Pattinson/Reeves Batman Movie (Formerly Affleck Stand-Alone Film)

[AquaParade]

I don't think it's ego so much as creative people making creative decisions. Semantics maybe. The fact is most great artists don't want to repeat themselves, much less repeat someone else.
You have to consider that it you want to hire someone to adapt a cartoon for you, then you probably ain't getting Matt Reeves or anyone of his caliber.

I think just adapting B:TAS would be dull for me, dull for the creative team, and not capture what is special about the cartoon itself, which is the character design, the voice acting, the animation itself, the story boarding, etc..

If B:TAS had followed that principle, it wouldn't have existed in the first place. That show represented Batman but it was not a page-for-page translation of the comics. It was influenced by the Fleischer Superman cartoon - something that exists within it's own medium - as well as the Burton films, as much if not more than from the comics.

Hell, just bring back the animation itself, so we can appreciate what we love about it in the first place. Imagine that show with the level of animation displayed in the intro and keep the tissues handy.

It just seems like wanting things to always stay the same or go backwards would be the type of thinking that goes against all the amazing Batman evolutions we've seen through the decades. The character's tapestry is the most diverse of any character I can think of, and many of them beloved. Evolution is in the spirit of the character at this point.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by IMJ

I just think we've had too many variations and "revinventions" of aspects of Batman as a character on film, without ever having a comic book accurate character done.

Affleck was as close as we've gotten

Boom.

The gun thing also falls apart the second that you remember that Batman canonically always has at least several spare outfits, and I highly doubt that they ALL have pieces of the stupid gun inside them. As Andrew said, it tends to get beat up a lot.

It's just a really stupid and impractical idea thought up by someone who was seriously overthinking things and trying way too hard to be "poetic" or something. Just like the guy who wrote it the recent comics story where it was all like "He's secretly trying/hoping to get killed every night because he 'died' when he was 10 and just suffering ever since" or whatever it was. Jesus, relax. These things aren't as poignant as they probably sounded when you took that last bong rip, writer-person.

On the other hand, I've never understood why having an emblem on his chest that screams "Shoot Here, Not The Face" was somehow bad? This is literally not a criticism I've ever heard. Makes sense to me why it's there. If anything, having the yellow oval is the best as far as being "practical" because it makes the "target" stand out more (even though the plain black bat "looks cooler" and that's probably why it's been the most persistent version).

I'unno. I just know the thing on this dude's chest doesn't even look like a bat; kinda like a boomerang. I kinda suspect that's what it is. That's one theory I've seen floating around.

[Andrew NDB]

Yeah, it used to be the yellow oval was the only part of the suit that was bulletproof. Though it always begged the question to me, even as a kid... why not just make the whole costume in that material?

[AquaParade]

It's a silly excuse to have a logo. Just wear kevlar, all over your chest, at least, like Andrew said.

I still don't think the gun thing is true, but if so it indicates that this is clearly a first draft of the costume, because he wouldn't transfer that thing around. And yeah, I'm the one who called it "poetic". That was clearly me, so uh, elephant in the room, lol. Idk, yeah I'm sure some will see it in the same way as "damaged" on Jared Leto, but what can I say? I see a sort of beauty to it if it serves the character and they play up the idea that this is a pretty messed up, young version of Bruce. If it doesn't serve the story or character, than it's just grim for grim sake.

You never want to be the fool lambasting a movie through glimpses and previews though. It's actually a delicate and blurry line between forming an opinion based on what's in front of you and veering into full-blown arrogant territory by thinking you have the whole thing pinned down without having seen the product for what it fully is. Which is why I always temper my thoughts on pre-release previews like these. Sometimes you just need to see a finished product to understand it or completely tear it to shreds.

The whole "too many reinventions" is hogwash to me. People don't realize what that means. "Buh bye, Dark Knight Returns, B:TAS, Batman 89, Dark Knight trilogy." All radical reinventions of the character. So glad the creatives are in charge and the fans are fans in cases such as this.

[Leo656]

I actually didn't do that on purpose so if you want me to change it to a synonym I have no problem doing so.

[AquaParade]

No, leave it. I'm telling.

