What version did worse?

[Yabuturtle]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

That's something completely different. You might as well say that John Oliver or Conan O'Brien have to have plot and/or character development.

It's a show and it's animated. Conan O'Brian is a talk show, not a skit show, although they do have skits on it.

So really, Robot Chicken isn't that different. But I can give other examples. Aqua Teen Hunger Force isn't well known for having epic plots. Just scenarios, random stuff and not very linear as there are characters that die and come back to life through unexplained reasons.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Yabuturtle

It's a show and it's animated. Conan O'Brian is a talk show, not a skit show, although they do have skits on it.

So really, Robot Chicken isn't that different. But I can give other examples. Aqua Teen Hunger Force isn't well known for having epic plots.

Never heard of Aqua Teen Hunger Force.

Robot Chicken is a skit show and I'm baffled why you're bringing it up in this discussion. Straw man much? Tell me, what recurring characters are there? In the majority of all episodes?

[plastroncafe]

You're not missing much on not having seen Aqua Teen.

But here I'll take this strawman down and give it some new stuffing.

Teen Titans Go.
A non-linear show with a regular cast of characters. You can enjoy it if you've never seen the previous version, or if you're pretty unfamiliar with the characters overall, but it's funnier if you know them.

I'd consider it a good show. Each episode is mostly self contained, which is good because the characters are maimed and/or die a whole lot.
It's dark and campy and ridiculous.

Would I consider it good? Well...I like it a lot.

[Yabuturtle]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

Never heard of Aqua Teen Hunger Force.

Robot Chicken is a skit show and I'm baffled why you're bringing it up in this discussion. Straw man much? Tell me, what recurring characters are there? In the majority of all episodes?

You said earlier that good shows have linear stories and plot development and I debated that not all shows have to have such qualities to be listed as good shows. And when I do list shows that are good or somewhat decent, you're baffled? I don't get it... Please I've seen way too many people say "something something much?" That is something that has never made sense to me.

I'm just listing well known shows whether you think it's good or not. I've seen shows with needlessly complicated plots that just end up slowing things down. So, no, not every good show has to have a good linear plot line and/or character development. As long as it's entertaining, that's what makes it a good show. Go watch ATHF to know what I mean. It's better than trying to explain it.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

You're not missing much on not having seen Aqua Teen.

But here I'll take this strawman down and give it some new stuffing.

Teen Titans Go.
A non-linear show with a regular cast of characters. You can enjoy it if you've never seen the previous version, or if you're pretty unfamiliar with the characters overall, but it's funnier if you know them.

I'd consider it a good show. Each episode is mostly self contained, which is good because the characters are maimed and/or die a whole lot.
It's dark and campy and ridiculous.

Would I consider it good? Well...I like it a lot.

Honestly, it sounds like the DC Comics version of the OT TMNT.

Originally Posted by Yabuturtle

You said earlier that good shows have linear stories and plot development and I debated that not all shows have to have such qualities to be listed as good shows. And when I do list shows that are good or somewhat decent, you're baffled? I don't get it... Please I've seen way too many people say "something something much?" That is something that has never made sense to me.

I'm just listing well known shows whether you think it's good or not. I've seen shows with needlessly complicated plots that just end up slowing things down. So, no, not every good show has to have a good linear plot line and/or character development. As long as it's entertaining, that's what makes it a good show. Go watch ATHF to know what I mean. It's better than trying to explain it.

I apologize for not being clear. When we're discussing TMNT and what makes a good show, I assume discussing other shows means discussing other shows similar to TMNT. In that it contains regular recurring characters aka a main cast and some form of plot. Whether story arcs or nothing but standalone episodes.

Again, based on that criteria, Robot Chicken doesn't enter the conversation. Might as well bring up Dorkly's channel on Youtube. But if you want to expand it to "any show in any genre" then obviously more criteria immediately enter the game and the scope mushrooms past this thread. Also, I'll lose interest.

[Wesley]

Originally Posted by Bry

The beautiful, beautiful irony is that a lot of Fred Wolf fans are taking the show and its characters so seriously when its creators never did.

For the vast majority of its run, aside from the earliest and latest couple seasons (which were incidentally also the show's shortest) it wasn't intended to have much in the way of story arcs, continuity or even internal consistency. Characters would disappear with no explanation and certain plot points and status quos would change with no rhyme or reason. Designs/art styles would look noticeably different from one episode to the next. The layout of the lair would completely morph when the script called for it, and characters' behaviours would vary from episode to episode. Everything was malleable around the episode's plot and jokes, and the show even acknowledged this from time to time.

And I don't even mean any of this as a criticism! I genuinely like the show. I've got the Turtle Van boxed set on a shelf in my studio. But you can't deny that, for the majority of its run, it was very intentionally treated as a joke. That was the point of it. At its best, it had a clever, tongue-in-cheek sense of humour about itself, and it expected that the audience was in on the joke.

Both series were just doing very different things, and each fan's preference will depend on their own personal tastes. There were a lot of truly bad episodes in the '87 cartoon, especially when the seasons became bloated and the writing/animation got cheaper and lazier, but the 2003 series had some stinkers itself. I do think the 2003 series holds up a lot better overall because it was telling an actual story and treated its characters more like actual characters than two-dimensional caricatures, but... again, that comes down to my personal tastes, and those have no bearing on anyone else's preferences.

