Episode Discussion S2 #16 "The Lonely Mutation of Baxter Stockman"

[JTH]

Originally Posted by BubblyShell22

I agree with BT and Jon in that one of the flaws of this show is acting like a character doesn't exist until the plot calls for them. Yeah, Tim's there, but it's like he didn't exist for them since they never mentioned him. I'm sure he'll crop up again when the plot calls for it because that's the way this show rolls.

Honestly though, the fact they show Timothy in the background still frozen is enough for me, it shows he's still there and for that he doesn't need to be mentioned by the characters themselves.

Plus, if they mentioned Timothy in the episode as nothing more than an add-on throwaway line, people would have complained "Why even mention him if you're not going to follow up on it or use him?"

It's just a matter of not being able to please everybody.

[rickwj324]

Originally Posted by BubblyShell22

I agree with BT and Jon in that one of the flaws of this show is acting like a character doesn't exist until the plot calls for them. Yeah, Tim's there, but it's like he didn't exist for them since they never mentioned him. I'm sure he'll crop up again when the plot calls for it because that's the way this show rolls.

Yeah, I get what you guys are saying, but it's also a 22 minute kids show and it primarily focuses on the center of that particular episode. 22 minutes is not a lot of time to tell a story and bogging it down with other little tidbits of storylines would just take away from the story at hand. The pieces of stories that they put on the back-burner will get revisited again when the timing is right.

I think for a show that's primarily aimed at kids (the nick key demographic) it still comes across as very adult and does a wonderful job at telling a story (whether it's a single episode storyline or part of a continuing arc of stories). This truly has turned into one of my all-time favorite cartoons.

Rick

[BabyTurtles]

Originally Posted by rickwj324

Yeah, I get what you guys are saying, but it's also a 22 minute kids show and it primarily focuses on the center of that particular episode. 22 minutes is not a lot of time to tell a story and bogging it down with other little tidbits of storylines would just take away from the story at hand. The pieces of stories that they put on the back-burner will get revisited again when the timing is right.

I think for a show that's primarily aimed at kids (the nick key demographic) it still comes across as very adult and does a wonderful job at telling a story (whether it's a single episode storyline or part of a continuing arc of stories). This truly has turned into one of my all-time favorite cartoons.

Rick

I hate when people say this .......that's not a good excuse at all.
(I'm not targeting you, but I gotta get this out)

Avatar the Last Airbender was a 22 minute kids show and it brought up past events in episodes all the time....they were constantly mentioning characters that weren't even in the episode. When Aang/Zuko or anyone regretted something it didn't just go away the next episode.

When Appa got kidnapped Aang was devastated for 2 episodes...and was still upset until they got Appa back, Appa was never forgotten....they put up posters and tried looking for him whenever they had the time in future episodes. He was constantly mentioned. And Appa didn't come back until the last episodes of the season.

Karai is Splinters daughter? we don't get a reaction for a few episodes....in fact why aren't they pondering it right now?
April had to live with the turtles? We don't see how she copes
Slash betrays Raph....we don't see how he feels later.
Tim needs to get demutated? no mention of him.

I'm happy that we have seen Donnie work on the retromutagen for a while now.....but I wish we could see more important things being mentioned. Even if it's a different episode.....

even if it's a few seconds...continuing off something is important. "It's a kids show" is not a good excuse for them not to try their best and make an awesome story.

[Luckyday]

Originally Posted by BabyTurtles

I hate when people say this .......that's not a good excuse at all.
(I'm not targeting you, but I gotta get this out)

Avatar the Last Airbender was a 22 minute kids show and it brought up past events in episodes all the time....they were constantly mentioning characters that weren't even in the episode. When Aang/Zuko or anyone regretted something it didn't just go away the next episode.

When Appa got kidnapped Aang was devastated for 2 episodes...and was still upset until they got Appa back, Appa was never forgotten....they put up posters and tried looking for him whenever they had the time in future episodes. He was constantly mentioned. And Appa didn't come back until the last episodes of the season.

Karai is Splinters daughter? we don't get a reaction for a few episodes....in fact why aren't they pondering it right now?
April had to live with the turtles? We don't see how she copes
Slash betrays Raph....we don't see how he feels later.
Tim needs to get demutated? no mention of him.

I'm happy that we have seen Donnie work on the retromutagen for a while now.....but I wish we could see more important things being mentioned. Even if it's a different episode.....

even if it's a few seconds...continuing off something is important. "It's a kids show" is not a good excuse for them not to try their best and make an awesome story.

I think the reason why we don't have those moments is not because "it's a kid's show" but because it's trying move away from being a character driven show to be much more like an action plot driven show or in this case, just an action driven since there no clear goals other then "find all mutagen" and everything that gets revealed is usually done through by chance with reactive characters instead of active characters.

