Official Ep Discussion S4 Ep 10: Trans-Dimensional Turtles

[Galactus]

It's not that big of a deal for me but it can be frustrating for fans who want the story to advance particularly if you're watching the show as it airs. Remember when people complained the Northampton arc lasted way too long and they were stuck on the farm forever. I didn't personally think it was too long but the schedule of releasing new episodes meant it "felt" slower. Now space seems like a more diverse environment so it doesn't feel as static but I can see why fans are eager to see the story progress.

I think the biggest difference had this episode have been made outside of the space arc it would be that it wouldn't bother with the time travel aspect which I thought was bit odd but gave me my favorite scene of the turtles encountering their Splinter so I can't complain too much.

[IndigoErth]

A bit "eh" on the designs, but fun episode and awesome they were able to get the old cast in on it. Filler for sure I guess, but I like that the time frame allowed them a short visit with Splinter and home. At least that sort of tied a mostly filler-type episode in with the rest. Mirage Turtles appearance was pretty awesome - I really want to know what was going through their minds. lol

Megan Fox, huh? Too bad she plays April, roughly speaking, and not an Irma.

[Papenbrook]

Originally Posted by neatoman

As for making it a two parter, let me be blunt, no. This episode is already pointless as it is, it adds nothing to the story, it came out of nowhere and the arc it interrupted has been going on for nine episodes and will continue for four more. A second episode would just eat up more time.

Originally Posted by neatoman

Do I need to remind people that this show isn't meant for stuff like this? Concluding the space arc (part of the ongoing story) ought to be a higher priority than making a crossover with a show that was cancelled twenty years ago.

Agreed.

I have already lost interest in this show. At first, it kept using the OT cartoon as its own baseline. Now, it is actually using the OT for unneeded fan-service. Why must it rely so much on the OT?!

[Powder]

Originally Posted by Papenbrook

I have already lost interest in this show.

& the forums by extension, right?

[Ninturtle]

Originally Posted by neatoman

Because it has nothing to do with what's going on, the difference is that it wpuld feel far less out of place in the middle of other filler episodes.

The Krang situation the OT turtles were dealing with could have happened anytime so it's not hard to believe it happened coincidenently while the turtles are in space.

[Papenbrook]

Originally Posted by Powder

& the forums by extension, right?

No, but some people are starting to/ have lost interest, Powder.

Originally Posted by Warhorse

Probably season 2 is the best, at least first half is. Then season 1. Season 3 however, just awful. Like Platinum Dunes TMNT movie awful.

Originally Posted by Refractive Reflections

The first season was the best of the series (at least from what I tried to continue in watching), particularly the first two-thirds of the first season.

One of the biggest reasons was that we saw the Turtles engage and relate to the characters, especially the villains, in a deeper way (Bradford with Mikey, Fishface with Raph, and Leo with Karai and Fong, Donnie with Timothy); by doing so, it revealed the different facets of the Turtles, and as the series continued, appeared to be a progressive path of character development for the Turtles. Yet as it neared closer to the end of season 1... somehow that all fell apart:

1) The increasing caricature or one-dimensional depiction of the main characters. Mikey's increasing idiocy, the hyperfocus on making Raph a one-dimensional character with anger problems, Donnie's growing stalker like behavior around April, April becoming more like a Mary Sue, the ongoing overemphasis of the Donnie-April-Casey love triangle, etc.

2) The transition of making the villains as interesting characters with a backstory (i.e. Bradford, Fishface), to becoming "mutant villains of the week" (Season 2 and afterward).

3) And the most grating: The plot amnesia with the show, which undermines whatever lessons learned or whatever little growth there was for the characters (i.e. through the characters relating to each other as explained earlier), and now traded for more cliche school morale messages (i.e. "I can do anything if I believe in myself and my training!")


I don't know if it was the pressure from Nick or the production crew to change the format of a serial show to a more procedural-leaning one (with the show's plot amnesia), or to focus on the action figure merchandise (aka "mutant of the week") from Nick, or the departure of Sternin & Ventimilia, is the cause for the very disappointing tone and execution shift, but somewhere near the end Season 1 there's a gradual change in the show's direction.

