I guess there's no stopping it...

[Tokka-B]

It's not moral. War can never be a moral act, not even as a "last resort." In the best case, war is a necessary evil. What is the moral difference between a crusade and a jihad?

Bombing of civilian populations is a form of terrorism, even more abhorrent than low-tech terrorist street bombings of innocents. This has been so ever since the first instance of "strategic" bombing (coincidentally, in Iraq, in 1917 by the British), up to the devastating bombing of Afghanis in our efforts to destroy Al Qaeda, and our continuing bombing raids into Iraq over the past ten years.

Pre-emptive war is anti-American. The concept was made infamous by Adolf Hitler, who claimed his aggression was necessary, to prevent attacks on Germany.

War always has corrosive effects on Constitutional Rights. It brings out the worst in presidents, vice-presidents, and attorneys general who are tempted to take Nixonian shortcuts.

Those were a few more of my reasons not to go to war with Iraq, basically war is just plain stupid, a bunch of barbarians using might, no brains. Why can't we all just put our heads together and come up with a global solution? Nah, that would take too much thinking, LOL.

[That Matt Guy]

Originally Posted by Tokka

Heh, what do you know, some American troop just attacked his own division with a grenade and injured like 15 people....

Well it turns out the soldier who did that was a muslim, and he did it on purpose. He killed a Captain, so I'm sure he is will spend the rest of his life in jail.

[Tokka-B]

Well, he wasn't originally a muslim, he is a convert, and most converts would do that to show how awful a religion (that they hate) can be, when it isn't the religion, it was the dude who wanted to make it seem horrible. I bet that is why he converted.

Also, take a look at this article:

SAFWAN, Iraq (March 23) - Civilians in southern Iraq are beginning to wonder if the U.S. and British troops who have captured their towns are liberators or occupiers.

"I swear it was better when Saddam was here," said Jamal Kathim, as his angry friends nodded in agreement.

Iraqis in the predominantly Shi'ite south had high hopes for stability at the start of a four-day-old war that President Bush said would liberate them.

Instead many are struggling to find food, water and medicine when they leave their mud huts and wander along highways through coalition checkpoints.

Shi'ite emotions are caught between fears of President Saddam Hussein's troops returning and fury over what they say is the failure of coalition troops so far to deliver on the humanitarian front.

When Iraqis are not worrying about food supplies, they wonder why U.S. helicopters have swooped down on their villages and allegedly fired on civilian vehicles.

The dead and wounded are sometimes rushed to a British-controlled checkpoint near Safwan, a town of 16,000.

"All I can do is change the bandage," said a British soldier to a wounded Iraq civilian with shrapnel in his leg.

Hospital officials in Safwan said they have treated about 40 civilians who were injured or killed in air raids by coalition forces since the conflict started.

"We try to move the wounded to bigger hospitals and we find American forces pointing guns at us at checkpoints," said Fadil Abbas, the director of the Safwan hospital, pointing to a stretcher with a blood stain.

Other residents of Safwan, where the Iraqis and coalition forces signed a ceasefire after the 1991 Gulf War, said coalition forces are preventing them from retrieving the corpses of 200 Iraqi soldiers in a nearby town.

After hospital officials placed two civilians in a mosque before burial, teenagers gathered at a petrol station that had been looted, walking barefoot in gasoline and siphoning it for a few dollars.

"The Americans and British said it was going to be a liberation but this is an occupation," said Majid, 15.

In the countryside, women in black shawls scrubbed clothes in dirty water.

Other Iraqis sat outside their huts watching coalition troops crawl along the desert floor and tanks rumble across a highway, their treads ripping up the tarmac.

An electricity pylon that was destroyed by coalition bombing and burnt out Iraqi tanks reminded them of the war that had raised hopes among Shi'ites.

Many have bitter memories of their 1991 rebellion against Saddam, which was ruthlessly crushed after the Americans left.

Frustrations were palpable at a checkpoint where an Iraqi man was urgently trying to tell an American soldier something about a nearby power plant.

