Leo vs Raph - Outcome

[jenna]

Originally Posted by The Shelf

Oh, come on man. I thought it had already been decided here that Leo said that line intentionally to aggravate Raph knowing that it was the only way to get Raph to work off his anger. .

There have been some really fascinating arguments in this thread as to what made Leo say "I'm better than you," and I'm not inclined to say that there is any one answer set in stone. My own thoughts are that despite being the eldest, despite being the leader, Leonardo is only 17(ish) and is still so young. He has always been shown to be torn between his two roles in the world 1. Leonardo the leader and 2. Leonardo the teenager. I love the line in Film 1 where he knee skids up to Master Splinter saying, bursting with excitement: "We have had our first battle. they were many, but we kicked their... [collects himself] we fought well." This to me sums up Leonardo's conflict. He has been entrusted with a responsibility which is too young for. I don't know about you guys but when I was 17 no amount of Bushido, meditation or wise teaching would have kept me from getting into petty arguments and being a normal troublemaking teenager. Hats off to Leo for doing his job as well as he does.

Neither the novelisation nor the movie explain what Leonardo was specifically doing on his training in South America, but I expect that Splinter wanted him to return more mature with more life experience. Whilst he makes every effort, Raphael has the knack for winding him up and in the same way Leo said "You act like a jerk sometimes" in film 1, he just can't help himself but to bite back occassionally.

[Jo Dawn]

I can't vote on this. I don't think there is an answer, to be honest.

Anyhow... I completely agree with jenna here above me for the most part.

And I'm not hating on Don. But Don never seemed to be as strong as a fighter as the other three. But with his brain, he doesn't have to.

I never really got the feeling that he wanted to be. Of all of them, it is least in his nature to do what they do.



EDIT - Though, I have to tell you... Both times I went to see this (so far... and especially the first time), when Leo said that? A majority of the theater went 'Oooooooh'. Hehe.

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by Jo Dawn

I never really got the feeling that he wanted to be. Of all of them, it is least in his nature to do what they do.

That's true, that Don is a very nice guy, and want peace more than anything. But I would like to see him get really pissed off at one of his brothers for destroying one of his inventions in the making.

[The Shelf]

One of my favorite scenes ever with Donatello was in the Volume 4 comic. I think it was in issue 9 when they're trying to figure out a cure for April. There's about 5 or 6 pages to it. Don finds the remains of Baxter Stockman to ask him for a cure since he caused the problem to begin with. Baxter just screws with him the whole time. Finally, Don gets fed up, walks over to the wall, grabs a laser gun, and blows Baxter to pieces. He says, "Goodbye, Baxter. Rot in hell." Best Don scene ever! That pretty much sums up his method of dealing with things. Search exhaustively for a peaceful solution, and if none arises, kick butt. Donny may be relatively peaceful, but if you mess with a loved one he can be wickedly cold. I love it.

[aabxx]

If I recall correctly:

Right before Raphael breaks the katanas, Leo looks down on the weapons and realizes his swords will break. And then, when they break, Leo looks all confused (his eyes literally roll!)... why would he look confused, when seconds earlier he was looking down on his swords noticing they were breaking? Because Leo is busy being confused and does not even look at what Raph is doing, Raphael gets the upper hand... now, that looked VERY staged on Leo's behalf... he knew the swords were going to break, and even if he hadn't known, he would never have acted so confused (he's not a ninja noob, after all...).

At that point, it looked like he was totally in control and got Raph to do exactly what he wanted... even though it probably wasn't his original plan, he must've realized after that shoulder thrust that Raphael was taking it so seriously that even he could not take him down without seriously hurting him.

This view is supported by the fact that Leo is usually supposed to be the better fighter (never mind he has the better weapons too!).

My favourite's Mikey btw so I'm not so biased.

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by aabxx

If I recall correctly:

Right before Raphael breaks the katanas, Leo looks down on the weapons and realizes his swords will break. And then, when they break, Leo looks all confused (his eyes literally roll!)... why would he look confused, when seconds earlier he was looking down on his swords noticing they were breaking? Because Leo is busy being confused and does not even look at what Raph is doing, Raphael gets the upper hand... now, that looked VERY staged on Leo's behalf... he knew the swords were going to break, and even if he hadn't known, he would never have acted so confused (he's not a ninja noob, after all...).

