BUSHIDO

[blue_angel99]

I know samuri's lived by the code of bushido but did real ninjas live by the same code?

[Kazari]

Well I know that Samurais lived by Bushido and that Ninjas were assasins probably trained by almost the same code. Iam not sure though LOL

[Tetsu Deinonychus]

No,
Samurai practice Bushidô (the art of the warrior), and Ninja practice Budô (the art of war), both are distinctly different codes of honor.

Also, Ninja were not so much "assasains" as they were mystics that practiced stealth tactics (among other disiplines) for defensive purposes.

BTW, Hey Heretic! I beat you to the punch! (just joking buddy)

[Kazari]

Ok!! I need to take more classes on early Japanese history and such to learn about this mess!! I just learned Medieval History! Some help that was!! I knw my friend Blue is a true Leo fan and she would lecture me on Bushido.

[blue_angel99]

Budo huh? I got to look that up. Thanks TetsuDeinonychus

[heretic888]

I know samuri's lived by the code of bushido but did real ninjas live by the same code?

No, neither did. A few points:

1) Bushido as we know it was an invention of the late Edo Period, probably codified sometime in the 1700's (by a Christian samurai no less). It was not something that the samurai class followed throughout most of their history (although there were similar principles that formed the basis of Bushido).

2) Ninja did not follow Bushido, they had their own outlook on life they referred to as Ninpo. Ninpo is far more similar to philosophical Taoism (in the vien of Lao Tzu and Sun Tzu), with strong influences from Tantic Buddhism (Mikkyo) --- in contrast to the more Confucian attitudes of Bushido.

3) Any dilineation between the "ninja" and the "samurai" is, at best, shady. The people commonly recognized as "ninja" (the Iga-shu and Koga-shu, mostly) were almost exclusively of samurai status (jizamurai actually) and owned their own land.

Well I know that Samurais lived by Bushido and that Ninjas were assasins probably trained by almost the same code.

Actually, there is very, very little historical evidence to support the notion of "ninja assassins". Although I have no doubt they engaged in assassinations every now and then, it was clearly not their primary focus or goal.

No, Samurai practice Bushidô (the art of the warrior), and Ninja practice Budô (the art of war), both are distinctly different codes of honor.

Well, Budo per se was an invention of the later Edo and Meiji periods. It was an attempt to "civilize" the traditional warrior arts (bugei) of feudal Japan. The most common exemplars of Budo are Jigoro Kano's Judo and Morihei Ueshiba's Aikido. Ninpo doesn't easily fall into either bugei or budo --- its sort of both, and neither.

Also, Ninja were not so much "assasains" as they were mystics that practiced stealth tactics (among other disiplines) for defensive purposes.

I don't know if its entirely accurate to classify the ninja as a whole as "mystics", but it is true that the primary motivation for their training and services was to protect and ensure the stability of their communities.

Laterz.

[blue_angel99]

wow.....that is some heavy info. Thanks

[Kameko]

Heh, Heretic's knowledge on all things martial arts never ceases to amaze me. Although I have to admit to the occasional headache.

[heretic888]

Heh.

[Kazari]

My friend Blue knows too much too! She likes always lectures me on Bushido and Budo though most of the time I tone her out!! LOL Just kidding Blue if you read this! *hides* She's such a Leo when it comes to her and her martial arts lecturing.

[Ronin_of_Kirai]

Thank God for herectic, if we didnt have him...We..would..need to look up stuff by ourself..And thats a scray thought

[Usagi'sChick]

Thanks for the great info!

question:
weren't Ninja poor farmers/commoners that got sick of officials abusing their power, and in time, they practiced fighting techniques in secret in the fields. And knowing their land so well, they ambushed these officials and won. They continued their training with their simple farming tools and the art evolved into ninjitsu?
i
Isnt Ninpo the "higher order of Ninjitsu, based on 'nin', or patience, perserverance or stealth?" ~ which stresses training with the internal development of character.

[PizzaPower]

I like Sameria's better then ninja's!!! just like "The Last Samaria" the ninja's attack the samiria!!

[Usagi'sChick]

Yeah, from what I understand Samurai served only one master, to the death, for good or bad, even if the Samurai found his lord to be corrupt.
If he became masterless, he became a Ronin, (like Usagi Yojimbo), and he would be hired help if he chooses.

The Samurai and Ninjas battled eachother for years. Usually both were employed by a Lord. The lord would hire Ninja for info gathering and once and awhile for assisnations, (only in a situation where it would be degrading or dishonorable for a Samurai to do so.).

