Who would win?

[The Terror of Death]

Can any of the turtles beat Splinter without their mystic powers? I am not shure but I think in episode The Ancient One Leo said he learned all all of Splinter's lessons. Also, he did beat Karai who Splinter was about to be killed by if was not for Donatello in Scion of the Shredder. As for the other three turtles I think they are too undisciplined.

[Warhorse]

Karai was almost killed by Raphael in Exodus 2 if Shredder hadn't stopped him.

[The Terror of Death]

Originally Posted by Warhorse

Karai was almost killed by Raphael in Exodus 2 if Shredder hadn't stopped him.

Scion of the Shredder came after Exodus 2 in which Karai appared to be faster than Raph. ( She easily parried his oncoming blow when she was about to kill Splinter) Splinter even said Karai is faster than Shredder.

[Warhorse]

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Leo sneak up on Karai when she wasn't expecting it in Scion of the Shredder? Isn't that how he got the better of her?

Also, people have thought that Splinter decided it was best for Leo to get away for a while, to get a breather of some sorts from the stuffy lair, where Leo was feeling slightly agitated and suffocated by the events following Exodus.

And I personally think the episodes of season 4, such as Scion of Shredder and the Ancient One are kind of rubbish and show too much of a super Leo, and is a bit of a turn off for me. I've seen others complain about the same thing.

You say that Karai was faster than Raphael, which is how she beats him. Well, Mikey is supposed to be gifted in the speed category, and those episodes pretty much spit on all of that. Just my two cents.

Answer to your question who would win against Splinter. Probably Leo. Raph lets his anger exhaust his energy, Mikey is not as disciplined (imagine how good of a fighter if he put in as much time as Leo, considering he is almost nearly as good with half the training, and weilding one of the most difficult weapon there is) and Donny always used his brains over brawn. If Splinter and Donny had to duel it out on Jeapordy, I definitely see Donny winning that by a land slide.

[poobone]

on any given sunday.....

[triplexxx]

They each got a hit on Karai at some point or another: Leonardo bested her in swordfights several times, Raphael came close to killing her in Exodus 2, Donatello kicked her down and saved Master Splinter while he was in the midst of handling 50 of her minions, and Michaelangelo double-teamed her with Leonardo in Good Genes 2 and threw her out of the elevator. The way I see it, Karai was able to handle every turtle very well when they first met, but after Exodus, she lost her edge over them and had to hide behind her armies like her father, otherwise, she'd have been dead in Scion of the Shredder; in Prodigal Son, it was simply mono y mono which made it easy.
As for Splinter, I don't think it could happen. That thing with Leonardo in the Ancient One was an isolated event, in which it was supposed to be nothing more than a practice bout, which should've ended after Splinter's sword was knocked away, but Leonardo got carried away and hit him after it was over, which I think would've happened if any of the others got carried away, even if they didn't win. Not to mention, Michaelangelo did knock him across the room in Freaks Come Out At Night. What these two events have in common is Splinter wasn't expecting it. Maybe they could take him down when he's not expecting, but he usually is.
Also, in Fast Forward, he's still kicking their butts when they're grouped together (Future Shellshock & Invasion of the Bodyjacker).
And the funny thing is, if Splinter can't handle Karai and the turtles can, how can they not handle him?
P.S. I think a subject like this is only gonna degrade turtle fandom, so no more threads like this.

[The Terror of Death]

Originally Posted by Warhorse

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Leo sneak up on Karai when she wasn't expecting it in Scion of the Shredder? Isn't that how he got the better of her?

Yes, he he did sneak up on her but he did not sneak attack her. She was at no disadvantage unless you count Leo's training from the Ancient One.

[The Terror of Death]

Originally Posted by triplexxx

And the funny thing is, if Splinter can't handle Karai and the turtles can, how can they not handle him?

The only person to beat Karai after Exodus was Leo. Don't foget Karai killed Raph in SAINW when he went into a rage, which seems to contradict the time he almost killed her in Exodus. Don got that hit in Scion of the Shredder because he kicked her the second after she countered Raph. Also as you pointed out Mike was with Leo in Good Genes. If Splinter or the three turtles would fight Karai one on one I seriously think they would lose. In no way am I bashing them I just believe what I see.

[triplexxx]

Originally Posted by Franknada4

The only person to beat Karai after Exodus was Leo. Don't foget Karai killed Raph in SAINW when he went into a rage, which seems to contradict the time he almost killed her in Exodus. Don got that hit in Scion of the Shredder because he kicked her the second after she countered Raph. Also as you pointed out Mike was with Leo in Good Genes. If Splinter or the three turtles would fight Karai one on one I seriously think they would lose. In no way am I bashing them I just believe what I see.