At that point, it looked like he was totally in control and got Raph to do exactly what he wanted... even though it probably wasn't his original plan, he must've realized after that shoulder thrust that Raphael was taking it so seriously that even he could not take him down without seriously hurting him.

This view is supported by the fact that Leo is usually supposed to be the better fighter (never mind he has the better weapons too!).

My favourite's Mikey btw so I'm not so biased.

Leo has the best weapons? Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the 2k3 toon, when the Turtles were having weapons training, and Leo thought his were the best, Splinter was real quick to disarm Leo, with nothing more than a walking stick and his bare hands, chiding Leo on how a true ninja can make a deadly weapon out of anything.

[Masked Ninja]

I am a Leo fan (though not exclusively ) and I think that he lost fair and square. His moment of hesitation was probably the realization that he'd made a dumb mistake - aka, locking his weapons with Raph's. Sai are designed to break swords, and Leo knows his brother is strong enough to do it.

As it tends to be in Leo/Raph fights, the one that's angrier wins. And that was Raph. *shrug* Leo probably was a little overconfident, seeing that he'd been training intensively for a while, and owning relatively easy prey in South America as he did it. And I liked that. Leo's not always right - while he means well most of the time, he certainly has his cocky jerk moments. Yay character depth.

[Swany]

I didnt vote on this one. Because even though Raph won. It was a victory for Leo, he showed Raph that he is the leader. Even if he did get his ass handed to him.

If I recall correctly:

Right before Raphael breaks the katanas, Leo looks down on the weapons and realizes his swords will break. And then, when they break, Leo looks all confused (his eyes literally roll!)... why would he look confused, when seconds earlier he was looking down on his swords noticing they were breaking? Because Leo is busy being confused and does not even look at what Raph is doing, Raphael gets the upper hand... now, that looked VERY staged on Leo's behalf... he knew the swords were going to break, and even if he hadn't known, he would never have acted so confused (he's not a ninja noob, after all...).

At that point, it looked like he was totally in control and got Raph to do exactly what he wanted... even though it probably wasn't his original plan, he must've realized after that shoulder thrust that Raphael was taking it so seriously that even he could not take him down without seriously hurting him.

This view is supported by the fact that Leo is usually supposed to be the better fighter (never mind he has the better weapons too!).

My favourite's Mikey btw so I'm not so biased.

I don't think Leo staged his confusion, I think he was actually suprised that his brother was angry and jelous enough to destroy his katanas.

And Warhorse is right, I just watched that eppy the other day. Its said plenty of times that "Its not the weapon, but the ninja who wields them"
Plus I dont think thats its just that Leo is a better fighter, he just has the most balance, he is able to control his emotions.

Yeah, I do wish they would stop fighting, but theyre brothers, they're close, but theres always conflict. (I should know, I have 3 bros and we argue all the time, even though were close)

[aabxx]

Leo has the best weapons? Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the 2k3 toon, when the Turtles were having weapons training, and Leo thought his were the best, Splinter was real quick to disarm Leo, with nothing more than a walking stick and his bare hands, chiding Leo on how a true ninja can make a deadly weapon out of anything.

They drew weapons that looked cool... it's as simple as that. Now you're gonna tell us the weapons are equal just because Splinter implied so? Yes, try hitting a monster with chucks and tell me how much damage you can do compared to a katana or sai.

[VaughnMichael]

Leo's had this commin' for years.
He's cocky I don't care at who's hands but some one needed to hand his butt to him.

[Shark_Blade]

Originally Posted by abxxx

They drew weapons that looked cool... it's as simple as that. Now you're gonna tell us the weapons are equal just because Splinter implied so? Yes, try hitting a monster with chucks and tell me how much damage you can do compared to a katana or sai.

If you're smart, even a nunchaku can destroy your enemy. Remember Splinter using a nunchaku in the first movie? A ninja is a master of his environment, so any weapon can be deadly if used wisely

[Swany]

Originally Posted by aabxx

They drew weapons that looked cool... it's as simple as that. Now you're gonna tell us the weapons are equal just because Splinter implied so? Yes, try hitting a monster with chucks and tell me how much damage you can do compared to a katana or sai.