Kraaaaaaangggggg!

One year from now, you are toast.

[IMJ]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

The whole "too many reinventions" is hogwash to me. People don't realize what that means.

Oh I know full well what that means, and there lies my point. I stand by it completely, and I'd guess that you might be taking the point completely literally. For example, I'm not saying that we need the same Batman that we had when Nolan was doing it. What I am saying is that most of these guys have taken a facet or two of the character and that was either their filming thesis or their point of exaggeration for translation to film.

Instead of picking a single archetype, and then reinventing that archetype for the next film (hence, "too many reinventions"), I don't think there's anything wrong with doing a comic book accurate Batman. Try taking a look at Sandy Collora's Batman Dead End or World's Finest films. That's literally comic book Batman off the page on the screen in more ways than simply focusing on "a detective film" or "Batman in the real world". And therefore the root of Batman TAS comment - that animated series was clearly the closest thing to a comic-accurate Batman that we've gotten on film, maybe at the exclusive of a few of the DC Animated D2D movies.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

I still don't think the gun thing is true, but if so it indicates that this is clearly a first draft of the costume

We're not going to get a first draft of the costume because this is an established Batman with established rogues. They've said over and over it's not a year one.

Could it be from a flashback to his first making the first suit? Maybe, but I doubt they'd lead their publicity campaign with that.

[AquaParade]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

We're not going to get a first draft of the costume because this is an established Batman with established rogues. They've said over and over it's not a year one.

Could it be from a flashback to his first making the first suit? Maybe, but I doubt they'd lead their publicity campaign with that.

Well it is year 2, according to them. Really not a huge difference. So that could still be an early draft of whatever version of Batman this is. Or maybe this Batman only has one suit. Being that it's armor, it could make sense.

Originally Posted by IMJ

Oh I know full well what that means, and there lies my point. I stand by it completely, and I'd guess that you might be taking the point completely literally. For example, I'm not saying that we need the same Batman that we had when Nolan was doing it. What I am saying is that most of these guys have taken a facet or two of the character and that was either their filming thesis or their point of exaggeration for translation to film.

Instead of picking a single archetype, and then reinventing that archetype for the next film (hence, "too many reinventions"), I don't think there's anything wrong with doing a comic book accurate Batman. Try taking a look at Sandy Collora's Batman Dead End or World's Finest films. That's literally comic book Batman off the page on the screen in more ways than simply focusing on "a detective film" or "Batman in the real world". And therefore the root of Batman TAS comment - that animated series was clearly the closest thing to a comic-accurate Batman that we've gotten on film, maybe at the exclusive of a few of the DC Animated D2D movies.

You're saying that Batman the animated series is the closest adaption of the comics we have gotten?

It's biggest influences are the Batman 89 film and the Flesicher Superman cartoon. You even have the same composer as Burton's Batman, Danny Elfman, which is inseparable from the series. The show itself is inspired by reinventions.
It is quite faithful in how it adapts some of the beloved comic storylines but it also swerves and reinvents the wheel hard. Just look at Mr Freeze and Harley Quinn.
Let alone, comparing a live action adaptation to an animated one isn't exactly fair.

And I have to say, that's a different discussion than adapting Batman The Animated series to live action. That's what I was quoting you on and if I took that too literally, I'm not sure I can be blamed. I know you aren't saying we need the Nolan version again, but you are saying we need the BTAS version again. So that reads pretty straightforward to me. Sorry either way because the intention isn't to twist your words.

Batman: Dead End is cool. With the right director, you could make a feature film in that style, sure. I don't really see it as any more valid or appealing than anything else we've gotten.
If you like the way that costume looks more power to you, buy I really do welcome all the reinventions we've had of Batman over the years, even as a die-hard lover of the comics. I again cite DKR, Dark knight Trilogy, Batman 89. And I think both our opinions are, obviously, okay.

BTW: watching Batman Forever tonight. Haven't seen it since I was a teen, and I sort of lumped it in with Batman & Robin, but have been hearing some retrospective love for it so I'm popping it in.

Edit: ****, two minutes in and they spoil a visually beautiful Batman intro with a fast food joke. Guess I better buckle in.