"He doesn't understand me. There are four Iraqis who work for the government who won't let us go in there to look for our relatives because it was shelled. The men have guns," said the man. "Why don't they listen?"

[Donatello02]

He's muslim. He's evil. He's a terrorist. Let's hang him. And then we can mutilate his satanic carcass.

The NEW mindset of America. Yay.

[Voltron]

Who the hell cares what Iraqis think? ********! Who are they to tell us what to do? We got guns, and we are saving their asses from genocide!

You want us to leave the towns after we liberate them? Yeah, and why not just have our troops shoot themselves in the back as well! I mean, no one would EVER think that once a town is liberated, all the radicals and loyal supporters of Hussein just disappear.

Another thing! France now wants a say in what happens during Iraq's reconstruction! Damn Cheese suckers! Why is it that Europe smells? France! France! FRAAAAAAAAANCE!

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/text/france.html[/url]

[That Matt Guy]

Originally Posted by Tokka

Well, he wasn't originally a muslim, he is a convert, and most converts would do that to show how awful a religion (that they hate) can be, when it isn't the religion, it was the dude who wanted to make it seem horrible. I bet that is why he converted.

Yeah it's just pathetic. But still thats no excuse to attack your own troops.

[Tokka-B]

Well Voltron, I can't really comment on what should or would happen as the war was a poor choice anyway. And I hope you were joking when you said you don't care what the Iraqi's think...

It just goes to show the type of people that favored a war.

[Leo656]

I suppose a better choice would be to casually mind our own business until we got sucker-punched by Iraq or some other country again.

Oh, wait, I forgot, what's going on in Iraq has nothing to do with us. And even if Saddam does has weapons of mass destruction, he'd never turn them on us. Nope, Iraq would never bother wasting their time attacking us. Why would another country attack us if we just stayed out of their affairs?

Oh, wait, sorry. Forgot about that whole Pearl Harbor thing.

And the 9/11 attack, which was completely unprovoked.

Is it asking too much that America, just once, throw the first punch? Is it? Do you honestly believe that we would NOT be going to war with Iraq within the next five years or so anyway? If so, you need to seriously wake up and realize that we've been on the brink of war with Iraq since Desert Storm ended. Nothing ever really got settled. Now, hopefully, it will be.

We're at war. And, like it or not, we're the GOOD GUYS. I don't care what some frigging tree hugging hippie celebrity tells me I should think about the war. I don't care how fashionable it is to criticize the President or his policies. Watch the news. More than 60% of America is FOR the war. That tells me something. It tells me that as a whole, America realizes that we're in the right. And a bunch of morons who can't live in the real world breaking into Air Force bases, protesting in the streets obstructing traffic, and making life miserable for everyone else, are NOT going to make a damn bit of diference.

And I'm not going to say that "I don't care what the Iraqis think". So you need to step back before you make blanket statements like that, Junior. What I WILL say, is that if these people liked it better under Saddam, they should have joined his damn army and fought to preserve the current status quo. They'd make a lot more difference than the pathetic attempts his soldiers are currently making.

[One Radical Dude]

Good statement, Leo.

I do think that this war may be longer than expected. A lot of things have happened, thus far, and I think it's far from over. Either way, I still support this war. I want to see Saddam's regime disintegrate.

From what I heard not too long ago, according to Iraqi TV, Saddam is supposedly going to make a 'historic speech.' Whether this shows that he really is functioning well or not, that remains to be seen. I wouldn't doubt if this 'speech' was recorded at an earlier date.

[Zenrick]

I am just angry 'cause access to San Francisco was cut off due to the irritating as crap 'peace' rally people. I want to toss grenades in their crowd 'cause they are my enemies just like Iraq.....if they dont like our countries decision, LEAVE! Dont freaking wreak havoc in our country and cause problems from the inside. I've lost a TON of respect for System of a Down for making that gay video about their 'peace' rally. I could care less if their stupid Armenian people were murdered so long ago and their parents had to flea to america. The killing wont stop, so we must take action and if they hate that go back to Armenia, dont cause problems in our America. ****. And whats with these stupid people from hollywood trying to start crap? F that and F them, they are Iraqis to me.....traitors......I just hope Jeanine Garoffolo and the Dixie Chick singer ugly woman are imprisoned for high treason that'd be great!
-J

[Voltron]

Saddam is just like Hitler. You think he should be left in power?

