A big WTF moment I just had

[BigApple3AM]

So I haven't been keeping up on the new show, but I did catch a new episode with "raptar" the archangel rip off and his evil arch nemesis fighting each other. Seemed a lot like Prof. X vs. Magneto with the whole humans are insects thing.

So Peter Laird thought Bebop and Rocksteady were hokey, and he let these guys in? This show has gotten goofier than the old one, mostly because it still takes itself seriously even when triceratons are "invading" earth or they're fighting blue elves from a different planet that just happen to land right where the turtles are and not anywhere else in the ENTIRE world.

I really liked the effects, and the writing is still clever and fun, but I still don't get Laird's hatred for the old show. All they need to do is approach it like they have everything else in the new show and they'll fit right in, Krang too.

Personally the new show isn't for me, too scifi and not enough ninja. Example: When's the last time we saw a foot soldier?
I would definitely have handeled the new show differently, but it's not like I have a choice, so I try to enjoy what I can. Still this is going to bug me to no end that they won't give old school characters a chance.

And before anyone says "but they dressed Gen up the same as Rocksteady in an episode" I'm going to say I don't care. It's not the same.

Comments?

[Spitfire]

It's a joke for us old fans. No kid would get that unless he watched the old toon DVDs. And it's a cartoon if things didn't happen that way where would the story be? In the gutter.

There are no foot soliders because Karai doesn't want to use them. They failed, why use them? She hasn't made an attack yet either aside from the metal game she played with the TMNT. He hates the old show because their Ninjas but they run around the city in the daylight. This is to sci-fi? The old show had Krang with a new invention EVERY episode and then Don somehow figured out what it did and fixed it everytime. An Alien brain and a human scientist....which is moee Sci-fi?

Need I begin on how annoying it was to have Shredder and Krang as the bad guys in pratically every episode. I was so glad to see Shredder finished in the new series.

[BigApple3AM]

Originally Posted by Spitfire666xXxXx

An Alien brain and a human scientist....which is moee Sci-fi?

Shredder and baxter from the new show both describe that as well. Donny comes up with the same saving graces like he did in the old show.

What I'm trying to say is that the new show is just as crazy as the old one, you're trying to argue which is better, I'm not. I'm simply saying that Rocksteady and Bebop could be used in the new one and still fit in fine.

[Spitfire]

Don comes up with solutions that make sense. When he comes upon alien tech he has to figure it out before he can use it. Like flying the space ship and operating alien blasters. The old show no matter what it was they figured it out. It was a comdey, and the new show isn't. There is no need for Bebop and Rocksteady because they were comic relief. They would screw up Shredder's plans so he would fail and the TMNT would win. That's no longer needed. And I can't find a way for them to fit. Unless in Usagi's world but that's about it. No one is making mutants in the new seires. Bishop is making robots and cyborgs.

[Fledermaus]

Ectocooler, I believe you entirely miss the point on good entertainment. Subject matter MATTERS NOT. Look at Spidey, King Kong, Narnia, etc. What matters is HOW the story is told, HOW the subject matter is dealt with. A number of us feel the old toon was simply another ballpark, as it was aimed towards a younger audience and thus could never get really serious about anything.

The problem, as Brad Bird himself has angrily pointed out, is that the storytellers don't treat concepts with enough respect. Instead of letting you get INto the story, get CONCERNED about the characters, the creators get hung up on the absurdity of the situation, or stop far too often for unnecessary jokes, needless comic relief -- further distancing the viewer from the world of the characters, to the point that eventually it is very hard to care. (a major reason, in my bold opinion, why most recent Disney films just aren't up to par with the older films.)

The new toon, I believe, respects its characters and the stories that are being told more than the old toon, but that's just my observation.

Depending on what you want to get out of entertainment, such things will matter to you.

Also, why don't you start keeping up with the new show? That would make your opinions better-grounded.

[BigApple3AM]

Lots of night owls tonight, my sleeping schedule is all f'd up thanks to no school. I'll be up at 12:30 tomorrow.

I don't have to watch all the episodes to know what's going on, besides I've already seen all of season 1 and most of season 2. I'm not arguing which show is better, you guys seemed to have turned it into that.