Edit 2: I'm really enjoying the visuals though. I might actually like this on mute or with a heavily edited cut.

[MikeandRaph87]

BTW: watching Batman Forever tonight. Haven't seen it since I was a teen, and I sort of lumped it in with Batman & Robin, but have been hearing some retrospective love for it so I'm popping it in.

Edit: ****, two minutes in and they spoil a visually beautiful Batman intro with a fast food joke. Guess I better buckle in.

Edit 2: I'm really enjoying the visuals though. I might actually like this on mute or with a heavily edited cut.

It's the neon ascetic that is my biggest issue with the film. That and I hate Riddler's final battle suit. The biggest "what if" is it teases the examination of Bruce's duality but does not really get beyond the surface. He states, " I killed them" referring to his parents. What does he mean? Yes, Two Face could have been done better, less manically, but it's the scene where Two Face keeps flipping his country to get the result he wants. That is not Two Face! It could have dealt with the psychological aspect more than tease it so it could age better.

I love Dick Grayson and The Riddler so I automatically like this one. These two characters bring fun and layers of character to the mix.

The beginning was recut showing Two Face's deadly escape and was a good start at what could have been.

[The Deadman]

IGN came out with a ranking of all the batsuits on film
https://www.ign.com/articles/batman-...n-affleck-bale

[AquaParade]

Originally Posted by The Deadman

IGN came out with a ranking of all the batsuits on film
https://www.ign.com/articles/batman-...n-affleck-bale

Thanks for sharing but they made an incredibly lazy list. I really don’t care how you rank them but the brief, uninspired takes on each costume are hardly worth the amount of clicks they’ll pull in just by being IGN and having Batman in the article.

Sorry, I just think that website has some really poor content. The comic section has an opinion piece by who I think is an editor-in-chief comparing Hickman’s Secret Wars to DC’s Watchmen as a book of potentially equal evergreen status and brand representation. It was just completely caught up in the hype of the moment and made me sort of roll my eyes at them.

[Coola Yagami]

I guess the biggest problem with Batman is Batman is very difficult to pull off as a real person, mostly because he's supposed to be a normal human. Anyone else gets a free pass because, super powers, super serum, mutant, half alien, whatever, but Batman is supposed to be an Olympic level martial artist in a costume that needs to be protective against knives and bullets but at the same time not too heavy so it won't restrict his movements, while at the same time not looking flat out stupid in the real world.

Then the darker and more 'realistic' the overall tone of the movie gets, the stupider Batman looks because no one is going to run around in a ****ing armorized halloween costume fighting crime. That's why Batman himself kinda stood out like a sore thumb in an otherwise 'this could have happened' The Dark Knight movie, or where Batman possibly can't exist in a movie as grounded in reality as Joker was.

IDK, I guess Batman worked better in the Keaton movies because Burton just had this very weird vibe about his movies, a certain zaniness where you know his version of Gotham is supposed to be in the real world but at the same it's not, unless I missed news of the Red Triangle Circle Gang attacks of the 90s'. Those old school type gangsters operating in then-modern day in the first one and Penguin running around in the giant rubber ducky and just overall tone, it felt like a comic book movie that didn't take itself too seriously.

But nowadays everyone wants to push the envelope on realism and it just doesn't work with Batman because he just can't work in real life. He'd be killed on his third or so mission against regular street thugs. It doesn't work if he and his impossible gadgets and vehicles are the only thing cartoony in the film.

[AquaParade]

I'm curious what y'all would choose as your favorite Batman film. Just to get a bit of the temperature around here.

Mine is easily The Dark Knight. I've probably watched that film more than any other, come to think of it. I find Heath's Joker to be endlessly enigmatic, but the surrounding pieces are all great too. Zimmer's music, the cinematography, the script, Gary Oldman, Michael Cain are all included in that.

I appreciate the hard-edge realism that Christopher Nolan brought to the table, because it allowed people to take the character seriously, in a new way, and it was a joy seeing the residents of Gotham through such a distinct and confident perspective.

Don't get me wrong - I love a Gotham that is stylized, whether that leans towards goth or deco, and I hope to see more of that in the future, but Nolan's universe felt fresh and I appreciate it for that.

