Karai OC because of Mystics/Heart of Tengu?

[longing for leo]

Ok, I've never started a thread before...but after posting this in the Scion of the Shredder arc, I realized that it doesn't really fit there. So this is a thread for theories on why Karai is being so...OOC/cold/emotionless (except for hate), etc. I'd love to hear other's thoughts/theories on the matter...but PLEASE, no spoilers. If you've found info about what will definitely air on the show, please do not post it because I, for one, prefer to be surprised. This is just my theory, I have no idea whether it will come to pass.

But honestly would karai not being shredder matter to you if you were in Leo's situation? Considering how hard he tried to reach her, I think so! I'm not saying he won't hurt her. But I don't think he'll just kill her, either, unless he has absolutely no other choice. It would be so wasteful, when he knows what good she's capable of, when she's not raving mad. I don't know... I can't predict what will happen.

But let's be honest Leo trying to reach out to Karai shouldn't happen either. Leo learned his lesson about listening to Splinter way back in "the shredder strikes" and if Splinter says there is no saving her I can't see Leo thinking there is. It may be that he's ultimately not the one who can reach her, and it has to happen within herself. I dunno.

At least now, he really does understand that they can never be friends again. What she did crossed the line, and I'm pretty sure Leo's memory of their past friendship shouldn't stop him from doing what he has to do, now. Karai's mind is made-up, as far as I can see it. There's nothing Leo can say because there's nothing Karai wants to hear, now that her father's gone. She endangered HIS father... that's a direct slap in the face.

There's so much that can happen. I'm going to be climbing the ceiling by Saturday. <-- or doing that.

I just had a thought (more like a wild/desperate/grasping at staws hope )...

You know how many of us think Karai's being OOC? ...Her voice, denial of all old care for Leo, honor, or any reason at all, and the whole one-track mind set on achieving one goal (killing tmnt) because of one reason (her dad's defeat) thing...

Well, what if she's being OOC because she's not actually in character? What if she's being controlled...I for one am very suspicious of the Foot Mystics, the Heart of Tengu, and their absence in SotS. What if, instead of allowing Karai to control the Mystics, the HoT instead allows them to control her?

I just think it's weird that they suddenly show up and are controllable by some crystal thing. That only after we see her with them and in possession of the HoT did we ever see Karai acting like this (evil/uncaring/cold)

I know I sound like some desperate/crazy fan trying to think of any possible way to prove that Karai is not, in fact, evil and that she has not (permanently) gone over to the dark side....And maybe I am one, come to think of it... jk But really, the thought just hit me that we don't have a lot of info when it comes to the Mystics or the HoT...so maybe they've got more to do with her sudden personality change than just the loss of her father.

I mean, it doesn't even make sense that she would go off the deep end and to the dark side...She saved Bejing, she saved the turtles (Leo especially) several times, apparently she even considered them friends, so why would betrayal be enough to make her like this? She and her father betrayed the turtles (her promise to lift the vendetta and leave them alone)...she even stabbed Leo...right after he'd just saved her...

So I just think that she's being OOC and the Mystics/the Heart of Tengu is a possible reason as to why. I'm interested to see if it turns out that anything like this is going on. I imagine (if that were the case) that she's snap out of it during the climax of a fight...maybe the HoT will be broken and she'll come back to herself. Your thoughts?

[Anarky]

Yeah, right, because friends can't turn on each other and females can't be truly evil. It's a good theory and it fits in with the show and the medium cartoon, but I hope that you're wrong. Not because I like you, but for the show's sake. I think it would add a lot to the show if she's really, truly evil.

[longing for leo]

Yeah, right, because friends can't turn on each other and females can't be truly evil.

Nah, don't take me wrong. I don't mind female baddies at all...and I know that betrayal amoung friends is one of the most destructive kind of hurt. I am NOT saying that friends can't or won't ever turn on each other. My point is that I don't think that the show provided us with enough plausable reasons as to why she should betray him.