Just to clear this up spitfire, in an episode I just watched Donny rigged an implosion of a nuclear power plant to go into explosion by switching two cables in a matter of seconds. The new show is just as crazy and unexplainable as the old one.

Originally Posted by Fledermaus

Ectocooler, I believe you entirely miss the point on good entertainment.

Fledermaus, I believe your entire theory is flawed . Not to be a jerk, but subject content DOES matter, completely. Of course it helps to have a nice approach to it by people who care, but even your examples point to what I'm saying. Narnia: The lion the witch and the wardrobe (whew) has and always will be about Christianity. The new movie had the same content as the book, with the religious ties. Sure the new movie had all the flashy effects and well done cinematography, handeled by people who truly do love the books, but it will always be the books that people love most.... for their content. The religious content grounds the book in reality, which is why it was so successful.

Another example would be food fighters. An old toy line that had hamburgers and hot dogs waging war. I've tried, but not matter how well you and serious and dark you make it, it will always be food fighters, a poorly created idea. No spin can make it a masterpiece.

Or maybe nascar or golf. Lots of people find that entertaining, but to me watching golf is like watching grass grow (literally).

Scarface and Godfather were both handeled by people who loved the crime/mafia genre. But if they darkened scarface, made it more serious, then it becomes something entirely different, Godfather.

Telling a story is important, and how it is done can sometimes be entertaining. But when you walk away you'll know when you've got gold, or **** painted gold.

Edit: Don't get me wrong, just because I don't watch the new show doesn't mean I don't like it. I'm simply stating that Bebop and Rocksteady can work in the new show and there's no reason to exclude them. Of course this doesn't mean they have to be comedic relief, the creators would "handle them with care" like the rest of the new show.

And I'm sure no one read this "essay" I just wrote, so from now on lets keep it on topic about Bebop and Rocksteady. What would their personalities be like. How could they be incorporated into the show without making it seem too crazy, etc...

[BigApple3AM]

And because I don't think anyone will read my above "essay" post I'm making a new one.

The old cartoon turtles aren't the same as the new ones correct? Well why would it be any different with Bebop, Rocksteady, and Krang. Here's an idea: Krang is a renegade utrom who decides to experiment on test subject animals with mutagen. The result is Bebop and Rocksteady who are fiercely loyal to their utrom father. That's something I came up with in like 5 minutes, so I'm sure the cartoon guys can do better as it's their job and they're getting paid.

If the current series can have mer-people, bird-people, etc... why not Bebop and Rocksteady, and Krang, who is basically an utrom anyway.

[Spitfire]

Well is Bebeop and Rocksteady were to be introduced I would like them to be side characters that work togther and with no one else*Maybe from Usagi's dimension*. Or mutants created by Bishop who some how found out a way to make the mutigen the Uthrom's have. I'd like them both to love guns and explosions but I'd want Bebop to be more the brains and Rocksteady the brawn. I wouldn't want them to show up often but when they did they left their mark. I would hope they had purpose and didn't just rob stores for nothing. I can't think of any stories off hand but that's how I'd see them sorta fitting into the new show.

[Fledermaus]

Not that it couldn't POSSIBLY work, but...

Why not just keep Bebop and Rocksteady, who were not from the mirage comics, who were not MAJORLY helpful, like different colored armbands... why can't they stay in the universe they were made and tailored for? Why does the new show need them? Why can't the new show have its own, new characters, or characters inspired or taken straight from the comics?

EDIT: sorry, I meant HEADBANDS. and also, they can always come up with their own mutated man/beasts and/or anthropomorphs. If Bebop and Rocksteady did make an appearance, they probabably would have to be changed to fit the NT tone. And I mean drastically.

[Leonardo Mystic]

Originally Posted by Fledermaus

Not that it couldn't POSSIBLY work, but...

Why not just keep Bebop and Rocksteady, who were not from the mirage comics, who were not MAJORLY helpful, like different colored armbands... why can't they stay in the universe they were made and tailored for? Why does the new show need them? Why can't the new show have its own, new characters, or characters inspired or taken straight from the comics?

