How much have cartoons changed over the years?

[Turtle Dove]

I was an 80's child and began to watching cartoons in 1984. Yeah my parents put me in front of the tube at age 3 and in a day care.

Has anyone noticed how much of a change it's been? Back in the 80's cartoons seemed more "Happy" the villians where cheap and usually lost but we still loved the heros who won.

Anyone remember the line ups? On Saturdays? on cable? (If you remember this, the cartoons and the intro you where an 80's child)--> The USA Cartoon Express!

What did you watch as a kid and where?

My earlest cartoons I recall where Transformers,TMNT, Count Duckula,DAnger Mouse.then the others came to me Heman,etc,etc

[The Stryker]

My mother dumped me in front of that TV practically since i "Came out"

of course, Loved TMNT and Wrestling (Alittle ashamed to say that I LOVED Ultimate warrior)

but damn...cartoons...I remember Tiny Toons,Yo Yo Yogi, Captain N,This weird Superman show and a whole bunch of others I can't remember.

Cartoons have changed alot but the same can be said for the age that we live in, so I guess its progression. We're living in the age of the Anti-hero.

[ThirdMarioBro]

Ahhh, my childhood.

Super Mario Bros Super Show
Captain N
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles
Masters of the Universe
Earthworm Jim
Mega Man
a bunch of stuff I forget cuz I'm tired.


Good times.

[Turtledude2k3]

Too many classic cartoons.

Megaman
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (Old and New)
Captain N
Super mario super show
The legend of zelda
Real ghostbusters
Smurfs
Ducktales
Gummi Bears
Chip&dale rescue rangers
Gargoyles
Talespin
Bonkers
Goof Troop
X-Men
The Tick
The simpsons
The Critic
Futurama
Family Guy
Harvey Birdman
Drawn Together


So many years, don't remember many of them, but I have a memory of these shows.

[Barkworm]

In my youngest years I watched light hearted Anime like "Tao Tao, the Panda", "Maya, the Bee", "Heidi" and "Vickie and the Vikings". back then I didn't even know that these shows were from Japan.
Later on I watched TMNT (duh), Transformers, Mask, C.O.P.S., Thundercats, Talespin, Chip'n Dale, Darkwing Duck, Gummi Bears (age 7-10). I guess I forgot many.

[Drtooth]

Funny thing you said that, Barkworm..... The last cartoons you mentioned were ALSO animated in Japan at one point.

But here's my assesment: I feel cartoons have come both a long way, and made a sharp turn backwards all at once. While I do love my 1980's childhood cartoons, I do condem a lot of them for being basically toy commercials. I think that once Nickleodian aired it's innagural (I'm a horrid speller) Nicktoon line up, they changed the face of cartoons for some time. After Ren and Stimpy aired (it was created I think in 1979, and never sold until then), a lot of studios saw the power of Creator driven cartoons. Where as 80's toons were mostly created by faceless businessmen, the 90's saw a huge rise in "created by ______" in the title. That's pretty much both Nick and Cartoon Network right there. We also started making cartoons for kids that were clever, fresh, and funnier. They even had adult appeal. Look at the original Kid's WB line up: Animaniacs, Pinky and the Brain, Earthworm Jim, and Freakazoid. To this day, fans are angry that they aren't on DVD yet.... (though, BTW, plans for Animaniacs and Pinky and the Brain have been released).

But I think when Pokemon came, it changed everything. Not just the anime explosion (I credit DBZ for that) but the gross practice of once again making toy related TV shows. Also, more damn demographic focus groups.

However, I say that Cable is going strong, while broadcast and syndication have suffered big time. SatAM for CBS, ABC, and NBC, the once fearcest rivals of SATAM now bowed out with cheap reruns of cable shows each network owns. I do admit, there are some nice Disney Channel shows about, but CBS's Nick Jr. Line up is garbage. I mean, Little Bill is pretty good, a far cry from Cosby's first, and best, show Fat Albert, but still not unwatchable. But Blue's clues? GAG!

FOx Box had a nice line up going, before they started that "girl cartoon" crap, and polluted the network with Bratz and Winx. But, as I've said, Kid's WB has pure crap now. I mean, an obvious Spongebob knock off (ooh he's a cocoanut.... way too different), a meh Batman show, Endless Pokemon and Yugioh, that raping of Looney Tunes superhero fodder, and Viewtiful Joe, which just is too dull to even care about. I mean, sure, Xiaolin Showdown is good, though... but seriously. To which, they canned their weekday afternoon line up, because they felt they'd get more viewers with ER (okay), and 8 Simple rules (Hey! A show everyone hated, and kept going because people felt guilty John Ritter Died making that crap).