It's a good theory and it fits in with the show and the medium cartoon, but I hope that you're wrong. Not because I like you, but for the show's sake. I think it would add a lot to the show if she's really, truly evil.

You like me? Um, thanks...I think. I agree that it would add a lot....It would make the show much darker/depressing/and hopeless. It would make it more mature, and I might even enjoy it more...but...she wasn't evil, so why should she be know? I simply do not understand how a person with her morals/code of honor could suddenly and irrevocably become a one-dimensional, black/white, just evil character with absolutely no sublty or depth. It doesn't fit. IMO, at least.

Obviously you are entitled to your own. I appreciate your response and am truely interested in hearing your reasons behind Karai's sudden change after the loss of her father to friends. Perhaps you think that it is completely plausible that she would want to kill those who turned in her father...but why?

I moved the discussion below from the SotS discussion. Note: I'm responding to Fledurmaus.

I think desperate/crazy fan is in denial.

Lol, probably...but still...

The stabbing was accidental, and she was acting insane even before this episode -- remember the way she treated the Foot Mystics like slaves?

Exactly, the stabbing was an accident (hence her suddenly wanting to kill Leo & his entire family is a bit OC). Also, it is possible that the Mystics wanted her to believe that she is in control at 1st, but really they were influincing her mind (thoughts & emotions). I know that this sounds really far fetched...and to be honest, I don't think that it's what's going on...I just had the "what if?" thought.

Besides, if the Mystics were really pulling all the strings -- we should have gotten some clues. If they suddenly reveal that Karai was just "under some spell" all this time and all the hurt and boo-hooing will be made better once they destroy the mystical artifact -- total cop-out.

Yes, I admit it would seem cop-out/disappointing if suddenly Karai snaps out of it and, "Oh, I didn't mean any of it." I think that (where this theory true) it would be more likely that Karai did harbor these feelings/thoughts of anger...it's just that the Mystics pushed her to act on them.

Instead of going through an actual personal battle, all they gotta do is say the magic words and *poof* bad guy turns good. That would undo just about everything. Karai's 8itchiness has to be self-induced in order for this to work.

I don't think that the hurt would go away at all...especially if the turtles don't believe her. That could be really tragic, actually. And I would hope that it would be a personal battle within Karai that allowed her to fight against the Mystic's influence. I see what you're saying about the "poof, bad guy turns good" thing being a problem...but I would argue (just to play devil's advocate) that she isn't a baddie at all...but is really a misguided good guy. I know, far fetched...but still, is it possible?

[Anarky]

Plausible? Since when are emotions plausible or since when do they follow any logic? Your father got destroyed. Everything he built and worked for is gone, thanks to four terrapins that you called your friends. So basically, the TMNT betrayed her and she just can't side with them any more. Because, if you turn around the view and see the whole thing from Karai's side, the TMNT suddenly are the bad guys. They've spoilt the Shredder's plans too many times, they've been in her family's way too often. Just like Leo's "Grrr... I'm teh ev-uhl and dark!!!111"-phase. Only that hers is probably here to stay.

[Fledermaus]

Ah... A long, long time ago, I wrote a kind of film-viewer's analysis on what prompted Karai to turn to "the dark side." I'll try to sum it up, since I don't want to hunt for it, nor do I want to write an essay. I'll try not to, anyway.

NOTICE: This is not to be confused with philosophy. More like when you read a book and discuss it in English class, or watch a film and write an analytical essay on its undercurrent themes or character conflicts. It can be heavy, and it can take the fun out of enjoying the art. It's fun if you make the art as well, but... it's not for everyone, and so I'm warning you to stop reading this post if you haven't the stomach for that sort of discussion.

I try not to draw too much from beyond the source material. I try to ground my arguments in the context of the show, the point of view of the characters, as well as some person experience.

Here I go...