But honestly, having rewatched a bunch of the show pretty recently: you could take the '87 Turtles from Turtles Forever and drop them into a random mid-series episode and, I promise you, they'd fit right in.

(Aside from the scene where they ran into 2003 Raph's arms crying like babies - I agree that bit was weirdly out-of-place and mean-spirited. The rest, though? Pretty damn accurate.)

I agree. I rewatched some of the 1987 series recently and it wasn't as good as I remembered it as a kid. I think it was on air for too long and could've been condensed into five seasons. Half of the episodes are still fun to watch, in my opinion, but I find the turtles' catchphrases and pizza jokes irrating as an adult. I prefer the 2003 cartoon.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Wesley

I agree. I rewatched some of the 1987 series recently and it wasn't as good as I remembered it as a kid. I think it was on air for too long and could've been condensed into five seasons. Half of the episodes are still fun to watch, in my opinion, but I find the turtles' catchphrases and pizza jokes irrating as an adult.

It's rare that things we loved as a kid don't age poorly. At least in my experience.

But hey... thank you Fred Wolf TMNT for starting Turtlemania and bringing most of us into the fold.

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

Honestly, it sounds like the DC Comics version of the OT TMNT.

....

Thaaaaat is a way better, and far more succinct way of describing it.
!

[Wesley]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

It's rare that things we loved as a kid don't age poorly. At least in my experience.

But hey... thank you Fred Wolf TMNT for starting Turtlemania and bringing most of us into the fold.

I agree. I still like some of the OT's episodes, though. I like the Shredder/Krang dialogue and Raphael's one-liners. It's still a fun show to watch in small doses. It's mostly a comedy with some action in it. It's one of those guilty pleasure type shows like 2 Broke Girls and Charmed.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

....

Thaaaaat is a way better, and far more succinct way of describing it.
!

Is there pizza involved?

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by Yabuturtle

He is responsible, but I'd say most of the blame goes to the people that actually wrote it and directed it, not the person who produced it. Unlike the other movies Bay actually directed like the Transformers movies.

You are incorrect, as every single person working on TMNT had to do whatever Bay told them to. Go click around, I don't have the time to bring up year-old articles and interviews that were posted here which "exposed" that it was about 95% Bay's movie. Everything that made it into the final film was HIS say-so. It's a fact. HE is the one responsible for what we see on screen at this point. The writers and director's are just puppets.

(Sigh) FOR THE THOUSANDTH TIME...

Producers FINANCE movies. That means THEY make sure the movie has the money it needs to even get made. That means they are above the writer, director, and EVERYONE else. ESPECIALLY when the producer's name is "Michael Bay" and the director's name is "Who the f*** cares I never heard of him". Some no-name "writer" or "Director is going to tell Michael f***ing Bay what's going to be in the movie that HE'S paying for?! No. no, no, NO. The person handing over the money - and especially when they're a "celebrity" themselves like Bay - calls ALL the important shots.

Since the movie came out, MANY people working on the movie and even Bay HIMSELF have come forward and admitted that he made every single decision and they all did what he said. because he's The Boss.

I can't take it. Two years later we're still arguing about the fact that it WAS Bay's f***ing movie and no one else's.

Read and comprehend, people. Don't project, don't argue, just take the facts as they're given. As I have said many, MANY times, I don't think people should even be allowed to SPECULATE on how these things go down until they've studied how movies are made, or at least read a decent book on the subject. It's just... painful, having to go back and rehash stuff that was buried FOREVER ago, just because some people still don't know what a "Producer" does, especially the producer who owns the studio.

Siiiiiiiiiiiigh.

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

You're not missing much on not having seen Aqua Teen.

Wow, talk about statements that are the Opposite of Truth. Best thing ever.

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Wow, talk about statements that are the Opposite of Truth. Best thing ever.

Not when you used to live with a guy who was unironcally Master Shake it's not. That show damn near gives me flashbacks.

Plus? The movie was a HUGE let down, aside from the "linoleum knife" intro which was inspired.

[Leo656]

Well, I'm not trying to get all personal, I just happen to love random WTF humor and that show delivers in spades.

Meanwhile, "you don't own space so stop actin' like ya do."

[Jephael]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I just happen to love random WTF humor and that show delivers in spades.

Gotta love Meatwad!!!

[Commenter 42]

Soooooooo....

What's new?

Looks like I missed the party.

[Yabuturtle]

Originally Posted by Leo656

You are incorrect, as every single person working on TMNT had to do whatever Bay told them to. Go click around, I don't have the time to bring up year-old articles and interviews that were posted here which "exposed" that it was about 95% Bay's movie. Everything that made it into the final film was HIS say-so. It's a fact. HE is the one responsible for what we see on screen at this point. The writers and director's are just puppets.

(Sigh) FOR THE THOUSANDTH TIME...