Just 'cause their sharp and pointy doesent make them superior.

[aabxx]

Just 'cause their sharp and pointy doesent make them superior.

Yes, that's probably why almost every warrior in Japan was using sharp weapons... but when Japan invaded Okinawa, they eventually banned iron weapons, so the villagers had no choice but to create last ditch weapons from wood. Of course, some wooden weapons are fairly good, but let's not kid ourselves into thinking they managed to create equal weapons from everyday items...

I can turn my amplifier into a deadly weapon by smashing it hard enough onto someone's head but I wouldn't say it's equal to a sword... likewise, nunchakus have their uses but a lot of weapons are simply more lethal. Now, if you want non-lethal weapons, nunchakus look decent... but even then, for the same amount of training, you would be far better off with a staff or a wooden sword (or perhaps go for the mighty baseball bat...).

[jenna]

Originally Posted by aabxx

If I recall correctly:

Right before Raphael breaks the katanas, Leo looks down on the weapons and realizes his swords will break. And then, when they break, Leo looks all confused (his eyes literally roll!)... why would he look confused, when seconds earlier he was looking down on his swords noticing they were breaking? Because Leo is busy being confused and does not even look at what Raph is doing, Raphael gets the upper hand... now, that looked VERY staged on Leo's behalf... he knew the swords were going to break, and even if he hadn't known, he would never have acted so confused (he's not a ninja noob, after all...).

At that point, it looked like he was totally in control and got Raph to do exactly what he wanted... even though it probably wasn't his original plan, he must've realized after that shoulder thrust that Raphael was taking it so seriously that even he could not take him down without seriously hurting him.

This view is supported by the fact that Leo is usually supposed to be the better fighter (never mind he has the better weapons too!).

My favourite's Mikey btw so I'm not so biased.

Leo could never have won this battle for the pure a simple fact that Leonardo is level headed and can control his temper. He does not get lost in his own rage. He was making a conscious effort to fight with gusto but at the same time to not hurt his brother.

Raphael on the other hand, as we have seen in many different occassions, gets so lost in his anger that he loses control of himself. How many times has he nearly killed out of rage (ie Mikey in 2k3 / vol 1 - that was over sparring for crying out loud and his battle with Leo is 18 years of anger and repressed feelings of being the least loved child coming out - pretty big stuff). When Raphael is angry there is something so frightening about how he loses himself - it is almost like a dissasociative psychosis (I'm not saying that he is psychotic, just that his anger is really extreme).

[Seiza]

Originally Posted by jenna

Leo could never have won this battle for the pure a simple fact that Leonardo is level headed and can control his temper. He does not get lost in his own rage. He was making a conscious effort to fight with gusto but at the same time to not hurt his brother.

I know we don't have any hard proof for it, but I do believe this makes the most sense plot-wise. If Leo went into the battle as angry as Raph did, how would that lead Raph to later go into his "I know why you chose him now etc." speech? Something Leo did (and that was to not allow his anger to consume him) made Raph come to that decision. When the weapons are locked, just look at the difference between Raph and Leo's expressions.

Though I do think he went in there wanting to win, and got the tables turned on him. I can't imagine Leo pulling a roundabout-sensei-style lesson when he's so pissed off in the beginning.

[jenna]

Originally Posted by Seiza

I know we don't have any hard proof for it, but I do believe this makes the most sense plot-wise. If Leo went into the battle as angry as Raph did, how would that lead Raph to later go into his "I know why you chose him now etc." speech? Something Leo did (and that was to not allow his anger to consume him) made Raph come to that decision. When the weapons are locked, just look at the difference between Raph and Leo's expressions.

Though I do think he went in there wanting to win, and got the tables turned on him. I can't imagine Leo pulling a roundabout-sensei-style lesson when he's so pissed off in the beginning.

Yeah, I agree Leo went in wanting to win, but didn't quite realise just how upset Raphael was, and that he would take it to the point where he was poised to murder.... the look on his face when those swords snap is like: "Oh sh*t, he's really lost it..."

[Rooish]

I agree. I don't think he honestly thought his swords would break.