After/Before Exodus, doesn't matter, every factor needs to be considered. She also killed Leonardo in SAINW; besides, SAINW was alternate universe and may not be 100% applicable. And like I said about Donatello, he was also busy at the time Splinter was about to be killed, he was dealing with Karai's armies; in Prodigal Son, Leonardo didn't have her armies to worry about, just her, so he got off easy.

About going one-on-one against Karai, three of the five of them have actually done it: Splinter (Scion of the Shredder), Leonardo (Rogue In The House 2/Exodus 2/Prodigal Son), and Raphael (Exodus 2); aside from this, there were no other one-on-one situations (except in SAINW, but I already said that's not completely applicable). Raphael and Leonardo both succeeded in besting her when it's a one-on-one situation, but Splinter didn't. You can't speak for the others cause they never went one-on-one with her. So the truth is: in a one-on-one battle, Karai bested Splinter but never the turtles.

[The Terror of Death]

Originally Posted by triplexxx

After/Before Exodus, doesn't matter, every factor needs to be considered. She also killed Leonardo in SAINW; besides, SAINW was alternate universe and may not be 100% applicable. And like I said about Donatello, he was also busy at the time Splinter was about to be killed, he was dealing with Karai's armies; in Prodigal Son, Leonardo didn't have her armies to worry about, just her, so he got off easy.

About going one-on-one against Karai, three of the five of them have actually done it: Splinter (Scion of the Shredder), Leonardo (Rogue In The House 2/Exodus 2/Prodigal Son), and Raphael (Exodus 2); aside from this, there were no other one-on-one situations (except in SAINW, but I already said that's not completely applicable). Raphael and Leonardo both succeeded in besting her when it's a one-on-one situation, but Splinter didn't. You can't speak for the others cause they never went one-on-one with her. So the truth is: in a one-on-one battle, Karai bested Splinter but never the turtles.

Your so misinfomed I'am not even going to take the time to list all your mistakes. (Nothing personal dude)

[oldshreddersgirl]

I have to be honest the one who i think would win hands down,

IS ME HA HA HA HA MERRY CHRISTMAS

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by Franknada4

Your so misinfomed I'am not even going to take the time to list all your mistakes. (Nothing personal dude)

Well, for starters, you pretty much made up your mind on the answer to your own question before you even started this thread.

But that aside, care to enlighten us on how wrong triplexxx is in his enterpertations of the new toon?

And what would you do if once after the Fast Forward crap is over and the regular series ensues, and they show Mikey getting his focus and whipping Splinter, Leonardo and Karai without breaking a sweat? That the show is now rubbish?

Also, SAINW was kind of ridiculous in my view. Especially how Karai single handedly slayed both Leo and Raph. To me, that's preposterous, and another reason why I don't care for that episode much.

Triplexxx is right that Leo had an advantage over his brothers in The Prodigal Son Returns. He was fresh, and just coming off a training stint that revived him. His brothers and Splinter were caught off guard, and had more than just Karai to deal with. Also, Splinter has aged, and it would be incredible tough for him to take on Karai and the foot soldiers all at once. But as for the other Turtles, I think if they had advantages like Leo did, they could take on Karai, or at least she would definitely be feeling them the following morning.

[The Terror of Death]

This is going to be long so please do me the favor of reading all of it if you want to prove me wrong and shut me up.

Originally Posted by Warhorse

Well, for starters, you pretty much made up your mind on the answer to your own question before you even started this thread.

Nah, I don’t remember a lot of the episodes so I was really expecting someone to prove me wrong with some valid evidence. Turns out I was wrong.

Originally Posted by Warhorse

But that aside, care to enlighten us on how wrong triplexxx is in his enterpertations of the new toon?

Yes, I will be glad to enlighten you guys later on in this post.

Originally Posted by Warhorse

And what would you do if once after the Fast Forward crap is over and the regular series ensues, and they show Mikey getting his focus and whipping Splinter, Leonardo and Karai without breaking a sweat? That the show is now rubbish?

No, I wouldn’t feel that the show is rubbish because TMNT is not that kind of show. Trust me when I tell you that it is never going to happen. Now if Larid and the staff lost their minds then I would accept Mikey winning.

Originally Posted by Warhorse

Also, SAINW was kind of ridiculous in my view. Especially how Karai single handedly slayed both Leo and Raph. To me, that's preposterous, and another reason why I don't care for that episode much.

Karai killing Leo and Raph may be preposterous but it is very possible. For all we know Karai could have trained to achieve that level of skill so do not immediately call it preposterous just because you didn’t like how the events turned out. Although, I will agree that I can not use SAINW to back up my theory because it was a different universe/dimension.