Amen to that, Fledermaus. Those two do not belong in the new toon universe, which is based on the comic. The two cartoons are entirely separate worlds, and should remain as such.

[Masked Ninja]

OK, so if your question is only about Bebop and Rocksteady... remember that a different company owns the rights to the old toon. What was it... Fred Wolf or summat like that? So really, all they can do is make spoofs, as they have. Remember also that they're pulling more stories and characers from the comics, the source material. AND add to that that doing the exact same show 20 years later would be stupid. So... I'm satisfied.

Sometimes the new toon can be a bit hokey. But it's hokey in a more believeable way than the old toon. Plus the Turtles don't look like inflatable toys.

Of course, I love the old toon... but it's a comedy, while this is more action-oriented. They'd lose their under-18 fanbase instantly if they didn't keep coming up with new threats for the Turtles... some kids are already bored. Gasp - actual character development instead of 100% nonstop explosions and whatnot

I guess you have to remember that the whole concept is hokey. Ninja turtles. Right. So you accept that the old show is funny hokey, while this is action hokey.

Um, the end.

[Allo]

Firstly, great argument made by Ectocooler in the first place - too much sci-fi and not enough ninja. As I've mentioned numerous times before, the show is NOT called Teenage Mutant Sci-Fi Turtles. Yes, I've heard everyone say, it's sci-fi mixed with ninja, but the fact of the matter is that with each passing season, the focus is shifting further and further away from the turtles' true talents - their martial arts abilities. Let's face it, the show is supposed to be about 4 individuals overcoming their adversities through their training in martial arts. It's about their ability to use this knowledge to fight (or not to fight) their enemies to protect the weak, to focus their minds to enrich their spirits and become more than simple living being, and most of all, to learn discipline to shape their very personality. That's what I watch the show for.

Yes, you could argue that the very idea of the ninja turtles is outrageous and far-fetched, and as such they should be thrown into equally outrageous and far-fetched situations, including intergalactic/time travel, alien species and virtual reality devices. However, when you really strip it down and take the ninja turtles for what they are, you'll realise that they are simply 4 individuals learning martial arts from a master, despite their appearance. Yes, their very conception may be far-fetched, but everything else about them is completely normal, to which most of us could identify some aspect of the TMNT's lives with our own. As a result, why should they be thrown into such extreme circumstances? Don't get me wrong, I don't hate the sci-fi side of it, but can't the writers still direct the focus towards what the ninja turtles do best?

Ectocooler was also correct about the issue of "subject matter". I must say that I strongly disagree with the argument that subject matter is not important. The reason we watch movies, read books, listen to stories, is to find out what happened. Regardless of how it is told, if people aren't interested in what happens (i.e. the content), you will not be able to get their attention. If subject matter was of no concern, why would we have different genres in terms of content in the media? People have favourite genres for a reason - the CONTENT related to the genre. The ninja turtles would be broadly classified as martial arts - and that would be whole reason most, if not all of us, are watching it!! That's why you'll notice that when the writers take it into new directions that serve only to pull the series further away from it's original genre, people get annoyed and start to complain. At the very least, people become very hesitant and concerned, despite their faith that the writers have been excellent story-tellers thus far. Bottom line - content matters!!

Regarding the old school characters, I would have to agree with Masked Ninja (I seem to agree with everything you've said so far, for some odd reason!). You don't need the old school charaters - yes, it's true that we've all become very attached to them having followed the entire old cartoon series, but this is a completely different story (literally). It has been rehashed to give the turtles a new look and a new feel, and as such they've done away with the characters that do not facilitate in doing so. For me, it's nice to see the ninja turtles set in a new locale and fighting new foes. The focus really is supposed to be on the ninja turtles themselves anyways, not their enemies.

The only way people would be satisfied would be to keep everything the same, in which case you might as well just watch the old series. Why bother even remake it?