He attacks other countries without provocation.

He tortures and murders his own people.

His son was EXILED from Iraq in fear of death for pissing off his father.

He is a lunatic and a genocidal madman.

He is setting oil wells on fire, destroying the environment.

The only reason France, Germany, and Russia are opposed to this war is because Saddam gives them a good deal on oil. If that deal was taken away, see how fast France rushes in.

Now, why isn't this war justified?

[Donatello02]

Originally Posted by Voltron

Saddam is just like Hitler. You think he should be left in power?

He attacks other countries without provocation.

He tortures and murders his own people.

His son was EXILED from Iraq in fear of death for pissing off his father.

He is a lunatic and a genocidal madman.

He is setting oil wells on fire, destroying the environment.

The only reason France, Germany, and Russia are opposed to this war is because Saddam gives them a good deal on oil. If that deal was taken away, see how fast France rushes in.

Now, why isn't this war justified?

Our goverment has a history of unprovoked attacks, mostly on innocent civilians. The US goverment tried genocide with the Japanese during WWII. We are destroying the enviroment with our power plants and pollutants. France, Russia, and Germany are doing what every other country including America does today, and that's look out for their own interests. Now why is this war justified?

[Tokka-B]

Yea, I'd say Bush is more like Hitler.

He attacks a country that hasn't done anything to us, Iraq didn't do 9/11 a terrorist did, if Mcveigh when to Romania and killed thousands, would they then blame it on us, the common citizen?

You could say Bush tortures his own people without a good economy, so many people are becoming homeless and not cared for that we have to go worry about another country that can be dealt with by there own people...Bush lowers the taxes to feed the rich in hopes of them spending the money, who is he kidding? I'd take Roosevelt's New Deal anytime now...sheesh Bush has the death penalty in Texas, thus killing thousands of people, if that isn't torture, I don't know what is...

Don't tell me you didn't think he would set the oil wells on fire when we are attacking his country for no reason...that is like saying he won't use wmds sometime soon, it isn't a question about whetther he has them or not anymore, it is a question of how to deal with it. I can not stress this anymore, the end does not justify the means....just cause you have a knife in your house, doesn't mean I should attack you because I think you will use it on me...

Saddam is evil. I've never said he isn't. He does horrible things. But by lowering ourselves to his level we become just like him. We're now on his level...not above it like we could be. "When slaying monsters one must be careful not to become one in the process." Peaceful ends through peaceful means...that's the only way the human race will avoid its own destruction. We didn't try all that hard to end things peacefully...war should only come as a last ditch effort when it is FORCED upon a nation. Defending our own nation from our own soil would be an example. Going to another nation, invading it, conquering it, and occupying shows that we were the aggressors and chose to bring war. That is morally bankrupt and wrong.

Friendly fire has been too common in this war, and we have lost many lives so far, too many already and we haven't reached baghdad yet. Neither have we captured any of Saddam's regime, but so quickly do we forget what the main task is, I doubt our regime will even give him a try at court if we even catch him, not wanting to here a thought out speech and such, of course we are known to take away things when we don't like them, such as innocent until proven guilty...

During a war, it should be normal that at least 90% of the population of your OWN country is with you, when it gets down to 70, then you know you aren't listening to the american people and others around the world and it is just pathetic and pure ignorance.

I really wouldn't be surprised if Bush gets impeached, being a war criminal it is almost inevitable.

BTW, sorry Don for not being here earlier, a sudden wave of pro-war comments was too quick for me, lol..