[RaphistheBest]

Originally Posted by Tansut

I don't really think there was any blame to be put on anyone, it was just an inevitable sibling fight. Leo, after having been gone for so long, was simply trying to live up to Splinter's expectations and not disappoint while Raph was frustrated that the city wasn't being protected and that they still weren't doing anything about it.

Initially I thought the "I'm better than you" comment by Leo was a bit of a putdown, but really it's just Leo getting to the point of why he's the leader. He was tired of Raph not listening and so he put it bluntly, maybe too bluntly. I also think Leo won the fight, but he stopped in shock once his katanas were broken. You could see him thinking "Whoa...he broke them?" right before he was knocked down because he wasn't expecting Raph to go that far, because at that point Raph was just in a rage and wasn't seeing Leo as Leo, but as the target of all his anger and hate.

Whatever ya think, I think we all can agree that was a fantastic sequence.

For me Raph deserved to win. And Leo's comment about him being better than Raph just showed how much Splinter had pounded that into his head. When you're a teenager and someone tells you repeatedly that you have all the qualities of a leader and that's why you are as such, that goes to your head. I don't care how mature you are that's just what happens. Splinter sending Leo off on his training really cemented that idea. So in my opinion Leo just had a big head because Splinter had made him the leader.

A friend of mine who went to the movie with a big group of us and who isn't much of a turtles fan brought up a very good point after the movie. There was talk about how a leader should have humility and compassion. But for being a leader Leo didn't have to humility or compassion. Leo is just as bad as Raph when it comes to admitting that he's wrong. When Raph screwed up big time he admitted it. When Leo found out that Raph was the Nightwatcher he didn't try to understand, he just got mad. So for my friend that kinda ruined the movie for him because Leo was supposed to be this great leader and he was messing up at it. I guess that it goes to show that Leo and Raph are more alike than they think.

But Raph still deserved to win.

[Revan]

Originally Posted by RaphistheBest

For me Raph deserved to win. And Leo's comment about him being better than Raph just showed how much Splinter had pounded that into his head. When you're a teenager and someone tells you repeatedly that you have all the qualities of a leader and that's why you are as such, that goes to your head. I don't care how mature you are that's just what happens. Splinter sending Leo off on his training really cemented that idea. So in my opinion Leo just had a big head because Splinter had made him the leader.

A friend of mine who went to the movie with a big group of us and who isn't much of a turtles fan brought up a very good point after the movie. There was talk about how a leader should have humility and compassion. But for being a leader Leo didn't have to humility or compassion. Leo is just as bad as Raph when it comes to admitting that he's wrong. When Raph screwed up big time he admitted it. When Leo found out that Raph was the Nightwatcher he didn't try to understand, he just got mad. So for my friend that kinda ruined the movie for him because Leo was supposed to be this great leader and he was messing up at it. I guess that it goes to show that Leo and Raph are more alike than they think.

But Raph still deserved to win.

I wonder what they were trying to communicate with this scene. I've seen it debated back and forth on who deserved to win and both sides of the argument make some sense to me.

I would be interested to know exactly what they were thinking.

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by aabxx

Yes, that's probably why almost every warrior in Japan was using sharp weapons... but when Japan invaded Okinawa, they eventually banned iron weapons, so the villagers had no choice but to create last ditch weapons from wood. Of course, some wooden weapons are fairly good, but let's not kid ourselves into thinking they managed to create equal weapons from everyday items...

I can turn my amplifier into a deadly weapon by smashing it hard enough onto someone's head but I wouldn't say it's equal to a sword... likewise, nunchakus have their uses but a lot of weapons are simply more lethal. Now, if you want non-lethal weapons, nunchakus look decent... but even then, for the same amount of training, you would be far better off with a staff or a wooden sword (or perhaps go for the mighty baseball bat...).

Wow. So your almost saying Leo chose the sword to make up for some sort of shortcomings he may have? Well, geeze, if that is the case, that Leo has it easy because his weapon is a far reaching weapon, and he doesn't have the risk of injury from engaging in close contact fighting, that he would most certaintly have if he was equipped with a nunchuck or sai. So, from that alone, Leo may have the superior weapon, but Raph and Mikey are the more better and fearless fighters, since they don't have much of a weapon to back themselves up except their own skills.

Kind of adds a whole new twist on things.