It wasn't my favorite TMNT series from the start, but at least with the first season there was a lot of potential from what I saw and I was genuinely interested to see where it would go, but it never seemed to want to explore that potential in the show's narrative or maybe it was just oblivious to what good potential it had. By the time I saw the Season 2 finale, all of that potential I once saw, now all seems wasted and a distant memory.

What makes it worse is how this show was seemingly meant to encapsulate the "best" of the TMNT legacy, but it doesn't seem to quite do that. It doesn't have the solid, serial-formatted storywriting that 4Kids has, neither does it have the witty humor of the OT but rather has low-brow immature humor (i.e. Mikey being painfully dumb, farts, belching, the ongoing love triangle). It has quickly forgotten villains and developments (i.e. the Technodrome, the Foot Clan becoming nearly invincible robots, TigerClaw's ruthlessness), which the show hypes beyond the actual magnitude of their impact. Strangely enough, the show seems to be on its own non-distinct (by using numerous other TMNT elements and horror movies) and fairly unimpressive path within the TMNT franchise.

Originally Posted by Metalwolf

A round of applause for you RR!

Pretty much what you'd said sums up quite a lot of what I've been feeling. I think to add my own bits, for me the downhill transition started at Manhattan Project, since there was a lot in the two-parter that seemed unnaturally goofy and cartoonish. Xever giving Tigerclaw a glass of milk (cartoonish idea of cats liking milk) the cheese phone (rats liking cheese) and Bradford losing easily despite his superior second form didn't seem all that 'cute.'

I really think losing those two writers kind of killed things, since they seemed to know how to balance a lot of the show's elements, and once they left the show either hewed too much towards goofy at times or left a lot of the characters (especially the villains) underdeveloped and weak. I wish they could come back, the show could use their talents again.

Originally Posted by BabyTurtles

Season 1 by far.

first part of season 2 was cool too.

[GoldMutant]

......Those are all from earlier in the show's lifespan, especially from RR (seriously wish he can come back ) and the others. Warhorse practically quit come Clash of the Mutanimals and I'm unsure on Babyturtles. Yes, they all came from last year as responses to the Which Season is the Best? thread, but tuned out probably beforehand and wanted to offer their two cents.

[Xav]

Originally Posted by Vegita-San

Jim Cummings, or that guy who came out of nowhere in season 10 and never heard from him again after that. William E Martin. assuming that isn't a monkiker.

Unfortunately the chances of William E Martin returning are the same as James Avery's.

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

But Dimension X exists in the original cartoon's universe, and as we've seen, Nick's Dimension X is completely different with weird gravity, floating worm creatures, and it seems to have no other alien races other than Kraang there.

But we did see other alien races in Nick's Dimension X like the Rock Soldiers, of course they look nothing like their Fred Wolf counterparts.

[spookycookies]

Very fun episode I really enjoyed it. But what was that Megan Fox joke? I must have totally missed it...

[Ninturtle]

Originally Posted by Papenbrook

No, but some people are starting to/ have lost interest in the show, Powder.

He really doesn't care about people losing interest in the show, he just want you to leave this forum like a lot of users do.

[TurtleGuy]

Originally Posted by Xav

Unfortunately the chances of William E Martin returning are the same as James Avery's.
But we did see other alien races in Nick's Dimension X like the Rock Soldiers, of course they look nothing like their Fred Wolf counterparts.

I wonder if Krang created his own Dimension X after being banished?

Krang: Screw you guys! I'll just make my own Dimension X and I'll be overlord with my own rock soldiers! And it'll have Blackjack! And Hookers!

It's a farfetched theory and I just wanted an excuse to make Krang quote Futurama.

[IndigoErth]

Originally Posted by Papenbrook

No, but some people are starting to/ have lost interest in the show, Powder.