[VaughnMichael]

I don't really think we need any characters from the old show in general but I do sort of agree with ecto cooler in a way.....
We have had mutants on this show.....the underground mutants,The Guy Bishop mutated, I'm sure there are more....
BUT! they have no personality and to me that is what is lacking from the characters...I will give the old show this they all had there own minds and lives and acted differnt....on this new show they just all seem so much alike that they honestly bore me.....
I'm not saying bring bebop or rocksteady back...or mondo gecko or anything like that....
but yea I like Bishop he's suposed to be doing all this experimental mutations on people well why don't they start showing more of it....In draggons blood baxter even mentions a certan special subject he wanted to take care of...I wonder what he was talking about...I hope we get to see it....
thats all I really think about it allot of personality is missing from the show I personally always loved the tmnt because the characters where so visually wonderfull but maybe thats cause I'm an 80's kid lol
-Putrescent

[iris]

I like Bebop and Rocksteady the way they are, in my memory, and don't want them corrupted with new show edge. Seriously. Don't muck with them. And if the Laird really despises them, why would you want him of all people to be in control of their fates? Besides, Mask is probably correct that it's legal rights issue as much as anything else. I appreciated the "Samurai Tourists" homage.

I have a feeling we will be seeing more mutants. They have a way of multiplying in stories, and as Putrescent pointed out Bishop has been generously helping that along.

Originally Posted by Allo

Let's face it, the show is supposed to be about 4 individuals overcoming their adversities through their training in martial arts.

I feel that would be a rather limiting premise. I can understand wanting to see more martial arts, but I don't buy the idea that 'Ninja Turtles' is about martial arts, as counterintuitive as that may sound.

These are 4... make that 5 or more... individuals whose major source of adversity is their own nature. The martial arts aspect is a very complex, dynamic prop for a story of personal stuggles and triumphs. Now, it's a device that I love, but if that were all there was to it, I'd get bored fast.

Originally Posted by Allo

The ninja turtles would be broadly classified as martial arts - and that would be whole reason most, if not all of us, are watching it!!

I don't mean to be so contrary, since I agreed with most everything else you said... but if you want to generalize THAT much, Ninja Turtles can also be broadly classified as science fiction. Truthfully, the classification I hear most often is "cartoon." If I were to get serious about it, I'd say it's an illustrated fantasy with equally heavy martial arts and science fiction elements. Sometimes I wish we hadn't gotten an origin story that was so infuratingly science fictitious. I'd rather have had them jump out of Oroku Saki's head like Athena or something.

Originally Posted by Fledermaus

The problem, as Brad Bird himself has angrily pointed out, is that the storytellers don't treat concepts with enough respect. Instead of letting you get INto the story, get CONCERNED about the characters, the creators get hung up on the absurdity of the situation, or stop far too often for unnecessary jokes, needless comic relief -- further distancing the viewer from the world of the characters, to the point that eventually it is very hard to care.

Who is Brad Bird?

The old show did consistently point out that it was "only a cartoon," but that was more in line with the humor of that show. The 'reality checks' may have been an answer to the overblown outcry against the cartoon violence. However, they were also used to gloss over the fact that there were gaping plot holes because there was simply no time to fill them.

I admit I would still think it was hilarious if, every so often, Raphael would turn to the camera and deliver a sarcastic line in full Raph style... but things like that just don't fit the new show. :/

[BigApple3AM]

First, the new series is only loosely based on the comics.

Second, why do I feel the need to have updated Bebop and Rocksteady? The same reason you guys feel the need to have updated Leonardo, Donatello, Michelangelo, Raphael, Shredder, Splinter, April, Casey, etc... To go with your same argument which is why not keep them where they were in the old cartoon 20 years ago. Well why not keep most of the storyline in the comics of 25 years ago. Why do people like to see Batman and Joker updated every 10 years? When you grow attached to a character you don't want to see them die, never to be used again.

The above poster is probably right though, Laird would mess them up. Still I don't get it, he likes his "metalhead" character (not the cool robot, the dork with metal hair) but Bebop and Rocksteady are too out there.
Perhaps it is legal issues, but I doubt it. MWS is long gone now, if anything they're owned by Artisan now. Still I remember Laird saying the back of the vol 4 comics in a reply to a letter similar to my post that he just doesn't like them, so I doubt it's about legal issues, he just hates them.

Which is sort of my post. I dont' expect them to go out and make bebop and rocksteady now just becuase I want them to. I just want an answer as to why Laird hates them so much, when he ok's dorky character rip offs like Silver Sentry. B&R had way more heart than any of those Justice League rip offs.