LONG gone are the days of the syndicated afternoon/morning show. People could claim cable, but I just don't see it. They feel that moronic unemployed adults would like to see 87 "different" Judge Joe Judy Jimmy Bob Billy Mathis shows, and ENDLESS Maury Povich "I had an affair with my cousin's brother's mail man! Now feel sorry for me, since I had a bastard child, who is, should I mention 400 pounds, because I'm too stupid to know not to feed a 2 month old a stack of ribs" episodes. (Hey! I look for the TRUE freak lable.... might as well sneak a South Park refference too).

[ZariusTwo]

The 80s' cartoons still hold up and nowhere near deserve to be condemed. They are often ten times superior to what we have now.

Transformers ascended beyond being a toy commercial, and was probably the best in terms of adding deapth to the storytelling when it was'nt screwing up continuity, the animation may not have been up to much, but it stil lremains above everything I've watched before or after, even Beast Wars and Batman: TAS.

Other toy commercials that were superior are Visionaries, M.A.S.K, and Centurions.

There only thrashed because people are either spoiled on current products (MAINLY all of Bruce Timms' work and Gargoyles that emerged in the 90s'), or there too bitter to reflect on it without nitpicking at every negative aspect of it. For every negatives theres' a positive, its' about time some people learn that, lighten up, and respect the shows they enjoyed once, and the people who created them.

I probably should not generalise like that, but its' a bandwagon thats' just getting f*cking old, especially on certain websites I hate with a passion and want to tear down for being biased and disrespectful to aspects of the industry.

[BlueSonnet]

It was the early nineties in which i got into the saturday morning cartoon fad but most of the stuff i watched was from the 80s i think. Yeah good stuff. Gets on my nerves when someone knocks the 80s.

Most of the supposed big cartoons these days tend to be about Gr8 CG Grafix or the task of how many hollywood movie stars can they squeeze into the voice cast. Not always the case because we're still treated to good toons. But i'm convinced that if the 80s were a stage of change, the 21st century so far is a more dormant one. Well that's me anyway.

[Peanut]

Obviously all the stuff everyone else mentioned, but I never really watched anything on TV besides TMNT up until about...I don't know...90, 91? Back then I used to watch Camp Candy and then Super Mario Bros. 3. I remember those two on saturday mornings vividly for some reason. Then as I got older there was stuff like Reboot, The Adventures of Sonic The Hedgehog, Bump In The Night. All good stuff. I wish I could get a hold of all of it on DVD.

[Turtledude2k3]

Whata bout cartoons in the present?

I know a lot of good ones.

We got the justice league series, the new tmnt, samurai jack, south park, family guy, american dad.

[Jo Dawn]

80's Cartoons RULED. I can't even remember all the ones I used to watch. (Though, as I was really active in sports and outdoors stuff with my family and stuff, I really only watched Saturday morning cartoons.)

I mean, first off...
Smurfs
The Littles
The Snorks
David the Gnome
Maya the Bee
The Little Koala (those these are more from when my brother was little and I'd watch with him)
He Man
Sheera
Transformers
Jem (Jem is adventure, Ooooh Jem!)
Rainbow Bright
RosePetal
GI Joe
Ewoks
Droids
Fat Albert (Hey hey hey!! I loved Fat Albert!)
Foofur
The Get Along Gang
Gummi Bears
Heathcliff
Kissyfur

....

And that's ALL I can think of for now. Alot of them were from when I was older, watching with my little bro... But ah, good times, good times.

I can still sing the theme song for most of them, too.

[BartAllen]

I think in some ways cartoons are more mature, but in other ways. they have gotten really silly. I remember that silver hawks show, i remember it had a lot of stuff that wouldnt be shown on a saturday morning cartoon today.

[Drtooth]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

There only thrashed because people are either spoiled on current products (MAINLY all of Bruce Timms' work and Gargoyles that emerged in the 90s'), or there too bitter to reflect on it without nitpicking at every negative aspect of it. For every negatives theres' a positive, its' about time some people learn that, lighten up, and respect the shows they enjoyed once, and the people who created them.

