New Trailer (AGAIN!) The villains of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles!

[Zulithe]

Totally agree with him, HerpDerp. Guy's got some great energy and style too.

[Allio]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

...Says the person who lists NM above the Old Cartoon in his sig...

Oh that... that's from a long time ago, back when I went through my, "OMG, THE ORIGINAL CARTOON AIN'T LIKE THE COMICS... IT IS SO TERRIBLE!!!!" phrase, (also might that I kind of feel like most 80's cartoon's are overrated) and unlike a lot of people that are doing similar things, I've actually gotten over it, I just haven't updated the list.

if I would update it... it would be tougher to choose... I'm very middle ground on the jokes in the old show, but I've really been enjoying the red sky episodes... but Pervy-Mikey has been funny (and I for one don't hate Venus, so 8P)

So I might have it as a tie, and I haven't decided where I would put the IMAGE series though...

at least movie three isn't even on the list (and I don't hate it)

[TheJ-manTurtleMan]

Spoiler:

Originally Posted by HerpDerp

That was actually pretty funny

[Zany Orange Dude]

Originally Posted by HerpDerp

Spoiler:

That was hilarious! Gotta say, brought up some good points.

[Konchadunga]

Originally Posted by Leonardo Mystic

Don't apologize to them. They're some of our resident jerks around here. You did nothing wrong except go against them, which they don't like. Thank you, btw, for having my back.

They can be rude, but they have a point, and you're being hypocritical criticizing out that they don't like people going against them (Who does?), when of course they happen to be going for you.

Do you even care to deny any of the accusations you've gotten from people? If you're a Mirage purist, well fine, but you probably shouldn't be on a site founded largely upon the Fred Wolf series, and with the Mirage series being all-but dead at this point your dogmatism is just setting you up for endless disappointment.

Around a decade ago, I was sick of Fred Wolf purists attacking the 4Kids show, now I've gotten sick of Mirage Purists attacking the Fred Wolf show and anything else that doesn't conform to their views, and it all should be water under the bridge now that we're getting adaptations that try to appeal to everybody; hence I say to shell with purists in general.

Originally Posted by Allio

Oh that... that's from a long time ago, back when I went through my, "OMG, THE ORIGINAL CARTOON AIN'T LIKE THE COMICS... IT IS SO TERRIBLE!!!!" phrase, (also might that I kind of feel like most 80's cartoon's are overrated) and unlike a lot of people that are doing similar things, I've actually gotten over it, I just haven't updated the list.

I agree that most 1980s cartoons are overrated (though there's some popular ones in the 1990s that I think are, too), but I hold TMNT in higher regard than most of its breed just because it, unlike many others, was aware of its own stupidity and took shots at itself. Even if it was a lousy action cartoon and an even worse adaptation, in its situation it probably couldn't do any better, and at least it compensated by being a good sitcom.

That's not to say I'm all that happy with what it did, but it opened me up to thinking about how it should be. Even with no knowledge of the Mirage series, I thought it was lame that the turtles were fighting in the intro and video games, and yet not fighting in the show, and also lame that the villains in the show weren't much of a threat. I like the 2003 show better for this reason, but I'm quite certain that if not for the Fred Wolf series, I wouldn't even have watched the 2003 series--assuming the latter would even come to exist.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by Konchadunga

Even with no knowledge of the Mirage series, I thought it was lame that the turtles were fighting in the intro and video games, and yet not fighting in the show, and also lame that the villains in the show weren't much of a threat. I like the 2003 show better for this reason, but I'm quite certain that if not for the Fred Wolf series, I wouldn't even have watched the 2003 series--assuming the latter would even come to exist.

There are still fight scenes in most episodes of the OT, no matter how brief they are. There are some episodes with no fighting at all, but the other action in the episode sort of makes up for it.

The original cartoon still had plenty of action sequences of sorts in every episode.

[Luzmagica]

....I like a lot the new trailer....its nice to see new Michelangelo actitude....when his 3 brothers are screaming he uses his nunchakus to hit !!! ...Im so glad to see Michelangelo is not so scared as use to be in 2K3 show!!!

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by Konchadunga

They can be rude, but they have a point, and you're being hypocritical criticizing out that they don't like people going against them (Who does?), when of course they happen to be going for you.