[BabyTurtles]

Originally Posted by Luckyday

I think the reason why we don't have those moments is not because "it's a kid's show" but because it's trying move away from being a character driven show to be much more like an action plot driven show or in this case, just an action driven since there no clear goals other then "find all mutagen" and everything that gets revealed is usually done through by chance with reactive characters instead of active characters.

maybe, I thought this show was more character driven at first though.

[JTH]

Originally Posted by BabyTurtles

maybe, I thought this show was more character driven at first though.

Well it was at first, that's what Lucky was saying.

But when it was clear that the characters were established, the show became more as to what Lucky was referring to. And as the show has continued, it's become more of a show where it's the plot driving the characters rather than the characters driving the plot; if that makes any sense to understand.

In some cases that can work, and right now they're writing the story where they're letting the plot write out the characters involves, where as I think a lot people on here would like it the other way around.

I personally don't mind either way, if done well.

[Luckyday]

It really shouldn't. I mean you have ridiculous good voice cast that can lend itself well to character arcs. To go in the opposite direction would be a huge mistake on their part, but understandably because, the only character driven storylines from the comics or whatever had only the Shredder. To make something that revolves around the main four instead the other way would require taking a risk and creating something new rather the re-inventing something we have already seen from OT.

[Jon_Talbain]

Originally Posted by Metalwolf

I sent you a PM, let me know if it it is it too long. I'm tring not to write book length stuff, but it can be hard not to. If it is long, I'll try to cut it down next time

But I agree. Although on Amazon where you can buy the Nick TMNT episodes, there is a free 'informational' that you can watch that mentions what to do and what not to do if you come across any strange canisters. I haven't watched it yet, but it does show that people are noticing stuff and that it is getting on the news. Plus I bet that Timmy and Martin are on the Missing Person's list too.

I saw the PM, isn't too long at all. Those are are the types of messages I like honestly. You can make it longer even, no problem. And the free informational sounds interesting, I may need to check that out.

Originally Posted by BubblyShell22

I agree with BT and Jon in that one of the flaws of this show is acting like a character doesn't exist until the plot calls for them. Yeah, Tim's there, but it's like he didn't exist for them since they never mentioned him. I'm sure he'll crop up again when the plot calls for it because that's the way this show rolls.

Hopefully Timothy will be brought up soon. It just seems so wrong to leave him a frozen blob. I hope that Timothy and Baxter get can have better luck soon.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by Warhorse

Didn't see the episode, but those screen caps, yeah, that is a little bit out of place for a kid's show. What were the animators thinking? This is just about as bad when in the OT, April was tied up, and I can't remember what Turtle it was, but when he removed the ropes from her chest, her boobs literally bust out and flop for a second.

It was Mikey, and he was untying her after they found her on the rooftop in the second ep of the pilot "season". It was on top of the Security company building Shredder was using to stage his tech company robberies, and under which he had parked the Technodrome. And Mikey starts right at her chest while he's untying her, too....

Originally Posted by JH24

Shredder mutated Baxter for his failures, then still forced him to make another mutant in the end, and everyone seeming to forget about the huge vat of Mutagen in Baxter's lab.

===

As for Timothy, you make a good point. But April is their/his closest friend and they carry the blame and regret on their shoulders for Kirby's mutation, so it's understandable they want to help April and Kirby as one of the first.

As for Master Splinter, he's family and he's their father, it's natural for them to offer the retro-mutagen to him as well.

Timothy, in the end, is to blame for his own mutation. Donnie feels responsible and sadness about this and definitely sees him as a friend, but with Timothy being frozen his situation perhaps is "less urgent" and he has no awareness of his existence right now. The only point that can be made is that if he was cured now he could return to his parents sooner, he must be lost for months already.


I'm pretty sure that Timothy was the third person on Donnie's list (Or maybe the second as Splinter mentioned he still has his humanity, both Kirby and Timothy have/had lost their humanity) and he may have been cured next if the vial hadn't broke. Only comment I can make about this is that I wished the writers had Donnie acknowledge that Timothy needed to be cured as well, I found it odd he wasn't mentioned even once in an episode ike this.

A vat of it- Donnie could probably make quite a bit of the retro-mutagen from all that. We may YET see him make more, and now that he knows April is immune, he might have more reason to experiment with her DNA. (samples freely given, of course.)

I'm wondering though, Timothy has drunk at least two canisters of that stuff since he mutated, so what effect would that have on the retro-mutagen? Does it matter? And considering how extreme his mutation was, CAN he be cured?

