maker and like he stated in the backpages of an issue he makes his money back on them but no profit. The sales of TMNT films, shows, figures are irrelevant. If I were him I would pull the plug on the comic and make as much money as possible. But he loves the characters and will continue to stretch the series as long as he enjoys doing them.

3. Kevin Eastman is not to blame or a scapegoat for TMNT:TNM. He did what he could to revive a dead horse and in the process he kicked the shell out of it. While I hated the show I give him credit for the attempt. As of today Eastman still takes pride in creating the TMNT and is very fond of them still. While he has a beautiful wife and his own projects his lack of time / dedication to working on TMNT full time is the reason he sold his half of the property. It also makes things much easier for Laird to accomplish what needs to be done without politics.

Good post Sanjuro, I agree with all your points. I just want to clarify that I never blamed Eastman for the actual suckage of TNM, just for greenlighting it. Lets not act like TNM was the only hope for the infinite future of TMNT and Eastman just had to capitulate and get them back on the air in any shape or form.

I really don't hold Eastman in any disregard, I just am annoyed (perhaps disgusted in some cases) by the deification of Eastman and his history, while Laird is being called an uncreative "businessman, nothing more" who isn't doing what he thinks is best for the TMNT, just foaming at the mouth, grasping for more control as he unfeelingly throws fans off the cliff of doom and into the lake of fire. Some peoples attitudes towards Laird's being the freaking fountainhead of the TMNT for almost a decade is absolutely ridiculous.

Consider this: You hate the TNM, probably the worst licensed incarnation of the TMNT to reach the public, but you give credit to Eastman for the attempt. How many people on this forum are not giving Laird the same type of courtesy or benefit of the doubt?

[Jester]

I think the whole sainting of Eastman and the demonizing of Pete comes from the fact that he does own all of TMNT, and thus all the "bad" now seems to fall on his head, while Kevin is free to work on Heavy Metal and not have a care in the world about the TMNT (not saying that he doesn't, but it's not his primary responsibility). Had Kevin stayed on, yes they'd have had to hash out all the disagreements for sure, but they'd also have to both take the heat for the "bad". Kevin looks good now, because he really has nothing to look bad about. I think they are both just normal, perhaps very talented, dudes who came together and created something I love.
I guess what I'm saying is just this: Had this been the other way around and Kevin was full owner of TMNT, do you think he'd be vilified because of the direction he took the franchise?

*mutters* You just can't please those darned fan-people...

[Raven]

I'm just going to say I could care less as for whos to blame for what sucked and what didnt, all I care is about the now and whats happening with TMNT. I like Laired, I like Eastment but there only human and we've seen it countless times were a creator of a series has taken a risk in trying to the series in a new direction and failed horribly.

I'm only mad because the current arc Pete puts way to much sci-fi into it, and thats not why I like the TMNT. I love them because of the influence of japanese culture and so on. So far we have yet to see any of that in volume four.

Lets face it guys, when Pete and Kev worked together we got a fantastic blend of sci-fi and ninja action but when apart we get way over the extreme of one of those.

To tell you the truth I've enjoyed Tigerfogs online comic much more then Vol. 2 and 4 (see I hate more then just 4!)

Once they get things back on track I'll pick up a comic again.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

Originally Posted by Raven

I'm just going to say I could care less as for whos to blame for what sucked and what didnt, all I care is about the now and whats happening with TMNT. I like Laired, I like Eastment but there only human and we've seen it countless times were a creator of a series has taken a risk in trying to the series in a new direction and failed horribly.

I'm only mad because the current arc Pete puts way to much sci-fi into it, and thats not why I like the TMNT. I love them because of the influence of japanese culture and so on. So far we have yet to see any of that in volume four.

Lets face it guys, when Pete and Kev worked together we got a fantastic blend of sci-fi and ninja action but when apart we get way over the extreme of one of those.

To tell you the truth I've enjoyed Tigerfogs online comic much more then Vol. 2 and 4 (see I hate more then just 4!)

Once they get things back on track I'll pick up a comic again.

Influence of Japanese culture? There are just a bunch of ninjas, there was hardly any influence in the first volume.

Besides, now that I think about ti, it's no surprise that Kevin and Peter split. I don't think it's because of hostility, it's becasue they're two guys with two different styles. Eastman is very into the dark and gritty action, Laird is all about the sci-fi/fantasy approach. I'm surprised they made it work as long as they did. But, now that Eastman is free to express himself with Heavy Metal, Laird is free to express himself in TMNT.