The Samurai disliked Ninjas because in their eyes they had no honor, they would use tricks, ambush, run away if necessary. Samurai battles more fairly. But you have to remember they are allowed to train and hold a higher status in society. The Ninjas were not at first (if ever) and were lower class and learned their arts in secret. They usually did not form such a strong honor-bound to a lord like a samurai, so they could never be trusted 100%.

I'm researching into Ninjas, its really interesting. They were masters of hypnosis, stealth, physical endurance. They were very spiritual and tried to be at one with nature. They could tell time by looking at a cat's eyes, remain motionless all day, even control their breathing and pulse to make themselves appear dead.
Without going too much into it they understood the "collective subconscious" and aquired information from past knowledge gained. Anyone actually can access this information, but the knowledge and sensitivity to do so is rare. This is going into psychology, and i'm not going into it any farther.

[heretic888]

weren't Ninja poor farmers/commoners that got sick of officials abusing their power, and in time, they practiced fighting techniques in secret in the fields. And knowing their land so well, they ambushed these officials and won. They continued their training with their simple farming tools and the art evolved into ninjitsu?

No.

"Ninja" groups like the Iga-shu and Koga-shu were not farmers/commoners. They were principally jizamurai, a lower rank of the samurai class, and owned their own land as well as carried their own weapons. During the Edo Period, their prestige and status actually improved as many worked for the Tokugawa Shogunate directly.

The ninja groups of Iga and Koga were never the target of any direct invasion, until the time of Oda Nobunaga in the 1580's. The Ashikaga Shogun had invaded Koga in the 1480's, but this was to destroy the Rokkaku clan (whom the ninja had aided anyway). The truth is that the Iga and Koga groups were pretty much left to themselves for most of their history.

Isnt Ninpo the "higher order of Ninjitsu, based on 'nin', or patience, perserverance or stealth?" ~ which stresses training with the internal development of character.

Depends on who you ask. I personally think that Ninpo and Ninjutsu don't have any direct relationship per se, and refer to completely different things. Ninjutsu being the arts and skills associated with covert warfare and intelligence gathering, and Ninpo being the thinking, philosophy, and way of handling situations that underlines ALL the ninja's studies (i.e., its not just limited to Ninjutsu).

I like Sameria's better then ninja's!!! just like "The Last Samaria" the ninja's attack the samiria!!

*groans* I'll say it again. Ninja. Were. Samurai.

Yeah, from what I understand Samurai served only one master, to the death, for good or bad, even if the Samurai found his lord to be corrupt.

This is more of a romantic myth than anything else. A samurai was merely a member of social class. He may or may not serve any particular master, and a good number of them were ronin. Loyalty was an important part of the samurai culture, but it wasn't as unquestioning or unyielding as many would have you believe.

If he became masterless, he became a Ronin, (like Usagi Yojimbo), and he would be hired help if he chooses.

Not all ronin were "hired help". Some were actively adopted into another clan.

The Samurai and Ninjas battled eachother for years.

Uhhhh.... no.

Usually both were employed by a Lord.

Actually, the shinobi groups almost exclusively sold their skills on a case-by-case fashion, mercenary style. If they were employed by a "lord" outside of their clan or region, it would have been a temporary arrangement (although this changed somewhat with the Edo Period).

There were exceptions, of course.

The lord would hire Ninja for info gathering and once and awhile for assisnations

Actually, there is almost no proof of very many (if any) "ninja assassinations". This seems to be a later accretation of popular culture.

And, during the Sengoku Jidai, the ninja's primary forte was commando warfare and siege warfare. A strong emphasis on espionage didn't come until the Edo Period. For the most part, anyway.

(only in a situation where it would be degrading or dishonorable for a Samurai to do so.).

This is another myth. Betrayals, assassinations, and spying were quite common during the Sengoku Jidai. They were not the exclusive province of the ninja.

The Samurai disliked Ninjas because in their eyes they had no honor, they would use tricks, ambush, run away if necessary.

So did most other koryu. And the "samurai" did not dislike the "ninja".

I'm researching into Ninjas, its really interesting. They were masters of hypnosis, stealth, physical endurance. They were very spiritual and tried to be at one with nature. They could tell time by looking at a cat's eyes, remain motionless all day, even control their breathing and pulse to make themselves appear dead.
Without going too much into it they understood the "collective subconscious" and aquired information from past knowledge gained. Anyone actually can access this information, but the knowledge and sensitivity to do so is rare. This is going into psychology, and i'm not going into it any farther.

No offense, but your "research" is very limited. It all sounds like it came from a single book (which is littered with inaccurate information). "Mind of the Ninja: Exploring the Inner Power", right??