Originally Posted by Warhorse

Triplexxx is right that Leo had an advantage over his brothers in The Prodigal Son Returns. He was fresh, and just coming off a training stint that revived him. His brothers and Splinter were caught off guard, and had more than just Karai to deal with. Also, Splinter has aged, and it would be incredible tough for him to take on Karai and the foot soldiers all at once. But as for the other Turtles, I think if they had advantages like Leo did, they could take on Karai, or at least she would definitely be feeling them the following morning.

Now, before I answer how triplexx is wrong in some of his interpretations of the new toon (because I do not have the right to say what someone feels is wrong) I want you to tell me if the following sounds logical or if I need some serious professional help. For starters after and before Exodus does in fact matter. Someone could get weaker in this amount of time or someone could get stronger. Ex: Would it make sense to say the Shredder from the beginning of season two is stronger than the shredder at the end of season three? No, because we all know which exo-suit is more powerful.

If I remember correctly, Splinter fought Karai one on one. Yes, he did fight foot soldiers a little earlier on but not once during his fight with Karai did any foot soldiers intervene. He lost fair and square old age old age or not. No where in this episode did Karai directly try to attack the turtles. Don and Raph attacked her when she was about to kill Splinter. So all this stuff about having to fight both Karai and her men never happened. The turtles fought the soldiers while Splinter fought Karai. The guys were caught off guard, so what. Don’s alarm went off so any attack after that is fair game. Or is a security alarm meant for something else besides warning you? The turtles could not have been at a disadvantage if Karai did not even make herself an opponent to them. Leo did not have an advantage over them. You can possibly argue that Splinter was at a disadvantage but I doubt it because I don not even remember the soldiers getting a hit on him.

Someone seems to be forgetting an episode called City at War. Karai beat both Leo and Raph one after the other. What makes the victory even better is that she could have killed them if not for some intervention. (Leo saved Raph and Karai changed her mind about killing Leo) Do you remember the two aides with Karai? They beat Don, Mikey, and Casey. I have no evidence to suggest that Karai is stronger than her assistants but the logical answer would be yes since she is their leader. If this helps any, Shredder’s foot soldiers begin to use Karai’s fighting style in season three and the turtles even say they are stronger. So if Karai can beat Raph and Leo, I doubt Don and Mikey would could not beat her aides could do any better against her. In a sense you say she beat all the turtles in City at War or she was at least stronger than all of them.

If the turtles had the same chance to fight Karai I can honestly say she would win. Leo beat Don and Raph easily in season four twice. He had a longer time beating Splinter which suggests that Splinter is stronger than Don and Raph. Mikey asked Splinter to train him in Grudge Match so if he thought he was a better fighter than Splinter it would not make sense to come to him. He then came to Leo. If Mikey could not beat a foot mech and Leo could what does this suggest? If that was not enough, Karai trained to beat the turtles. We can thank the season four dvd for showing us this scene. Would she seriously attack if she was not prepared? This can explain using the foot mystics and waiting as long as she did to attack them. She was beaten by Raph in Exodus so it makes sense that she was training to beat them. The robots she was fighting were even in their replica. Whether you want to believe it or not training can make you a better fighter. Even if its a villian training.

[triplexxx]

Originally Posted by Franknada4

Nah, I don’t remember a lot of the episodes so I was really expecting someone to prove me wrong with some valid evidence. Turns out I was wrong.

Um....actually I did prove you wrong and you just helped prove some of the points I made.

Karai killing Leo and Raph may be preposterous but it is very possible. For all we know Karai could have trained to achieve that level of skill so do not immediately call it preposterous just because you didn’t like how the events turned out. Although, I will agree that I can not use SAINW to back up my theory because it was a different universe/dimension.

If you can't use it as evidence for yourself, there's no reason I can't use it against you. Has it actually happened in the real world? No, and until it does (which won't happen), it can't be considered possible.

Now, before I answer how triplexx is wrong in some of his interpretations of the new toon (because I do not have the right to say what someone feels is wrong) I want you to tell me if the following sounds logical or if I need some serious professional help.

Well for starters, I wasn't making an interpretation at all in my last post, I was stating things that actually "did" or "didn't" happen in the show, because I do remember the episodes.
I stated every instance either Splinter or any of the TMNT actually did go up against Karai one-on-one:

Leonardo (3 times): Rogue In The House 2, Exodus 2, & Prodigal Son
Raphael (1 time): Exodus 2
Splinter (1 time): Scion Of The Shredder [you even stated so in the following quote]

If I remember correctly, Splinter fought Karai one on one. Yes, he did fight foot soldiers a little earlier on but not once during his fight with Karai did any foot soldiers intervene. He lost fair and square old age old age or not.

All 3 times Leonardo went up against her one-on-one, he beat her.
The one time Raphael went up against her one-on-one, he beat her.
The one time Splinter went up against her one-on-one, he didn't beat her.

If the turtles had the same chance to fight Karai I can honestly say she would win.