Karai had no parents. We don't know why or how. We don't know if Shredder in fact killed her parents and then adopted her to... In east asia, orphan = social outcaste, refuse, LOOZER. You have no place in this world. You have no life. And people make sure you remember it. (Made sure. Dunno how it is over there nowadays.) Therefore, is very nice when someone goes out of his way to adopt you. Veeery nice.

Don't forget that filial piety. To a cool, cynical America, it may seem trifle, if unrealistic. But I'm telling you, for some reason, asians just... we have this thing. Gotta honor your folks, gotta avenge those who hurt your folks, even if your folks are kinda whack. I don't understand it myself, but this cliche is true much of the time.

Set-up: try to understand Karai's honor from HER perspective. Understand her affection towards her "father." Strange as it may seem to you, that squishy alien slug is all she's ever had. As she said to Hun, "[Shredder] gave [her] a life."

Second, we know Shredder left Karai in Japan to look after things. Alone, away from the direct orders of her father, Karai may have developed her own moral compass. Throughout seasons two and three, we see Karai having some major difficulties in obeying her father's commands. But she was lucky for a long time, because Shredder never actually witnessed her disobedience.

UNTIL!... Exodus Pt. 2. Finally, Karai had to choose who to follow -- herself or her master. She chose herself. We know what happened. Shredder turns on her. But what's this? After two seasons of aiding the turtles in secret, so as not to upset her father, Karai goes and does just the opposite. As we've seen in thelatest episode, she now seems nearly identical to the Shredder in spirit.

Or she's trying to be.

What caused this? One possibility is that, by trusting Leonardo, or at least siding momentarily with his ideas of honor, Karai rebelled against her "father," thereby breaking her own code of honor -- which differs from Leo’s in that she eventually places loyalty/devotion above morality. (I think she had been struggling with loyalty versus her own conscience, but in the end, she didn’t “follow her heart…” not an idealistic decision, but not an unrealistic one either.

The result of her trying to save Leonardo's life was her Master's attempt to kill her for her disobedience. The one who made her, the only one who went out of his way to pick her up out of the gutter… he turned on her. What do you think she should have felt? Surprise? Indignation?

What about sadness? What about heartbreak? This was essentially "disownment" by the only father she's ever known. -- all because she followed her own sense of what is right. Karai learned that the penalty for disobedience is disownment. And that is greatest dishonor of all, in Confucian cultures. (unofficially, at least.)

Possibly to ease her own guilt, Karai convinced herself that Leonardo and his "twisted view" of honor are to blame. After all, was it not by his encouragement that she followed her conscience? Aha! Turtles are to blame! Therefore, it wasn’t really Karai’s fault that she was disowned -- the turtles framed her, betrayed her. In addition, to undo her unforgivable sin, she vowed to complete what she should have allowed her father to do: destroy the turtles.

She has to redeem her worthiness in her father’s eyes. Because doesn’t that matter most?

I think that will be decided as this season progresses. What is more important? Daddy’s approval, or be-true-to-yourself sentimental crap? A happy Mulan ending would have the latter win out.

Though, one thing you have to keep in mind… first you choose your path, then it chooses you. It's possible that Karai has concluded that kindness and mercy are weaknesses -- her father did not posses such traits -- and they caused her much grief. Like Leonardo, she would not be betrayed by such weakness again, so she is becoming as ruthless and severe as possible -- which is what her name means, by the way. (more idiomatic Japanese, not just spicy/salty taste ) She doth willingly do away with any traces of "weakness."

If this arc is to follow the happy Mulan ending, Leo will reawaken that inner child of innocence and that inner child will break down the walls of blindness and...

etc.etc.etc.


Well, that was a terrible, unnecessarily long-winded waste of my time, but I hope it got you to ask some different questions, leolonger. Tchuess.

[Masked Ninja]

^ Aaand all of that makes perfect sense. Thankye for the wisdom, Fledermaus the Great. Now I don't have to write an essay.