[Kameko]

Originally Posted by Heretic

"Mind of the Ninja: Exploring the Inner Power", right??

I'm sorry, that just struck me as funny.

Anyway, yeah, watching The Last Samurai with my family was interesting. I do tend to know more about Japanese culture then they do, but trying to explain the difference between Ninja and 'regular' Samurai (Mom: "Why didn't the Samurai just fight the way the Ninjas did?") was about enough to make me crazy. Thanks for all the info, Heretic.

[Usagi'sChick]

Well for sources:

"Ninja Mind Control" & "Secrets of the Ninja" -Ashida Kim

"Secrets of the Samurai: martial arts of feudal Japan" - Oscar Ratti/ Adele Westbrook

A few web sources, one off hand is: http://search.netscape.com/ns/boomfr...pids%2F1028%2F

And I saw a martial art 2 hr documentary on the discovery channel, with a pretty good section dedicated to ninjitsu. ~ however this is where I learned the origin of Ninjitsu. (the possible farmer origin), so I was merely asking if that was true. I dont take what I learn on the documentary for solid fact. Since apart from that I havent come across any origin explinations.


>Ninpo and Ninjitsu...I've read in many sources that one is a higher, spiritual extension of Ninjitsu. Agreed: practicing one does not make you a student of the other.

I havent researched much at all about the Samurai, but I do know that not all Samurai dedicate their lives to a lord.

>I rather not get into a debate about anything, I was merely asking a few questions, since my knowledge is new info, and I have a lot of studying to do. I would appreciate a couple of book recommendations if you would be so kind as to share your sources.

[heretic888]

Thanks for all the info, Heretic.

No problem.

Well for sources:

"Ninja Mind Control" & "Secrets of the Ninja" -Ashida Kim

"Secrets of the Samurai: martial arts of feudal Japan" - Oscar Ratti/ Adele Westbrook

Ugh. I mean no offense by this, but both are rather poor sources for anything regarding the historical ninja.

"Secrets of the Samurai" is, at best, a secondary-source account of ninjutsu. It basically gives a "public" image of the ninja, and does not draw on anything resembling a primary source derived from actual ninjutsu traditions themselves (much like asking a colonial American what Native American traditions are like). Still, I suppose it is useful in regards to a historical "outsider's" view of Ninpo.

Ashida Kim, on the other hand, is a blatant fraud and liar. He has no connection to any historical ninjutsu ryuha and is commonly recognized as one of the great laughing stocks of the martial arts world.

A few web sources, one off hand is: http://search.netscape.com/ns/boomfr...pids%2F1028%2F

Also far from the best source in the world. Most of the information found therein is copy-and-pasted from other sources, mostly books from Hayes and Hatsumi. Its really more of a "ninja fanboy" site than anything else.

And I saw a martial art 2 hr documentary on the discovery channel, with a pretty good section dedicated to ninjitsu. ~ however this is where I learned the origin of Ninjitsu. (the possible farmer origin), so I was merely asking if that was true. I dont take what I learn on the documentary for solid fact. Since apart from that I havent come across any origin explinations

*nods* Yes, and I've seen those very same documentaries myself. I must say that they are left me less than enthusiastic, and were littered with inaccuracies. Please don't take any of this as a personal attack, I am merely critiquing the sources you mention.

The truth is that no one really knows the "true origins" of the ninja and ninjutsu. We honestly don't know anything much about them prior to the mid-1400's (when they first entered the "historical stage" in any real presence). Anything before that time is just speculation and conjecture.

An excellent source regarding ninja history is Don Roley's article on the Koga ryu: http://www.bujinkanwakodojo.com/bwd_...u_history.html

>Ninpo and Ninjitsu...I've read in many sources that one is a higher, spiritual extension of Ninjitsu. Agreed: practicing one does not make you a student of the other.

Yes, that was the line Stephen Hayes constantly stated in the 1980's. I have heard rather differing accounts by others who have had more recent contact with Japan.

My personal impression is that ninjutsu and ninpo don't have any direct relationship (i.e., one is not necessarily the "extension" of the other). Ninjutsu are martial art techniques involving stealth, spying, and covert warfare. Ninpo is a way of seeing things and looking at the world that can underly any number of practices, from ninjutsu to taijutsu to dieting to meditation.

>I rather not get into a debate about anything, I was merely asking a few questions, since my knowledge is new info, and I have a lot of studying to do. I would appreciate a couple of book recommendations if you would be so kind as to share your sources.

Fair enough. I would recommend ANY book by Masaaki Hatsumi. The favorite in my own collection is "Essence of Ninjutsu: The Nine Traditions". I plan on purchasing his newer books, "Ninpo: Wisdom for Life" and "Way of the Ninja" very soon.