That said, I've loved most of the big-screen Batman films, aside from a few like "B&R" and "Forever". Joker is my new favorite, next to The Dark Knight, and I absolutely adore Mask of the Phantasm. The Tim Burton films were a big deal for me at a young age, and deserve heaps of appreciation in their own right.

Anyways, I'm not at all here to argue which Batman film is the best, just curious about favorites.

[MikeandRaph87]

Batman Forever is my favorite for what I expressed above about characters involved. It was not too dark but not full campy either. A close enough middle ground.


Subzero, again the character set is nearly perfect, my second favorite villain and my three Gotham Knights. Barbara only dons the Batgirl costume for 30 seconds though. It would have been the perfect ending to the Mr. Freeze story. I only wish the plot would not have been continued in the last season of Batman: TAS and Batman Beyond.

Mask of The Phantasm- wonderful story and wonderful tone with great animation and characterization that the live action films only touch on. Live-action films can't get to this level of satisfaction especially when my favorites are not involved.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Absolutely The Dark Knight. It's what got me back into Batman as an adult.

[PApagreg]

If we are talking about what we want in a Batman film then I wouldn't mind a Brave and the Bold style one a bit campy but will go into some dark territory

As for favorite Batman film I say Mask of the Phantasm, don't get me wrong The Dark Knight is a great film and I'm not going to torn my nose up at it but I don't really care for the "realistic" give me Gotham City with a goth vibe or go home.

[Andrew NDB]

Ideally I'd want a Batman movie right smack in between the Nolan and Burton takes.

If it ends up that Reeves is going to try and out-Nolan Nolan, then that will be a misstep.

[AquaParade]

Originally Posted by PApagreg

If we are talking about what we want in a Batman film then I wouldn't mind a Brave and the Bold style one a bit campy but will go into some dark territory.

This sounds interesting. I'd love to see something in the tone of Morrison's Batman & Robin: Reborn, which sounds somewhat similar, but I can't say for sure, because I'm not too familiar with Brave and the Bold.

As for favorite Batman film I say Mask of the Phantasm, don't get me wrong The Dark Knight is a great film and I'm not going to torn my nose up at it but I don't really care for the "realistic" give me Gotham City with a goth vibe or go home

That's completely understandable. Gotham City can be a huge presence in Batman stories, but the life is sort of sucked out of it in the Nolan films. The compromise is worth it for me in the end, but I'm anxious to get back to a stylized version of the city.

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Ideally I'd want a Batman movie right smack in between the Nolan and Burton takes.

If it ends up that Reeves is going to try and out-Nolan Nolan, then that will be a misstep.

I think when it comes to realism and tone, I am somewhat expecting a a mix of Nolan and Burton, such as you desire. Given we don't have all that much to go off of, it's obviously just a wild guess, but that's where my head is currently at.

I don't expect him to "out-Nolan Nolan", but I suppose it is possible.

So far, a rough compilation of key-terms we've heard highlighted by Reeves and/or cast members, used to describe this film, have included words like:

Noir, emotional, raw, character-driven. Along with hints that this Batman is "troubled" not a "hero" in the traditional sense. And then we have the music preview, screen-test and a couple set-pics (which I have avoided for the most part) to speculate with. I did see that they were filming at a rather gothic looking cathedral or something the other day.

[MikeandRaph87]

Originally Posted by PApagreg

If we are talking about what we want in a Batman film then I wouldn't mind a Brave and the Bold style one a bit campy but will go into some dark territory

As for favorite Batman film I say Mask of the Phantasm, don't get me wrong The Dark Knight is a great film and I'm not going to torn my nose up at it but I don't really care for the "realistic" give me Gotham City with a goth vibe or go home.

I feel similarly. Some can be realistic ( Penguin, Riddler, Catwoman,Joker, Two Face, Scarecrow, Hugo Strange, Deadshot) while others like (Ra's, Clayface, Killer Croc, Man-Bat) others cannot be without being true to the characters. Ra's al Ghul is a cool twist to mentor Batman, but a part of him is his extended life and Nolan's purpose of the character became muddled. Batman walks the line of believable.