Do you even care to deny any of the accusations you've gotten from people? If you're a Mirage purist, well fine, but you probably shouldn't be on a site founded largely upon the Fred Wolf series, and with the Mirage series being all-but dead at this point your dogmatism is just setting you up for endless disappointment.

Around a decade ago, I was sick of Fred Wolf purists attacking the 4Kids show, now I've gotten sick of Mirage Purists attacking the Fred Wolf show and anything else that doesn't conform to their views, and it all should be water under the bridge now that we're getting adaptations that try to appeal to everybody; hence I say to shell with purists in general.

I agree that most 1980s cartoons are overrated (though there's some popular ones in the 1990s that I think are, too), but I hold TMNT in higher regard than most of its breed just because it, unlike many others, was aware of its own stupidity and took shots at itself. Even if it was a lousy action cartoon and an even worse adaptation, in its situation it probably couldn't do any better, and at least it compensated by being a good sitcom.

That's not to say I'm all that happy with what it did, but it opened me up to thinking about how it should be. Even with no knowledge of the Mirage series, I thought it was lame that the turtles were fighting in the intro and video games, and yet not fighting in the show, and also lame that the villains in the show weren't much of a threat. I like the 2003 show better for this reason, but I'm quite certain that if not for the Fred Wolf series, I wouldn't even have watched the 2003 series--assuming the latter would even come to exist.

The thing is, several of the 4Kids villains became parodies of themselves as well, Hun in particular. About the only time The Turtles are really ever down and out are for that long stretch in season one and when Karai took over the Shredder mantle...and even then she didnt pose too much of a threat after her initial story in the role was over.

Shredder and Krang still came far closer to acheiving their goals in the old 'toon than say, Ch'rell ever did. Ch'rell came the closest in the third season with that mammoth warship that was taken apart pretty easily, and then his biggest plot (destroying reality) was undone by Rocksteady and Bebop.

In truth, NOONE has ever been a long-term threat to the Turtles in these shows. We all know the Turtles will win in the end, that's what makes them comic book HEROES.

As for the old 'toon being a "lousy action show"...that's bunk. There were great action scenes in the early and later seasons. Middle-of-the-road I'll probably give you though.

And calling it a "worse adaptation" is also bunk. As it's largely seen as the definitive version of the whole franchise, and everything, from Turtles Forever, IDW, to (apparently) the new movie and the new Nick 'toon, borrows from it now. Outside of one movie that came the closest (while borrowing from the old show too), the TMNT has never had a picture-perfect adaptation, everything else has done it's own thing and created new mythos rather than coast on the laurels of estasblished ones. There is NO "worse adaptation" because everyone has their own views on how TMNT should be handled.

And people only ever say "kids shows from the 80s and 90s are overrated" to show how "cool" they are breaking away from majority opinion and to reflect how they age. There's nothing wrong with those shows, you've just outgrown them. Eventually (hell it's probably started by now), you are going to get people saying how "overrated" the cartoons from the early 2000s were too.

[Genesis]

Eh, I'm with Konchadunga. His words make a lot of sense, at least in this case. To say the OT had "plenty of action" is generous at best, and it implies that the action was all-throughout (Seasons 1 and 7, maybe), and we know that's not the case. The severe lack of action is what made me care significantly less for the OT as I grew up, (though the first movie never lost its charm, to me).

As for the bad adaptation bit, it's easy to say that it's all open to interpretation now, but back then, Eastman and Laird's comics were all that existed. From that perspective, the cartoon was a poor adaptation, if not a really peculiar one. Now, (because of the OT, really) it's much easier to accept interpretations that go way left field.

You wanna talk about "bunk," yet you ignore suspension of disbelief to proclaim that all the Turtles' villains have zero threat value, because the Turtles are the heroes, so we know they'll win? Come on, that'd be a double-standard to only apply that to the 2k3 series.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by Genesis

Eh, I'm with Konchadunga. His words make a lot of sense, at least in this case. To say the OT had "plenty of action" is generous at best, and it implies that the action was all-throughout (Seasons 1 and 7, maybe), and we know that's not the case. The severe lack of action is what made me care significantly less for the OT as I grew up, (though the first movie never lost its charm, to me).

What are you talking about? There are big action sequences in every episode. The OT NEVER lacked an action sequence in most episodes. Even some of the middle eps that lacked a fight scene still had a huge action sequence.