[Spitfire]

A show with a Sc-fi subject matter being to Sci-Fi...that baffles me. Star Wars is too Sci-fi! I mean come on their whole story is Sci-fi how can you say the shows is too Sci-fi? So thier aliens, the aliens are what made them in the first place. -_-

[LUCKFF]

You Say That The New Series Is Loosely Based On The Old Comic, But You Make The Point Right There: Its Based On The Comics. Loosely Based Doesn't Mean That Its Also Based On Other Things. In This Case It Means That Laird Takes The Characters He Created In The 80's And Incorporates Them In This New Reboot. I Understand Why Laird Feels The Way He Does To Wards Bebop And Rocksteady. He Didn't Create Them. They Are Not From His Imagination. Those Characters Catered To Your Mind When You Were Young, So You Love Them. You Grew To Love Them. But Just Imagine When They Showed Laird These 2 Characters. He Must Have Been Like "wtf?!?". This Guy Created The Ratking, Raphael, Splinter, Casey Jones Etc. What Do You Think Bebop And Rocksteady Look Like To Him. And To Reboot Bebop And Rocksteady Now Would Mean To Create All New Characters All Together. They Do Not Fit In This Universe. By The Way, Bebop And Rocksteady Are Not The Only Characters, From The Old Show Laird Doesn't Like Never The Less Incorporate Them In This Series.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

Well, if your so upset about the sci-fi, you have to remeber that the whole series is sci-fi in general. It's four mutant turtles and a mutant rat, mutated by alien use, and they wal, talk, and act like humans.

Besides, the Turtles still have Hun and Karai to keep the urban/ninja thing going.

Bebop and Rocksteady don't need to be updated. Theyr'e not Mirage characters, they had no role in the comic, they don't need to be in the new series. The refrence to them in"Samurai Tourist" should have satisfied you.

And contrary to what you believe, Metalhead is a mirage character. The "dork with the metal hair" came out years before the robot version.

Look, while great, Bebop and Rocksteady were only comic reliefs, and thats all they were meant to be. It's not like Peter hates them to the bone or anything, I guess he just believes Shredder could have done without them. Besides, he never created them, so why should he be pressured into using characters he never created.

And to LUCKFF: I believe it was Kevin Eastman that brought up the idea for Casey Jones.

[Allo]

Originally Posted by iris

I feel that would be a rather limiting premise. I can understand wanting to see more martial arts, but I don't buy the idea that 'Ninja Turtles' is about martial arts, as counterintuitive as that may sound.

Without being condescending, I'll say it again - the very name of the show "Teenage Mutant NINJA Turtles" indicates the strong influence of martial arts on the film. I'm not saying it's the only running theme throughout the show (which would indeed be very limiting), but it is (or at least should be) the central theme.

Yes, it has (and rightfully so) elements of sci-fi, but the central theme should always be present. That is what I think Ectocooler, Masked Ninja and many other TMNT fans are talking about.

[VaughnMichael]

Originally Posted by Allo

Without being condescending, I'll say it again - the very name of the show "Teenage Mutant NINJA Turtles" indicates the strong influence of martial arts on the film. I'm not saying it's the only running theme throughout the show (which would indeed be very limiting), but it is (or at least should be) the central theme.

Yes, it has (and rightfully so) elements of sci-fi, but the central theme should always be present. That is what I think Ectocooler, Masked Ninja and many other TMNT fans are talking about.

shesh the ninja being in the name is a gimic...
this entire franchise started out as a game a joke if you will....
I love the tmnt just as much as anyone if not more at time liking redsky and next mutation and even image....because I love tales of the guys being told no matter how strange....BUT its just that guys everyones getting there panties in a bunch over nothing reallly
the turtles have always been about ninjas fighting and yes aliens from the very begining and it will always be that way no matter where they go.
you've seen the turtles go back in time now they will be going forward doesn't meen things are going to stop them from fighting.....infact I think the show may get even crazier now......
I honestly don't think anyone has anything to worry about we are just all bored and rambling about silly things so we have something to talk about with this lack of tmnt news.
-Putrescent