*shrug* People lose interest in things, it's life. Prob still have older TMNT they still love, and something new may catch their interest again someday.

[Galactus]

Originally Posted by turtle1237

The crying, but what about the running away and acting scared when the battle was 2 much for ot turtles?

That seemed reminscent of many episodes like Bebop and Rocksteady conquer the Universe were the turtles were hit by weird rays that made them cowards but if you want an episode it happened while the turtles were supposed to be in character check out Snakes Alive were Leonardo contiually cowers in fear and runs away from battle leaving his brothers without help.

And I dont recall a lot of noggies in the OT, I cant recall one really. In Forever, the turles were giving out noggies like every 5 mins?

Actually that's the only thing I'd say in the special that wasn't drawn from the old show although it's hardly something that would never happen in the old show. Also correct me if I'm wrong but in Turtles Forever it happened twice hardly "every five minutes"

Sorry, but Forever may of hit on some points on the old turtles, but they miss the mark by a long shot.

Too much is specifically drawn from the old show to say that. Jokes from specific episodes paraphrased or quoted verbatim, actions the turtles take that are not only similar emulate the animation of the original episode.

Like I said would have been better if they'd forgone all the goofy characterization and focused on portraying more on "better" seasons/episodes? Maybe but the whole point is seemingly to portray three very different sets of turtles. It was handled fairly well here but at times it didn't seem like we were getting two very similar versions.

And only Mikey had a pizza addiction in the old toon. Many times, the Turtles would saved the day over vs a slice. In fact, some times the turtles try to help Mike with his pizza habit.

And there were many episodes they were portrayed as all equally as into pizza.

[TurtleGuy]

Originally Posted by Galactus

That seemed reminscent of many episodes like Bebop and Rocksteady conquer the Universe were the turtles were hit by weird rays that made them cowards but if you want an episode it happened while the turtles were supposed to be in character check out Snakes Alive were Leonardo contiually cowers in fear and runs away from battle leaving his brothers without help.

But in Snakes Alive's case that was justified with Leonardo having a crippling fear of snakes and he overcame said fear in the end.

Actually that's the only thing I'd say in the special that wasn't drawn from the old show although it's hardly something that would never happen in the old show. Also correct me if I'm wrong but in Turtles Forever it happened twice hardly "every five minutes"

While not giving each others noogies every five minutes, let's look at some other out of character moments such as Donatello not knowing the difference between a wrench and a hammer, Donatello saying that "Science isn't all about facts", the turtles constantly grinning and laughing at their own jokes and taking absolutely nothing seriously, or wondering why trashcans had no affect on a GIANT SHREDDER. They usually treated even the weirdest plans with some bit of seriousness. Or at least more seriously than the Turtles Forever FW Turtles did. And at least here, you can tell which character is which unlike Turtles Forever where all four of them were practically interchangable idiots with Raph throwing a fourth wall joke here and there(or as 2003 Raph put it "Four Mikeys").

Too much is specifically drawn from the old show to say that. Jokes from specific episodes paraphrased or quoted verbatim, actions the turtles take that are not only similar emulate the animation of the original episode.

Like I said would have been better if they'd forgone all the goofy characterization and focused on portraying more on "better" seasons/episodes? Maybe but the whole point is seemingly to portray three very different sets of turtles. It was handled fairly well here but at times it didn't seem like we were getting two very similar versions.

I'm just gonna quote Konchadunga since he put it best:

Originally Posted by Konchadunga

The best they can claim is some meta accuracy; like they distilled the whole show's silliness onto the Turtles, but that's still wrong. It would be like having one of the dark, gritty Batman incarnations of the modern era having a crossover with the Adam West Batman, if the latter was constantly saying phrases that began with "holy" and making puns, yes; that existed in the show but it wasn't Batman who did it!

I'd honestly would've preferred they show the differences between the turtles a little more subtlety instead of trying to hammer in the differences between the two incarnations about as a bluntly as a hammer to the crotch.