I probably should not generalise like that, but its' a bandwagon thats' just getting f*cking old, especially on certain websites I hate with a passion and want to tear down for being biased and disrespectful to aspects of the industry.

While I do admit thAt it is a road often traveled, it's one of those commerce vs. art type discussions. Personally, what I come to find is that their are two kinds of cartoon watchers, the people who just watch TV and the people who want to get into the industry. A lot of people are bitter because they have great ideas quashed by the business because they just want to make money off of merchandising and spinoffs and what have you. Like me!

I mean, any aspect of entertainment is a dirty, bloody, hypocritic, and or brutal. This is why certain films never see it past a script, and they keep releasing the same Die Hard wanna be over and over. Same reason why we have poser rap and rock groups, and certain people with real talent have to play songs in a bus station.

With that said, while I don't like the idea of commercial based cartoons, I'm not saying they are garbage. Transformers? Hell, If us 80's kids ran the country, the flag would be replaced an Autobots logo! Of course, ripoffs like Go-bots? that's another story. I fell 80's cartoons a mixed bag (Mainly because of the ripoffs and girly preschool Strawberry Care Bear Pony junk).

However, I was illustraiting a point in the trends of saturday/weekday programming in the 80's. Personallly, the shows were MUCH MUCH worse in the 70s! Hannah Barbera kept ripping off it's own Scooby-Doo (Jabberjaw, Goober and the Ghostchasers), or Filmation's The Archies (Josie and the Pussycats, Amazing Chan and the Chan clan). Not to mention either animated Spinoffs (Brady Kids, Dukes of Hazzard) and Ripoffs (The Oddball Couple, The Barkleys) of then famous TV shows. There were more memerable shows in the 80's for sure. All 1970's had was Fat ALbert.

But there's a reason for the "Toy Commercial" based shows. They tried to have a couple in the 70's, including Heroes on Hot Wheels. In fact, due to an FCC ruling, the show was eventually canned because they felt it was an advertisement. The ruling was changed in the 80's. Of course, in the 60's there were cartoons based on Breakfast cereal characters (Linus the Lionhearted, based on several Post cereals).

But what it all comes down to is show quality. Transformers and GI Joe were always pretty good. Just because they were used as toy commercials doesn't necisarily mean they were bad and or forgettable. And cartoons created by cartoonists are't necisarily always superior.

[Doppleganger]

Ah I love 80's cartoons!

Well first off there was...

Real Ghostbusters
Jo Dawn mentioned a good one
...David the Gnome (Why isn't that out on DVD?!)
Transformers (of course)
Gi Joe
Super Mario Bros.
Legend of Zelda
He-man
TMNT (old)
A few others I don't care to mention...

80's was good 90's was even better...

B:TAS
S:TAS
Gargoyles
the TMNT clones (Extreme Dinosaurs, Street Sharks)
Wild West Cowboys of Moo Mesa
X-men
Spiderman
Sonic: SatAM

Those were some of the good ones. I'm tired now so I can't put up a full list.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by Drtooth

With that said, while I don't like the idea of commercial based cartoons, I'm not saying they are garbage. Transformers? Hell, If us 80's kids ran the country, the flag would be replaced an Autobots logo! Of course, ripoffs like Go-bots? that's another story. I fell 80's cartoons a mixed bag (Mainly because of the ripoffs and girly preschool Strawberry Care Bear Pony junk).

...You know, I never saw Starwbeerry, and I've seen and nejoed every girls cartoon at the time, Care Bears was definatly worth it sometimes, before the 1990s' ruined 'em. Remember the first movie with the warlock book that posssed this youngster ametur magician? Gloriously forboding.

I also recall Pound Puppies only having one good attirbute...the movie. The Legend of Big Paw


I guess the reason I'm presently hot is because I listened to a podcast from TZ (impovment in the forums aside, worst animation site ever) with Ben Applegate saying he could never "convince people that He-Man sucked", why did he have to drop that line? Whoo de doo, he hates He-Man, did he HAVE to express it like that? It just further proves how much of a prat he is and how callous and corporate his site is as a whole, and how dated this bandwagon is. The He-Fan communiuty would NEVER stoop as low as he did to anything else.

His forums on the site have all moved on from that rubbish, but his mods and vets keep taking these old potshots. Get with the programme you frauds. Nobody cares nor listens anymore.