Maybe some of you should rewatch the OT on DVD because you don't remember it very well.

[Allio]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

What are you talking about? There are big action sequences in every episode. The OT NEVER lacked an action sequence in most episodes. Even some of the middle eps that lacked a fight scene still had a huge action sequence.

Maybe some of you should rewatch the OT on DVD because you don't remember it very well.

I'm going to have to agree with Genesis... I've been watching the old toon and on season 2 (will be getting season 3 soon) so far... so far, it's lacking in the action sequence, the only one that I think was any fun, was in "the incredible shrinking turtles" where Shredder beat the turtles, and even then it was lack luster

[hudemx]

Originally Posted by Allio

I'm going to have to agree with Genesis... I've been watching the old toon and on season 2 (will be getting season 3 soon) so far... so far, it's lacking in the action sequence, the only one that I think was any fun, was in "the incredible shrinking turtles" where Shredder beat the turtles, and even then it was lack luster

And what about Enter the Fly?
You've got: Turtles VS Shredder, Knucklehead, Bebop & Rocksteady in the second Act and all Villains against the TMNT in the climax.
You even got a Mad Max Style appearence by Splinter ^^

[Allio]

Originally Posted by hudemx

And what about Enter the Fly?
You've got: Turtles VS Shredder, Knucklehead, Bebop & Rocksteady in the second Act and all Villains against the TMNT in the climax.
You even got a Mad Max Style appearence by Splinter ^^

haven't gotten to that episode yet. just recently finished, "It came from beneath the sewers" (though watched that a few weeks ago)

Though I use to have a vhs copy with that episode on it, along with Case of the killer pizzas... but I don't remember anything to spectacular about it (save for Baxter turning into a fly) but hey, watching it again might change my mind... let us just wait and see

[hudemx]

Originally Posted by Allio

...but I don't remember anything to spectacular about it (save for Baxter turning into a fly) but hey, watching it again might change my mind... let us just wait and see

Enter the Fly has got the best animation quality in all season 2 - it's definitly a must watch

I'm really looking forward to you opinion on the episode after you rewatched it

[CyberCubed]

There's plenty of action in those episodes, you're just comparing it to modern cartoons where fight scenes take up half the episode.

[Mona_Lisa]

I like all the diff. ninja turtle versions Except The Next Mutation... But I hate that "power rangers" feel it has to it.... Its just not my style!

[Genesis]

CyberCubed, I really think we define action sequences quite differently.

If standing around and making witty comments while throwing stuff at the enemies counts as an action scene, then the OT was positively loaded with 'em.

Season 7 was one of the best sets of episodes for action scenes, but those certainly didn't define the OT as a whole. I know you're much more forgiving to it, but you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who agrees that there was solid action in every episode. Again, you're just being generous, and that's okay. We all cut our favourite incarnations a good bit of slack for their faults.

[Slash32]

Although the comics are the creaters the ot cartoon is really the franchise in it's own i mean come on now people bought the figures because of the show people saw the first movie because of the show the reason there are sites like this is because of that show and if you grew up in the 80's this was one of the best cartoons out there it was great for it's time all the cartoons in that era were the same

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by Genesis

CyberCubed, I really think we define action sequences quite differently.

If standing around and making witty comments while throwing stuff at the enemies counts as an action scene, then the OT was positively loaded with 'em.

That's not what I'm talking about at all. Robots attacking the Turtles, people being saved at the last minute, characters being attacked by lasers, etc.

[Konchadunga]

Genesis basically summed up my stance well, but just for some clarification, let me address each point.

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

The thing is, several of the 4Kids villains became parodies of themselves as well, Hun in particular. About the only time The Turtles are really ever down and out are for that long stretch in season one and when Karai took over the Shredder mantle...and even then she didnt pose too much of a threat after her initial story in the role was over.

Shredder and Krang still came far closer to acheiving their goals in the old 'toon than say, Ch'rell ever did. Ch'rell came the closest in the third season with that mammoth warship that was taken apart pretty easily, and then his biggest plot (destroying reality) was undone by Rocksteady and Bebop.

The reason I say Ch'rell was more of a threat is that he was actually played as a straight villain, typically came off as a more competent fighter, and owing to the less episodic nature of the series, it took the turtles longer to defeat him at times than it took them to defeat OT Shredder. (Who was often nailed at the end of every episode, and that he escaped isn't an excuse to say he was competent, because they just did that to keep the show formulaic.)