Originally Posted by Jon_Talbain

I am surprised Baxter has any humanity at all, much less his intelligence. It was so dramatic with the slow motion explosion of the first vial of mutagen. Then all of them kept going off as if he was being shot with a machine gun. Also, the title of the episode is painfully true. Almost every mutation we have seen so far has someone watching or being their while the mutation is taking place. But Shredder and Rahzar just left Baxter all alone while he mutated. And after the life Baxter has had, he probably won't be trusting anyone unless it is something drastic to change his mind.

Shredder didn't even try out the mutants Baxter made. How does Shredder know they are failures just because of how they look? They might have really been a threat if given the chance to prove themselves. And apparently Shredder must have thought Baxter had some ability, since he still dragged him back at the end of the episode. And you are right about Splinter. He has been in that form for over a decade. Timothy is just a tragic wanna-be hero and teenager. They really should have helped him out already.

What happened to the Squirrelanoids? And Snakeweed and the others? The turtles haven't mentioned much of anyone lately. Why did Raph not try to steal the retro-mutagen in desperation to turn Slash back into Spike? Why has Don never cared about Spyroach? Don had obviously bonded with the roach before the mutation. Why didn't Mikey turn Ice Cream Kitty back into a normal cat? Nick could have easily given more depth and plots to some of these storylines. And I believe I did get the PM, I will check it now.

Baxter wasn't an especially stellar human being to begin with- he was a whiney, insecure and petty man, and a thief and vengeful jerk, to boot. His "humanity" was pretty thin to begin with. He DOES seem to have lost some of his sanity, but even that was slightly damaged already.

Ace Duck? Seriously??!! If I were Shredder, I'd consider that a failure too. It was stupid and pointless, not to mention of little threat value. A DUCK. Not exactly the most fear-inspiring mutation imaginable.

As for Spike- he is sentient now, like the turtles themselves. Would he even WANT to be un-mutated? I seriously doubt it. Snake doesn't seem to mind his mutation, and neither did Spiderbytes. Pete the Pigeon probably wouldn't want to change back, and neither would Martin, most likely- he actually seemed to be pleased with his change.

The only ones I can see them changing back might be ICK and the Spyroach, but only because the roach wasn't really much more intelligent, and was a threat, and Mikey letting ICK mutate in the first place was a mistake that caused some moral problems. As for de-mutating any of the animals that are now intelligent- that would be taking away their free will to choose, and Splinter would probably point out to the turtles that it would be no better than if THEY were un-mutated themselves. I don't want to see them do that to someone else. Not even Slash or Pete.


Edit: I also love the references to The Fly in this one- especially Baxter's plan to fuse with April like Jeff Goldblume tried to do in that movie. This was a great episode, and Mikey's Tur-fly-tle costume is so funny! He really knows how to annoy Raph, too....

[Ninjinister]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Ace Duck? Seriously??!! If I were Shredder, I'd consider that a failure too. It was stupid and pointless, not to mention of little threat value. A DUCK. Not exactly the most fear-inspiring mutation imaginable.

Says the gal who is named "Duckie."

And plus he knows Taekwondo, apparently. Ever fight a a Taekwondo practitioner?

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Actually, yes, I have. Two of my cousins took lessons, and I sparred with them a few times while they were learning. One of them was actually pretty good at it, too. However, their teacher did not impress me much.

Incidentally, the only duck I'd ever consider a REAL threat is Howard. He knows Quack-Fu!

[victory_angel]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

The only ones I can see them changing back might be ICK and the Spyroach, but only because the roach wasn't really much more intelligent, and was a threat, and Mikey letting ICK mutate in the first place was a mistake that caused some moral problems. As for de-mutating any of the animals that are now intelligent- that would be taking away their free will to choose, and Splinter would probably point out to the turtles that it would be no better than if THEY were un-mutated themselves. I don't want to see them do that to someone else. Not even Slash or Pete.

I think the only ones who should forcibly be turned back to human are the mutants who hold a considerable threat, both to the Turtles and the City. And even then the Turtles should consider the morality of it.

Timothy wasn't picked as a person who should receive the first doses to retromutagen. One because Dr. O'Neil was more urgent. He was mutated by accident and that was a mess they had to clean up before they could do anything else.

As for Splinter. He had raised and trained them for fifteen years. And over those years they have heard him morn the loss of humanity. So having the opportunity to return him to a human felt like it was their opportunity to give him back something he lost.

And yes he was clearly moved by the fact his sons were wanting to make him human after fifteen years.

[Garfield]

this episode was a fun watch. I love Baxter as a fly. This is how you do a update to an older character. He isn't just Baxter the mutant fly because he happened to be a guy mutated into a fly, they seemed to actually take some elements from Fly Baxter from the Fred Wolf toon and added it into this character like his loss in lucidity and his jump as a threat and courage. But at the end of it all he get away from being used and abused by the Shredder.