Laterz.

[JohnnyPsycho]

I'm by no means a historian or an expert of martial arts traditions, but I just wanted to add a couple things...

From what I've been told of the traditions of Karate, this artform did start off as a self-defense method for the unarmed, and was passed onto the common citizenry... many of the forms and attacks used in the precursors of Karate were developed to attack the weakpoints in an attacker's armor and to disarm... While I'm not entirely sure of how old the tradition of Karate is, I do know that in several communities, such as in the Okinawa area, the Karate tradition was taught to just about everybody to ensure that citizens could fight back invaders to some degree...

The weapons that are often popularly depicted as "ninja weapons", such as the sai, were originally created as make-shift weapons by poor farmers who would have to defend themselves against brigands and bandits who would try to loot and pillage their villages during the more turbulent periods of feudal Japan's history... It's unknown how a weapon like the sai then made it into the hands of the ninja, since from what little I do know of feudal Japan's history there was very little "social climbing". It's not very likely that any ninja clans were founded by poor farmers, it's probably more likely that the particular weapons themselves proved to be so useful that smart ninjas decided to adopt them for their own.

Oh, and FYI (just for fun), the Assassins, or hashishim, are a historical Islamic secret society, the most historically significant portion of their existance under the leadership of Hasan-i-Sabah. The Assassins had several interactions during the Crusades with the Pope's private army, the Knights Templar; as a result, it is believed that the Templars became more of an occult secret society. While both the Assassins and the Templars were destroyed as heretical orders, it is believed that Templar survivors took the same secrets they had taken from the East into an "occult underground", from which emerged the secret order of the Masons, among others. The Assassins survivors themselves became the Nizari Ismailis, which exist today.

one question, though, because again I don't know everything:

What is the real difference (if any) between the term "shinobi" and "ninja"?

[Lord Nightwalker]

God I love topics like these. Heretic, You the man, man! ..Now to add a bit, But only a bit...Budo...Budo is a Japanese term. It means "martial way" and refers to those martial disciplines whose ultimate goal is spiritual, ethical and/or moral self-improvement. The characters "bu" and "do" in "budo" are rich in meaning and have many secondary interpretations.

Bu is a Japanese word meaning "military" or "related to the military," a character often compounded into others, such as "bugei," "bujitsu" and "bushi." The character for "bu" is a composite of two others. The bottom inside left character is "foot" suggesting advancing on foot, and the right upper larger character is a prototype (perhaps derived from an elaboration of the character for stake) of a halberd (a spear attached to the end of a pole) implying to "cut, menace, pierce or kill." When combined, they can be interpreted as advancing on foot with a weapon, thus referring to a warrior, or by extension, things military. There is also an important secondary interpretation. The first character meaning "foot" has also come to mean stop, based on the idea of planting the foot. Taken in conjunction with the second character of "halberd," "bu" can be thus interpreted as a means to stop a weapon (conflict), or to gain peace. This is consistent with the idea of practicing budo to achieve both inner and outer peace.

Do is the Japanese pronunciation of the Chinese term "Tao" (for Taoism), meaning the way to suppress violence and return to the way of the universe. It is a composite of two characters integrated into one, the first signifying "movement" and the second "head" or "chief." Combined, the characters have the meaning of the chief means of direct movement, or the main road, a term figuratively used to mean the "way," as to enlightenment. Implied also are Taoist concepts of non-resistance, goal-lessness, and loss of ego (not surprisingly shared by Zen since the formation of Zen in China was derived from Indian meditative Buddhism which was strongly influenced by Taoism). But while Chinese Taoism developed strong otherworldly or religious connotations, the Japanese had a more practical, less abstract interpretation, one more focused on the pragmatic dimension of human relationships. This led to the concept of the way or road toward self-development. This could lead to a spiritual awakening - one of intuitive perception, insight and enlightenment (as in Zen).

A similar but not fully analogous term to "Budo" in Chinese is "Wu Shu," whose first character "wu" is the same as "bu" in "budo." "Shu," however, is "art," thus the term more closely parallels the Japanese term "Bujitsu," the war arts of the professional Samurai. Other Chinese terms referring to Chinese martial arts include Kung Fu, Ch'uan fa, Gwo Chi, Gwo Sho and Chung Ku Ch'uan.