But what it all comes down to is show quality. Transformers and GI Joe were always pretty good. Just because they were used as toy commercials doesn't necisarily mean they were bad and or forgettable. And cartoons created by cartoonists are't necisarily always superior.

Too true, but on certain sites, they can't see past the nature of why they were created and feel a little guilty that they were roped into providing money for corporate spending courtesy of the goverment at the time to fund later events, be it Star Wars, or the gulf war. In short...there tame variations of emos. They praise shows like Brandy and Mr. Whiskers, a cheap knock off of a dosen things, just because Disney potentially line their pockets and nothing else, the same route they went down with Kim Possible, which actually DID improve but only after three seasons of efforts. At one point, they hated The Batman, now they love it, and warn anyone who makes threads thrashing it.

Other shows that get heavily thrashed without looking at the success of what it accomplished is Captain Planet, won numerous emmys for its' premise and format of environmental awareness, but it seems its' liberal content is what turns some people off of it. "too preachy" my ass, thats' just an excuse to ignore what the detractors do there whole lives to the planet and could'nt care less.

[Drtooth]

I agree. Personally, it's not the shows based off of toy lines I hate, so much as the principle of Marketing executives designing shows for kids. If I were to complain about, and deny any shows like this, basically, I wouldn't watch ANY of my childhood favorites. This also pretains to movie based cartoons (Ghostbusters, BTTF), Video game based cartoons (Super MArio Bros. Super Show, Kirby), and even the occasional one based off a TV show (Alftales). So the idea is relative. It's like dismissing CGI animation, because Dreamworks and other companies see dollar signs, while Pixar sees it as an art form. What can I say, it's the animator in me. Of course, not all marketing based cartoons are toy related (though often times, toys are in mind). Remember, Loonatics and Coconut Fred (the two worst shows on television, IMO) are marketing based. It's that demographic thing, what can I tell you.

Of course, I could have gone art snob on everyone, and disavowed cartoons all together, in the theme of artistic animation. I'd also mentione names only a few scholars would know, Including Jan Svenkmier (very heavy existential stuff). Believe me, in art school, you do meet these types! Trust me.

I consider myself more favoring older shows, BTW... I mean, classic WB Looney Tunes, The Bullwinkle Show, and Hannah Barbera's inagural programs (Yogi Bear, Huckleberry Hound). But I like all kinds of cartoons and animation, myself.

But back on the thesis of the subject, there have been trends in TV cartoons over the years, and I'm just going to list the general aspects.

The basic idea of Saturday morning kids' programming came out late 50's early 60's. There were kids programming all over the 50's (mainly puppetshows and old theatrical cartoons). In deed the first "Cartoons" produced for TV were basically still drawings accompanied by narration (think the story segment in Reading Rainbow, not even slightly animated). Jay Ward was the first to develope an original animated show for TV, Crusader Rabbit. And Hannah Barbera was the first to capitalize on the idea several times (starting with Ruff and Reddy). They dominated the networks through the 70's with different programming.

The early 60's saw more comedy oriented programming such as Bullwinkle (a prime time show at the time), the Flintstones (also prime time), Looney Tunes reruns (which stood as a staple on network TV for decades. Often times, spinoofs of characters would be on different channels, sometimes even being schedualed against each other). In the mid-late 60's there was a sharp turn towards more "Super Hero" type action shows, possibly brought on by the success of the Live action Batman show. Most were also Hannah Barbera, including Space Ghost and Frankenstien Jr. There were more comedy oriented action shows towards the end of the decade, including Wacky Races and Scooby-Doo. The biggest hit at the tail end of the decade was the Archies, which was a fictional rock group at the time. You may recall the song "Sugar, Sugar." This show, along with Scooby Doo played a large role in the following decade.

The 70's had several things going for it. #1, Scooby Doo was a big hit, so Hannah Barbera (as I've said) copied the formula over and over. #2, The singing teens solving a mystery format was also huge, again, hannah BArbera capitalized on that idea. #3, random fads like Kung Fu and CB radio... try to guess who used those ideas, too. #4, animated versions of sitcoms, legitamate, or not. and #5, most predominant in the 70's the live action "Sid and Morty Krofft" shows.

