I HATE Fathers and Sons!

[Xav]

Originally Posted by oldmanwinters

I agree that this episode wreaked havoc on the continuity, even though the damage had already been done by the revelation that the Guardians knew Shredder was an Utrom all along, yet presumed him dead after his beheading in Return to New York Part 3.

They never said he was dead they said he was defeated.

[Koi]

I want to read this so called "turtles bible" now...

[oldmanwinters]

Originally Posted by Xav

They never said he was dead they said he was defeated.

That's because "dead" is one of the eight words you can never say on (children's) television.

Originally Posted by Orangey

I want to read this so called "turtles bible" now...

Hmm...

Spoiler:

In the beginning, Kevin & Peter created the turtles and their multiverse. Now the multiverse was without depth and the turtles generally lacked distinctive personalities (except for Raphael being that loner, cool-but-rude guy that he is). People bought the first comic so Kevin & Peter said "Let there be a second issue," and there was a second issue introducing an ally and a new villain (the original antagonist was just a one-shot chump who was easily disposed of). Kevin & Peter saw that the second issue also sold well, so they decided to keep on pumping out issues every few months gradually giving each turtle their own personality. Truth be told, that third issue was kinda pointless, but things really started taking off (literally) once the turtles found that alien transporter that sent them into space for three issues.

Then Kevin & Peter said, Let us feature filler stories until we can think of a new villain," but since none of the candidates really stuck they decided to resurrect the cheese-grater cosplayer and leave readers to wonder how he wasn't dead. The answer never really came until decades later outside of some vague hints in issues 19-21 that can be a little hard to read on account of how dark the ink is. But I digress; are not these things already discussed across the internet?

Mark Freedman saw that the TMNT franchise was good and it could possibly become a brand with mass appeal given the right presentation. The turtles got shopped to Playmates toys, who then decided to pony up and pay for a few episodes of an animated cartoon. Fred Wolf saw that the cartoon was good, so he decided to start pumping out shows by the dozen. Steve Barron saw that it was good enough to make at least one decent movie with the help of Kermit the Frog's friends.

Eventually, kids got tired of the cartoon because they were deceived by the false prophets of the Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers in the 90s and that last live-action movie had left a bad taste in many folks' mouths. Kevin decided that if you can't beat the Rangers then you might as well join them, so he let Saban take a crack at their own turtle costumes (which proved to be of only slightly less quality than those seen in the third movie). Unfortunately, the world wasn't yet ready to embrace a female mutant ninja turtle, so that show got canned after a year.

Kevin, being the aficionado for drawing bullets & boobs decided to sell all he owned and buy Heavy Metal magazine, leaving Peter to make the turtles in his own image. Through his prophet, Mark Goldfine, Peter created another cartoon that tried to ignore the original series in everyway save for the colored bandannas. Many fans of the old show never embraced this new interpretation of the franchise, continuing to ignore the comic book source material while repeatedly asking the question, "why are there so many Krangs?" The comics still continued although most of the issues printed went unsold and unread while Peter's editorials became a soap box for political diatribes and rebukes of critiques. Eventually, Peter abandoned the comics to focus on a new movie that very few people actually saw. Having given his entire life's focus to the TMNT for over twenty-five years, Peter finally rested on the twenty-sixth year, selling off the franchise lock, stock, and barrel to Nickelodeon, where it remains to this day.

[ABrown]

Originally Posted by Xav

They never said he was dead they said he was defeated.

Then how do you explain why the same guardian was surprised to supposedly see Shredder alive when the turtles set the trap for him?

[Xav]

Originally Posted by ABrown

Fathers And Sons was such a huge continuity error. The episode makes it pretty clear that Splinter knew that Shredder was an utrom. And if he did know, didn't he think that it was something that the turtles needed to know when they were fighting Shredder all those times in the first season? He didn't think that it might be useful to mention to them that: "hey, if you cut off Shredder's head, it not going to kill him."

It's another one of the many reasons that I don't think that it was the creators original intention to make the Shredder an utrom. I think that while the first season was in production, it somehow was decided that they would make the Shredder an utrom. In any event, Fathers And Sons is another one of those cases where it's better not to think about it. It's better to just sit back and enjoy the ride.

And you think Splinter would know the water tower wouldn't kill him. And the Shredder as an Utrom thing was planned from the start I remember Peter said it somewhere.

[oldmanwinters]

Conclusive evidence for the Saki = Utrom reveal being planned from the beginning:
http://peterlairdstmntblog.blogspot....m-designs.html

[Jester]

Originally Posted by oldmanwinters

Conclusive evidence for the Saki = Utrom reveal being planned from the beginning:
http://peterlairdstmntblog.blogspot....m-designs.html

I still don't buy it. Now, if Kevin Eastman had said it...I'd believe it....and probably buy it for $80!

[ABrown]

So after seeing this episode, did most people believe that Master Splinter knew all along that Shredder was an utrom? Do people just take this episode to be a continuity error? This episode really was something that I was always curious about what other turtles fans thought.

[Revan]

Originally Posted by ABrown

So after seeing this episode, did most people believe that Master Splinter knew all along that Shredder was an utrom? Do people just take this episode to be a continuity error? This episode really was something that I was always curious about what other turtles fans thought.

It's a mistake that works best if you simply don't think about it and just try to enjoy the episode... if possible

it seemed like more people took issue with the way the turtle tots were drawn more than anything