[Utrommaniac]

Originally Posted by TurtleGuy

I wonder if Krang created his own Dimension X after being banished?

Krang: Screw you guys! I'll just make my own Dimension X and I'll be overlord with my own rock soldiers! And it'll have Blackjack! And Hookers!

It's a farfetched theory and I just wanted an excuse to make Krang quote Futurama.

Right! Someone get Pat Fraley to do voice that!

I like to think that with Dimension X being so enormous and obscure, it would have two different dimensional planes.

[SKX31]

Originally Posted by Galactus

.
Like I said would have been better if they'd forgone all the goofy characterization and focused on portraying more on "better" seasons/episodes? Maybe but the whole point is seemingly to portray three very different sets of turtles. It was handled fairly well here but at times it didn't seem like we were getting two very similar versions.

Oh bloody hell yes. Thank you for mentioning that.

I may be in the camp that thinks that 4Kids were not perfect when it came to handling the OT Turtles (although I don't think it was butchered), but that was far from the only thing about the special. Just as the "worse" parts of any given cartoon / special / whatever shouldn't be ignored in favor of the "better" (or vice versa - it risks creating a very skewed impression).

Yes, I can understand why people do that - I mean, do people really wanna remember absolute OT classics like Agatha Marbles and the bland villain plot of the week (mostly courtesy of the Shredder)? Not to mention how inconsistent Fred Wolf was from episode to episode?

In that vein, I'm echoing Mark Pellegrini:

This show (OT) is something unique unto itself. It is weird and spontaneous, but it can also be derivative and predictable. There are episodes where the animation quality surprises you and the show looks fluid and gorgeous. And then there are episodes that look like the Korean guy animating it had a seizure on his drawing board, the ink and paint guy was colorblind and the cel photographer was hoping that if he did a bad enough job someone would FINALLY fire him. But no one ever did.

This show can be brilliant, hilarious, exciting, crazy and otherwise inspired… but then nearly as often, it just goes through the motions to meet first run syndication deadlines. So yes, this show is flawed. VERY flawed, in fact. But all those little quality control malfunctions and inane nonsense are also part of its charm. If this show was competent 100% of the time it wouldn’t be nearly as entertaining.

You can watch the show distilled down to just its best episodes, sure. And for a while, I considered putting together an abridged viewing list; just the best episodes or the ones that mattered most to the narrative. But that would be sort of missing the point. You kind of NEED that crap, those episodes with lazy animation, recycled scripts, contradictory continuity and plot holes the size of the Technodrome. They’re as fundamental as the highlights; you can’t have the wheat without the chaff.

This goes for all shows, really. You can't just ignore the executive meddling behind >> and BttS when it comes to 4Kids. But neither should you ignore its strong points either. Same goes with Nick - so far, it's been the innovative reinvention of characters as a big positive and the handling of many, many villains (Karai and Shredder's goons) as a major negative.

Yea, I'm a broken record (again) - but it's an anvil worth dropping.

[Galactus]

Originally Posted by TurtleGuy

But in Snakes Alive's case that was justified with Leonardo having a crippling fear of snakes and he overcame said fear in the end.

Yes he overcomes his fear at the climax of the episode but given that he's the leader of a group of heroes his actions of continually cowering seem like an overly goofy way of portraying fear but if we accept that the turtles act that when when scared then why can't we say they have a crippling fear of being erased. It's not like they didn't step up and fight back in Turtles Forever either.

let's look at some other out of character moments such as Donatello not knowing the difference between a wrench and a hammer,

Leonardo Lightens Up. It's pretty clear that is a reference to Donatello using a wrench as a hammer in that episode so much so that the animation copies that episode pretty nicely.

Donatello saying that "Science isn't all about facts",

Well yeah but then the depiction of whether Donatello's science knowledge was brilliant within the laws of the old show or whether he was kinda screwy who most of his inventions don't work I think is enough to justify a line like this.