Producers FINANCE movies. That means THEY make sure the movie has the money it needs to even get made. That means they are above the writer, director, and EVERYONE else. ESPECIALLY when the producer's name is "Michael Bay" and the director's name is "Who the f*** cares I never heard of him". Some no-name "writer" or "Director is going to tell Michael f***ing Bay what's going to be in the movie that HE'S paying for?! No. no, no, NO. The person handing over the money - and especially when they're a "celebrity" themselves like Bay - calls ALL the important shots.

Since the movie came out, MANY people working on the movie and even Bay HIMSELF have come forward and admitted that he made every single decision and they all did what he said. because he's The Boss.

I can't take it. Two years later we're still arguing about the fact that it WAS Bay's f***ing movie and no one else's.

Read and comprehend, people. Don't project, don't argue, just take the facts as they're given. As I have said many, MANY times, I don't think people should even be allowed to SPECULATE on how these things go down until they've studied how movies are made, or at least read a decent book on the subject. It's just... painful, having to go back and rehash stuff that was buried FOREVER ago, just because some people still don't know what a "Producer" does, especially the producer who owns the studio.

Siiiiiiiiiiiigh.



Wow, talk about statements that are the Opposite of Truth. Best thing ever.

I know what a producer does...You don't have to explain as if I never heard of it.... I'm not saying he doesn't deserve all of the blame, I know he's a part of it, but that's the thing, he's a PART of it, not just all of it. He did finance it and had the final say in it, it doesn't mean he wrote the atrocious script or handled the poor editing, it just means that he approved it. Doesn't excuse it, but it's quite asinine when people act as if he was totally responsible which he wasn't. He was a big part of it, but a part nonetheless.

I'm saying don't put all the blame on him and act as if the writers and directors never existed. In the meantime, don't let this stuff get under your skin. It's not worth getting angry over. Seriously...

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Yabuturtle

I know what a producer does...You don't have to explain as if I never heard of it.... I'm not saying he doesn't deserve all of the blame, I know he's a part of it, but that's the thing, he's a PART of it, not just all of it. He did finance it and had the final say in it, it doesn't mean he wrote the atrocious script or handled the poor editing, it just means that he approved it. Doesn't excuse it, but it's quite asinine when people act as if he was totally responsible which he wasn't. He was a big part of it, but a part nonetheless.

I'm saying don't put all the blame on him and act as if the writers and directors never existed. In the meantime, don't let this stuff get under your skin. It's not worth getting angry over. Seriously...

When an employee brings a bad plan or lousy design to a manager, and the manager approves it, the employee might be in trouble but it's the manager whose ass gets nailed to the wall. That's why they get paid more and why they're supposed to manage (or produce) the people under them.

AKA "The buck stops here."

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

When an employee brings a bad plan or lousy design to a manager, and the manager approves it, the employee might be in trouble but it's the manager whose ass gets nailed to the wall. That's why they get paid more and why they're supposed to manage (or produce) the people under them.

AKA "The buck stops here."

Meh, I know it's Bay we all want to blame, but like i said, He had very little to do with it on the whole.

It was more a case of Liebesman making a big mess, (because they begged him to be the director), Bay watching the film and hating it, and Frankensteining it all to hell.

That's when they focus grouped the thing, and realized they had to drop white Shredder. Then re-shoots.

Granted Bay didn't understand Turtles then, and still doesn't now. He just knows it was a major headache, but it made more money than anyone thought it would. He was heavily involved with TF4 at the time. All of his focus was on TF4. Turtles wasn't expected to perform well, just make a small profit. Inspite of all the ****-ups, it over performed.

When you watch it again, you can see the scotch tape where they tried to salvage what was shot.

Bay also didn't make The turtles bigger. Look at the mocap suits - the eyeline was a foot off the actors head from the beginning. That decision was made by Liebesman and the other producers. Bay was prepping TF4.

And honestly, Bay would have never gone after TMNT in the first place if it wasn't for Brad Fuller. Fuller is the real evil **** here. Fuller is the big problem.

HE is the real devil, believe it or not.

[BubblyShell22]

Interesting thread here. Which version did worse? Well, if you want to go the cartoon route, I'd say Next Mutation and Fast Forward and Back to the Sewers from the 2K3 show as I pretty much pretend those seasons didn't exist and that it ended with the Lost Season. If we're talking movies, definitely the 2014 movie because it was just a f*cked up mess.

And for those who are saying that Turtles Forever was a slap in the face, that's not true at all. Yeah, the FW Turtles were goofier, but it was a parody, so that's what it was about. I only hated when they were crying, and now that I remember that they DID cry in the FW toon (in "Splinter No More" Mikey starts crying as does Splinter at the thought of being human and leaving his sons), it doesn't really bother me that much.

[LeotheLateBloomer]

Originally Posted by BubblyShell22

And for those who are saying that Turtles Forever was a slap in the face, that's not true at all. Yeah, the FW Turtles were goofier, but it was a parody, so that's what it was about. I only hated when they were crying, and now that I remember that they DID cry in the FW toon (in "Splinter No More" Mikey starts crying as does Splinter at the thought of being human and leaving his sons), it doesn't really bother me that much.

Thank you! Someone understands!