[Jon_Talbain]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Baxter wasn't an especially stellar human being to begin with- he was a whiney, insecure and petty man, and a thief and vengeful jerk, to boot. His "humanity" was pretty thin to begin with. He DOES seem to have lost some of his sanity, but even that was slightly damaged already.

Ace Duck? Seriously??!! If I were Shredder, I'd consider that a failure too. It was stupid and pointless, not to mention of little threat value. A DUCK. Not exactly the most fear-inspiring mutation imaginable.

As for Spike- he is sentient now, like the turtles themselves. Would he even WANT to be un-mutated? I seriously doubt it. Snake doesn't seem to mind his mutation, and neither did Spiderbytes. Pete the Pigeon probably wouldn't want to change back, and neither would Martin, most likely- he actually seemed to be pleased with his change.

The only ones I can see them changing back might be ICK and the Spyroach, but only because the roach wasn't really much more intelligent, and was a threat, and Mikey letting ICK mutate in the first place was a mistake that caused some moral problems. As for de-mutating any of the animals that are now intelligent- that would be taking away their free will to choose, and Splinter would probably point out to the turtles that it would be no better than if THEY were un-mutated themselves. I don't want to see them do that to someone else. Not even Slash or Pete.


Edit: I also love the references to The Fly in this one- especially Baxter's plan to fuse with April like Jeff Goldblume tried to do in that movie. This was a great episode, and Mikey's Tur-fly-tle costume is so funny! He really knows how to annoy Raph, too....

And his sanity was damaged because of people being jerks towards him. It hasn't shown his childhood, but most likely he never had much of a break or many, if any friends. This is a fictional show, but there are so called whiny people in real life that have snapped on people always making fun of them or never catching a break. It is even a running gag with the characters not even caring to say his name right. If Baxter had gotten just a little respect, he could have been different. But then again, it is all in how the Nick writers want it to be.

Well that could have been the entire plan. The turtles might not have taken a duck seriously either, only to have their neck slashed. And it is a MUTANT Duck, that makes a big difference. We are talking about a show where the main heroes are TURTLES. I would think a duck would do just fine. Besides, Shredder hasn't done that well with his own mutants either. And just like Ninjinister, I was a bit surprised you have duck in your username, and are downing the animal so much.

I understand about Slash and the others being sentient. It may not be fair to try and change them back. That may be a very tough decision. I guess we will see what Nick chooses to do.

[Luckyday]

Originally Posted by Jon_Talbain

And his sanity was damaged because of people being jerks towards him. It hasn't shown his childhood, but most likely he never had much of a break or many, if any friends. This is a fictional show, but there are so called whiny people in real life that have snapped on people always making fun of them or never catching a break. It is even a running gag with the characters not even caring to say his name right. If Baxter had gotten just a little respect, he could have been different. But then again, it is all in how the Nick writers want it to be.

Well that could have been the entire plan. The turtles might not have taken a duck seriously either, only to have their neck slashed. And it is a MUTANT Duck, that makes a big difference. We are talking about a show where the main heroes are TURTLES. I would think a duck would do just fine. Besides, Shredder hasn't done that well with his own mutants either. And just like Ninjinister, I was a bit surprised you have duck in your username, and are downing the animal so much.

I understand about Slash and the others being sentient. It may not be fair to try and change them back. That may be a very tough decision. I guess we will see what Nick chooses to do.

From what I have seen so far, I seriously doubt that this show will have deep conversations about sentient rights.

[Jon_Talbain]

Originally Posted by Luckyday

From what I have seen so far, I seriously doubt that this show will have deep conversations about sentient rights.

Yeah, you are probably right. It is a shame too, because the show could go a lot deeper.

[Guitar_Raph]

Originally Posted by fridaynightdestination

And also, am I the only one who thought the Greg Cipes face part was funny?

You got a fan that thought that too! Greg Cipes in Mikey's body was awesome. Wonder how Mikey would look in Greg's body? Bet he'd be playing the guitar & singing!

Speaking of that, another funny gag was when Casey Jones used his hockey stick playing guitar! Take that Drake Bell!

[victory_angel]

Originally Posted by Jon_Talbain

And his sanity was damaged because of people being jerks towards him.

We do hear a little bit about his life in Baxter's Gambit. One of the things he says is that for a science fair project he made an active volcano with real lava. And was expelled for burning down the gym, and since then he has wanted revenge on the people who have wronged him.

[NoName999]

I know I'm not the only who thought that April was going to become this show's Venus, right? lol

And at least they resolved the plotline of April's Dad? That dragged on far too long.

[blindturtle02]

I hope he doesn't have a relapse due to very little retro-mutagen spilling on him. They could go the way of The Lizard from the 90's Spider-Man animated series. Or maybe not. Nonetheless, I'm worried about Kirby. I'd like to think he'll stay human, but am not too sure.