The depiction the turtles constantly grinning and laughing at their own jokes and taking absolutely nothing

This is an interesting one. The turtles throughout most of the very smiley and grin-y. It's accentuated in Turtles Forever because they have visible teeth when smiling which the turtles only had in the first season and when they weren't always grinning. The inclusion of the first season teeth gives Turtles Forever a Cheshire cat quality.

As for laughing in unison there's plenty of examples of that, heck even in the 'better' seasons. Like Enter The Shredder were the three turtles upon hearing about a zoo theft break into fits of laughter.

seriously, or wondering why trashcans had no affect on a GIANT SHREDDER.

The turtles used fish to battle a ninja army and they often used trash cans and garbage and pizza in slap stick fights to good affect for them to justify that joke.

They usually treated even the weirdest plans with some bit of seriousness. Or at least more seriously than the Turtles Forever FW Turtles did.

I'm not so sure about that. There was a great site that reviewed the old show called TMNT Dissected and pointed out that once they started making regular fourth wall joke their commitment to fully beating bad guys went away.

Remember Night of Rogues were they tar Shredder and start cracking up instead of stopping him from getting away? Hey that's another example of the turtles cracking themselves up.

I often read that Leonardo in particular wasn't leader-y enough but apart from that first season his leadership generally amounted to saying things like "get serious guys" or "let's go turtles" which is what he pretty much did in Turtles Forever. When the Fred Wolf turtles are all cracking up over Utrom Shredder it's '87 Leo which breaks it up and says they've got to get to the lair.

At least here, you can tell which character is which unlike Turtles Forever where all four of them were practically interchangable idiots with Raph throwing a fourth wall joke here and there(or as 2003 Raph put it "Four Mikeys").

I think a great example of the turtles all becoming like Michelangelo is in A Thing About Rats when they arrive at April's apartment. Despite regularly eating pizza Michelangelo doesn't know he can't bite though a box, Raphael doesn't know how to use a shampoo instruction and ends up surfing into her living room, Leonardo who has paintings in the lair thinks April's painting is a target (or doesn't care that it's a painting) and Donatello doesn't know how to work an answering machine (see that isn't always the smart one) and that was one of the "good" episodes.

The show was full of that. Episodes were three turtles act the same (generally like Mikey) apart from the focus turtle or the other way around were the focus turtle acts way out of character in comparison to his sane brothers.

I'm just gonna quote Konchadunga since he put it best:

I'd honestly would've preferred they show the differences between the turtles a little more subtlety instead of trying to hammer in the differences between the two incarnations about as a bluntly as a hammer to the crotch.

I've said it twice in this thread that may have been better although no one cares that the 4kids turtles are somewhat humorless and a lot of their continuity gets skipped over or that the Mirage turtles are basically the same dark killer types. I tend to think a lot of the (justified) jokes wouldn't have really worked if they'd tried for subtlety but I we'll never know. It's not like this episode portrayed them distinctly different enough from the Turtles Forever approach.

[CyberCubed]

Also I'm pretty sure the original Turtles always laughing was largely taken from the second episode when April tells the Turtles about Bebop/Rocksteady for the first time. And they're standing there disguised in their punk outfits and they burst out laughing about a "rhino and warthog."

There are also several other episodes they burst out laughing over a villain, like when they see The Swatter in Season 6.

[Kilowog]

Dug the 1984 cameo quite a bit.

[turtle1237]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Also I'm pretty sure the original Turtles always laughing was largely taken from the second episode when April tells the Turtles about Bebop/Rocksteady for the first time. And they're standing there disguised in their punk outfits and they burst out laughing about a "rhino and warthog."

There are also several other episodes they burst out laughing over a villain, like when they see The Swatter in Season 6.

few times, the one mention was when Shredder stole zoo animals for what would be Bebop and Rocksteady.

Now the Turtles laugh because even they can not believe that Shredder and Krang would be reduce to stealing zoo animals. It was a crime that really didn't fit the villains.

Again, the Turtles very rarely laugh at the villains, but in this case, it was warrant because in stand of trying to rule the world, Shredder is out stealing zoo animals.