[Leo656]

>>>Bush has the death penalty in Texas, thus killing thousands of people, if that isn't torture, I don't know what is... <<<

Well I call it worthless, blood sucking wastes of life getting what they deserve. I don't know what *you'd* call it. To me, if you're walking down the street and decide that you're going to rape and murder the next woman that passes, and you do, that means that you forfeit your right to live. Prisons are overcrowded as it is, and I sure as hell don't want these people walking the streets again.

In fact, that's one of my main reasons for supporting Bush, is the fact he had more prisoners put to death than any Texas governor in the state's history. He had to be doing something right.

But then again I support capital punishment 100% and you obviously don't, so we're gonna have to agree to disagree on that one.

[One Radical Dude]

Actually, Tokka, I read from a few places that the Oklahoma City bombing has Saddam Hussein's name on it. You see, McVeigh and Terry Nichols may have been Iraqi agents, and trained by the Iraqi government. It makes sense to me.

Again, countries such as Russia, China, etc. have made Saddam Hussein powerful by selling him weapons of mass destruction.

If President Bush is to blame for the bad economy, why did the plunge begin during the last year or so of the Clinton Administration? Sorry, but that isn't Dubya's fault.

It sounds like you're supporting Saddam, even though you say that 'he's evil.' People are attacking Bush in the United States because of who's in office right now. I bet if Al Gore was in office today and makes the decision to do exactly what GWB has done in the Iraq situation, you would not be criticizing him. I didn't criticize Clinton when he bombed Kosovo and other nations.

I support the Presdient right now, and he is doing the best that he can. I don't agree with him on everything. Clinton is the criminal, and he got away with everything.

Most of the anti-war/peace demonstrations aren't even peaceful. It ends up being violent. Lots of people are blocking the streets, some throw rocks, vandalism takes place....they really seem peaceful, don't they?

Tokka, you mentioned "friendly fire". Dude, people are going to be killed in this war....even if it is from "friendly fire!!" There is no such thing as a war without casualties. As a soldier, etc. in a war, you sacrifice your life to defend people's right, to liberate people, etc. etc. Pretending that there's nobody going to harm the United States isn't going to create peace. Remember 9-11-01? When dictators like Saddam are in power, there is no way to peace. The Iraqi people have no freedom, no peace, etc.

GWB gave Saddam numerous opportunities to change his ways, but Saddam has refused. Bush could have easily tried to stop him sooner, but people wanted to give Saddam chances to change. If you're with Saddam, you're supporting a Hitler or a Stalin.

[Voltron]

Bush is an idiot. And there are more than two sides to every argument.

YES we should liberate Iraq but it may be impossible

NO Bush is not right for America

Now Bush may be a self agrandizing moron, and this war MAY NOT be justifiable in some aspects, especially considering that

We haven't done ANYTHING to North Korea after it's threats.

We haven't stopped ALL the terrorists yet

We look like monster assholes

Our Economy is going to hell

We are governed by pompous assholes that care nothing for anyone but themselves, they are totally above the law (even though they really aren't) they disregard everything that America stands for.


BUT


Saddam does the same thing, EXACTLY the same thing....

The US rarely attacks unprovoked,

Except during the cold war when we stuck our noses into Korea, but in that case we had to save those people from genocide

and Vietnam, when France told us to fight for them

And the Spanish/American War, when we lied about the Maine and just went ape **** down in Cuba...

The truth is, Saddam had warning, and was given ultimatums to avoid war. He didn't tale them..

Either way we are getting called into Korea and I'm most likely going to die fighting someone I don't even want to fight.....

War is a rich man's chess game...

[Donatello02]

War is only necessary when it's made so. Their is no valid reason for this war. Period.

[Tokka-B]

Exactly Don, I am tired of this debate anyway, I think we all know each other's view on things by now anyway. We shouldn't get into capital punishment, as that is a different issue as well as economic revivals. All I can hope for is that the arrogant empire will cease to be dominant and be more of a member of the global community as equals. I also hope we don't have a terrorist attack here again, but that may seem inevitable now..

[Voltron]

What's so civil about war, anyway?

[Tokka-B]