Make no mistake, though, I am not a Ch'rell fan. Making him an alien in itself didn't bother me as much as it did many people, but the way he just kept coming back when he was so one-dimensional compared to the show's other villains just wore my patience past breaking point, and that's even before they introduced other versions of Shredder. Mirage Shredder is much better for actually having a human motive to do what he did, and Fred Wolf Shredder is the most likeable of all because he wasn't just a cliche villain; he was an actual character who was fun to watch and hear regardless of what he was doing. Still, due to the changed nature of that show, most of the time he never felt like a menace.

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

As for the old 'toon being a "lousy action show"...that's bunk. There were great action scenes in the early and later seasons. Middle-of-the-road I'll probably give you though.

Middle-of-the-road is what I meant, and unfortunately it was also most of the show. While ostensibly it had a lot of action, too much of that was slapstick as opposed to fighting.

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

And calling it a "worse adaptation" is also bunk. As it's largely seen as the definitive version of the whole franchise, and everything, from Turtles Forever, IDW, to (apparently) the new movie and the new Nick 'toon, borrows from it now. Outside of one movie that came the closest (while borrowing from the old show too), the TMNT has never had a picture-perfect adaptation, everything else has done it's own thing and created new mythos rather than coast on the laurels of estasblished ones. There is NO "worse adaptation" because everyone has their own views on how TMNT should be handled.

Genesis said it best: When I said it was a "worse" adaptation, I was referring to its inaccuracy to the source material. Also, note the full statement: I was saying it was a worse adaptation than it was an action cartoon; not that it was a worse adaptation than other TMNT series were--although if accuracy to the Mirage comics was the parameter, that would be true as well. I agree that accuracy to the Mirage comics shouldn't be the parameter now, but at the time the Fred Wolf show was new, that was the only possible parameter.

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

And people only ever say "kids shows from the 80s and 90s are overrated" to show how "cool" they are breaking away from majority opinion and to reflect how they age.

How dare you presume to tell me what my motive is for my opinion; you bigoted shellhead?! Do you realize that a lot of the people who whine about how much better the 1980s and 1990s are also think they're cool for breaking away from the majority opinion? In fact these people are largely the reason I consider those shows overrated; not necessarily bad, but not deserving of the rose-tinted treatment they get.

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

There's nothing wrong with those shows, you've just outgrown them.

Then kindly explain why I still watch action cartoons today. If everything were as of equal quality as you allege it is, then when I "grew out of" 1980s and 1990s shows, logically I would have grown out of all of such shows. Oh wait; you did give an explanation, it's just pitiful.

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

Eventually (hell it's probably started by now), you are going to get people saying how "overrated" the cartoons from the early 2000s were too.

Again; get the shell off of your high horse and quit accusing me of being unable to think objectively. I have done nothing to solicit that. The truth is that no; I can think objectively. That doesn't just cease to be true when I happen to arrive at different opinions than you or most people do, and I can tell you that when I look back on cartoons of the 2000s, it is in fact, a mixed bag; effectively disproving your thesis that I am concluding every show from that decade is overrated now that it is past.

Some examples: I found TMNT 2003 my favorite show of the decade. Rewatching it now, it's got some problems I didn't care about as a teen; meanwhile rewatching TMNT 1987 as an adult, it has a lot of humor I didn't appreciate as a kid--yet I still consider 2003 to be the better show, and that opinion isn't changing anytime soon. I have my reasons; I suggest you watch this video to explain them: I'm not asking you to agree with this; I'm just saying that I mostly do and so posting this saves me a wall of text. Meanwhile, I feel W.I.T.C.H. is still an underrated gem, that it did the "girl-centered-fantasy-show-with-actual-character-diversity-and-development" thing before and better than My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic does, and wish W.I.T.C.H. got the praise for doing that instead. These days, I like Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog better than I did as a kid, while I like the so-called SatAM a lot less than I did then, but I still think both are far superior to the 2000s' own Sonic X.

I think I've made my point. Your thesis about my inobjectivity is rude and wrong, so shut up and seriously; learn some tact. I spent last post taking your side against Leo Mystic, and all the thanks you give me is that sort of demeaning accusation? Shame on you! You need to learn some manners; badly.