[Mandi-chan]

Originally Posted by longing for leo

Ok, I've never started a thread before...but after posting this in the Scion of the Shredder arc, I realized that it doesn't really fit there. So this is a thread for theories on why Karai is being so...OC/cold/emotionless (except for hate), etc. I'd love to hear other's thoughts/theories on the matter...but PLEASE, no spoilers. If you've found info about what will definitely air on the show, please do not post it because I, for one, prefer to be surprised. This is just my theory, I have no idea whether it will come to pass.




I just had a thought (more like a wild/desperate/grasping at staws hope )...

You know how many of us think Karai's being OC? ...Her voice, denial of all old care for Leo, honor, or any reason at all, and the whole one-track mind set on achieving one goal (killing tmnt) because of one reason (her dad's defeat) thing...

Well, what if she's being OC because she's not actually in character? What if she's being controlled...I for one am very suspicious of the Foot Mystics, the Heart of Tengu, and their absence in SotS. What if, instead of allowing Karai to control the Mystics, the HoT instead allows them to control her?

I just think it's weird that they suddenly show up and are controllable by some crystal thing. That only after we see her with them and in possession of the HoT did we ever see Karai acting like this (evil/uncaring/cold)

I know I sound like some desperate/crazy fan trying to think of any possible way to prove that Karai is not, in fact, evil and that she has not (permanently) gone over to the dark side....And maybe I am one, come to think of it... jk But really, the thought just hit me that we don't have a lot of info when it comes to the Mystics or the HoT...so maybe they've got more to do with her sudden personality change than just the loss of her father.

I mean, it doesn't even make sense that she would go off the deep end and to the dark side...She saved Bejing, she saved the turtles (Leo especially) several times, apparently she even considered them friends, so why would betrayal be enough to make her like this? She and her father betrayed the turtles (her promise to lift the vendetta and leave them alone)...she even stabbed Leo...right after he'd just saved her...

So I just think that she's being OC and the Mystics/the Heart of Tengu is a possible reason as to why. I'm interested to see if it turns out that anything like this is going on. I imagine (if that were the case) that she's snap out of it during the climax of a fight...maybe the HoT will be broken and she'll come back to herself. Your thoughts?

I really like that theory, and I do feel it kinda makes sense.

I can understand that Karai would be angry and upset after what happened with her father, but the way she's acting now...is just too insane for me to swallow.

Plus, it doesn't quite match with how she acted at the end of Exodus:

• She stood up against her father to save Leo and got backslashed for it, she didn't look to thrilled about that to me.
• She looked horrified when the Utroms were listing all the horrible things her dear daddy did.

And then we have the "This is not what I wanted!" line. Showing her anger with how the situation turned out-but that anger isn't anywhere near her cold, nutty, OC behavior she has now.

So yeah, I see the HoT controlling her as a good possibility.

[VaughnMichael]

omg Karais gonna be on the oc when! I have to like totally set my vcr!

[X]

If they write it in that the Mystics are controlling her then I for one will be dissapointed. Why?

First off in Bad Day she was the one who made the Mystics fool around with the Turtles. I doubt they'd put her under their spell just so they can receive orders from her. In that case they would wanna take charge not be on their hands and knees saying "sorry this, sorry that."

She expressed she wanted to see them destroyed from that very moment, and got onto the Mystics for failing.

So if they ever take it to heart to show her being under an influence then that screams plot hole.

Just my two cents.

-X-

[Mandi-chan]

Originally Posted by X

If they write it in that the Mystics are controlling her then I for one will be dissapointed. Why?

First off in Bad Day she was the one who made the Mystics fool around with the Turtles. I doubt they'd put her under their spell just so they can receive orders from her. In that case they would wanna take charge not be on their hands and knees saying "sorry this, sorry that."

She expressed she wanted to see them destroyed from that very moment, and got onto the Mystics for failing.

So if they ever take it to heart to show her being under an influence then that screams plot hole.

Just my two cents.

-X-

Good point.

I'll stand by the "she snapped" theory for now...how are the writers gonna handle this?!