The 80's had started out with some comedy shows like Inspector Gadget and Heathcliff, but saw a sudden rise in cartoons based on Toy lines (again, using it as a general term for the decade) such as Transformers. Another trend (started by Jim Henson, BTW) was the "baby version" of the characters. Muppet babies was based off of a fantasy Miss Piggy had during the movie The Muppets Take Manhattan, in 1983. With this, classic cartoons became children (once again, consult Hannah Barbera), or had children themselves (Popeye, Pink panther). This goes on even to this day. unfortunately, none can quite trump the success, triumphs, or even like-a-bility of this sereis.

The we all know, the 90's. With cartoons like the Simpsons and Ren and Stimpy, lead to the rise of more creator driven shows. Whether made for kids or adults, they had a broad line of appeal. Mid 90's saw a rise in wacky Superheroes (my favorite genre BTW) mainly because of the success of the Tick. Then came Dragon Ball Z and Pokemon, starting the anime trend.

Which brings us to today. The trends of the 80s and 90's are still around, but they are all mixed together. Animes based on Toy lines, creator driven adult shows, the list could go on. Older shows like TMNT and even He-Man were made darker, perhaps for the adult fans. I would like to see the next trend, mainly so I can have a chance to capitalize it.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by Drtooth

not all marketing based cartoons are toy related (though often times, toys are in mind). Remember, Loonatics and Coconut Fred (the two worst shows on television, IMO) are marketing based. It's that demographic thing, what can I tell you.

Coconut Fred is more of a casher in, its' pretty much Spongebob on land. Imitators are nothing new. Loonatics on the other hand is everything you just said, I'm all for futurisitic Loony Toons, as long as its' from Dini or guys who were behind Frekazoid and Animaniacs, or not pushed as "Loony Toon Descendents", but that is never going to happenn.

[quote[There were more comedy oriented action shows towards the end of the decade, including Wacky Races and Scooby-Doo. The biggest hit at the tail end of the decade was the Archies, which was a fictional rock group at the time. You may recall the song "Sugar, Sugar."

Recall? Patently was raised with it, Archie, I recall, had a breif comeback in the 80s', and again with DICs' "Weird Mysteries"

The 80's had started out with some comedy shows like Inspector Gadget and Heathcliff, but saw a sudden rise in cartoons based on Toy lines (again, using it as a general term for the decade) such as Transformers. Another trend (started by Jim Henson, BTW) was the "baby version" of the characters. Muppet babies was based off of a fantasy Miss Piggy had during the movie The Muppets Take Manhattan, in 1983. With this, classic cartoons became children (once again, consult Hannah Barbera), or had children themselves (Popeye, Pink panther). This goes on even to this day. unfortunately, none can quite trump the success, triumphs, or even like-a-bility of this series.

I kind of liked Popeye and Son, I thought it freshned up Popeye first and formost and offered up an interesting dynamic (the son hated spinnage, Popeye and Olive were married, but nowhere near living the life Bluto was, that of a tycoon, great material), it probably is the best and most underrated incarnation of Popeye ever.

Which brings us to today. The trends of the 80s and 90's are still around, but they are all mixed together. Animes based on Toy lines, creator driven adult shows, the list could go on. Older shows like TMNT and even He-Man were made darker, perhaps for the adult fans. I would like to see the next trend, mainly so I can have a chance to capitalize it.

He-Man was always darker than people give it credit for, and you have to keep in mind nobody ever acknowledges the New Adventures of He-Man, which had Jake Olster, a great writer, guiding it for the majority of its' run

[Peanut]

Originally Posted by Turtledude2k3

Whata bout cartoons in the present?
I know a lot of good ones.
We got the justice league series, the new tmnt, samurai jack, south park, family guy, american dad.

Samurai Jack is probably my favourite "present" cartoon of all time. Damn is that show good. How the hell does stuff like that get canceled?

[Turtledude2k3]

Originally Posted by Peanut

Samurai Jack is probably my favourite "present" cartoon of all time. Damn is that show good. How the hell does stuff like that get canceled?

well i guess the ratings could be one.

look at fox, if you watch the first episode of season 4 backin may, peter mentioned shwos that were cancelled off of fox..

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by Turtledude2k3

well i guess the ratings could be one.

look at fox, if you watch the first episode of season 4 backin may, peter mentioned shwos that were cancelled off of fox..

(for reference, he means Family Guy, and all of the shows Peter mentioned never went beyond a first or second season, Jack went three)