Bushido..A generalized code which can be foud in complex and simplified versions, Some Ninja did follow this code, because it's what they did for most of their lives before becoming Ninja
The mountain "clans" of ninja were composed of all walks of life, and varying in beliefs, to a degree.
Ninjutsu was developed in the Iga and Koga regions of Japan. It is believed that the art is a result of the training methods of the Shugenja and Yamabushi mountain ascetics. most ninjutsu ryu were not comprised of assassins. Some were even of samurai status, or had at one time held such office. The majority of the ninjutsu clans were founded by warriors who had the misfortune of being on the losing side of a war and chose to live by taking their families into the mountains, rather that facing ritualistic suicide as the samurai code would demand. Other ryu were founded by simple peasants and farmers who were basically considered less than human by the military government. Many traditional Japanese Bujutsu Ryu contained a ninjutsu curriculum.Their only chance of survival was to flee to outlying regions and develop skills that would not only help them survive the elements, but the aggression of the samurai as well. It would be reasonable to view the ancient ninja as guerrilla warfare specialist, experts in all aspects of combat and strategy, intelligence gathering and networking, and seekers of spiritual enlightenment and truth.In ancient times, membership in a ninjutsu ryu was restricted to those who were born into the ninja families Every day was spent ensuring the families' survival: farming, martial training, outdoorsmanship, etc.
Ninja clans were despised by samurai and peasant alike. Legend and myth surrounded them and their tradition. They were feared, and many common folk believed them to be nothing more than fairy tale. More than one samurai general set about to rid Japan of ninjutsu clans, most notably Oda Nobunaga.
Daisuke Togakure was a samurai in the mid 1100's. He was on the losing side of a battle and escaped to the mountain region of Iga. It was here that he is credited for founding Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu.
Ninja Family tree.......
1. Daisuke Togakure 18. Heizaemon Kataoka
2. Shima Kosanta Minamoto No Kanesada 19. Ugenta Mori
3. Goro Togakure 20. Gobai Toda
4. Kosanta Togakure 21. Seiun Kobe
5. Kisanta Koga 22. Kobei Momochi
6. Tomoharu Kaneko 23. Tenzen Tobari
7. Ryuho Togakure 24. Seiryu Nobutsuna Toda
8. Gakuun Togakure 25. Fudo Nobuchika Toda
9. Koseki Kido 26. Kangoro Nobuyasu Toda
10. Tenryu Iga 27. Eisaburo Nobumasa Toda
11. Rihei Ueno 28. Shinbei Masachika Toda
12. Senri Ueno 29. Shingoro Masayoshi Toda
13. Manjiro Ueno 30. Daigoro Chikahide Toda
14. Saburo Iizuka 31. Daisaburo Chikashige Toda
15. Goro Sawada 32. Shinryuken Masamitsu Toda
16. Ippei Ozaru 33. Toshitsugu Takamatsu
17. Hachiro Kimata 34. Masaaki Hatsumi

Budo Taijutsu is comprised of nine schools, only three of which are actually ninjutsu ryu. The nine schools are:
Togakure Ryu Ninpo Taijutsu (Hidden Door School)
Gyokko Ryu Kosshijutsu (Jewel Tiger School)
Kukishinden Ryu Happo Hikenjutsu (Nine Demon Gods School)
Koto Ryu Koppojutsu (Tiger Knocking Down School)
Shindenfudo Ryu Dakentaijutsu (Immovable Heart School)
Takagi yoshin Ryu Jutaijutsu (High Tree, Raised Heart School)
Gikan Ryu Koppojutsu (Truth, Loyalty and Justice School)
Gyokushin Ryu Kosshijutsu/Ninjutsu (Jeweled Heart School)
Kumogakure Ryu Ninpo (Hiding in the Clouds School)
OR.....
Shinobi-kai
Genbukan, Bukinjan
Genbukan
Togakure ryu, Kumogakure ryu, Kukishin ryu, Gyokko ryu, Koto ryu,Gyokushin ryu
Hontai Takagi Yoshin ryu, Kukishin ryu,. Asayama Ichiden ryu Tatara Shinden ryu , Bokuden ryu,
Yagyu Shingan ryu, Tenshin ryu, Itten Chukai ryu, Araki Shin ryu
Bujinkan
Togakure Ryu, Gyokko Ryu , Kukishinden Ryu , Shinden Fudo Ryu,
Gyokushin Ryu, Koto Ryu, Takagi yoshin Ryu
Gikan Ryu, Kumogakure Ryu
Iga Ryu
Momochi Ryu
Koga Ryu
You can find a plathora of books on Ninjitsu, Stephen Hayes or otherwise, there are several good reads out there. One, in particular, compares Jeet Kune Do to Ninjitsu..and then blends them together. I've been looking for that one to add to my library. lol. Later people! Have a good one!