Leonardo and Raphael did get their chance to fight Karai, as I just pointed out, and they beat her. Donatello and Michaelangelo never got this opportunity for themselves, so you cannot speak for them in regards to this.

Nowhere in this episode did Karai directly try to attack the turtles. Don and Raph attacked her when she was about to kill Splinter. So all this stuff about having to fight both Karai and her men never happened. The turtles fought the soldiers while Splinter fought Karai. The guys were caught off guard, so what. Don’s alarm went off so any attack after that is fair game. Or is a security alarm meant for something else besides warning you? The turtles could not have been at a disadvantage if Karai did not even make herself an opponent to them. Leo did not have an advantage over them.

Um.....yes he did have an advantage. Let me clarify this situation: the turtles had hundreds and hundreds of foot soldiers, several foot mechs, underwater divers, choppers, etc.; hence, they each had it 60-70 times harder than Leonardo did, he faced one foot mech and Karai, and no one else. And Karai could've attacked them if she wanted to, she simply decided to let her huge armies get them all used them up first, proving that she had become a cowardice, like her father. Karai is strong, but the huge army she brought along was over 50 times stronger. They did get notice of her coming for them via alarm, but before they had time to do anything about it, it was already too late: she had them trapped in the center of their home, and had every possible exit to their home covered. And in spite of all this, they still managed to outsmart her by making her think they were dead and survive. And why is that? BECAUSE THEY'RE NINJAS.

Someone seems to be forgetting an episode called City at War. Karai beat both Leo and Raph one after the other. What makes the victory even better is that she could have killed them if not for some intervention. (Leo saved Raph and Karai changed her mind about killing Leo) Do you remember the two aides with Karai? They beat Don, Mikey, and Casey. I have no evidence to suggest that Karai is stronger than her assistants but the logical answer would be yes since she is their leader. If this helps any, Shredder’s foot soldiers begin to use Karai’s fighting style in season three and the turtles even say they are stronger. So if Karai can beat Raph and Leo, I doubt Don and Mikey would could not beat her aides could do any better against her. In a sense you say she beat all the turtles in City at War or she was at least stronger than all of them.

That's why I pointed out in the very first post I put here: "Karai was able to handle the turtles very well when they first met her"; but this never again happened after these episodes. And since her assistants accompanied her, this can't be considered a "one-on-one" situation. Not to mention, you stated in this quote:

For starters after and before Exodus does in fact matter. Someone could get weaker in this amount of time or someone could get stronger.

Apparently, she got weaker, cause she never again handled them this well.

If that was not enough, Karai trained to beat the turtles. We can thank the season four dvd for showing us this scene. Would she seriously attack if she was not prepared? This can explain using the foot mystics and waiting as long as she did to attack them. She was beaten by Raph in Exodus so it makes sense that she was training to beat them. The robots she was fighting were even in their replica. Whether you want to believe it or not training can make you a better fighter. Even if its a villian training.

No where in this episode did Karai directly try to attack the turtles.

In that case, why didn't she attack the turtles herself in Scion of the Shredder?
Yes, training can make one a better fighter, but nothing beats "experience". It can never be the same in the training room as it is out in the field; the turtle replicating robots cannot and never will be like fighting the real thing. What made her ready was all the advancements she had made with her foot ninjas/techs, underwater divers, foot mechs, etc. Why did she take along this whole army of minions and technology? Because she was obviously certain she couldn't do it on her own; heck, she even attempted to call in help in Prodigal Son when she went face-to-face with Leonardo, but he stopped her. The only one she managed to handle without help was Splinter.

[The Terror of Death]

Originally Posted by triplexxx

Um....actually I did prove you wrong and you just helped prove some of the points I made.

How exactly did you prove me wrong? I still do not see any logical proof of how the three turtles could have beaten Karai in Scion of the Shredder one-on-one. If you show me some evidence that suggest Splinter is weaker than them or that he was off his game that day then I will be glad to admit I was wrong. I need to see how season four Don, Raph, Mikey, and Splinter are stronger or weaker than themselves in previous seasons.

Originally Posted by triplexxx

If you can't use it as evidence for yourself, there's no reason I can't use it against you. Has it actually happened in the real world? No, and until it does (which won't happen), it can't be considered possible.

I never said Karai actually killed anyone in the real world or that SAINW is possible. But you can not deny the fact that she could have killed them in City at War without any help.

Originally Posted by triplexxx

Well for starters, I wasn't making an interpretation at all in my last post, I was stating things that actually "did" or "didn't" happen in the show, because I do remember the episodes.
I stated every instance either Splinter or any of the TMNT actually did go up against Karai one-on-one:

Leonardo (3 times): Rogue In The House 2, Exodus 2, & Prodigal Son
Raphael (1 time): Exodus 2
Splinter (1 time): Scion Of The Shredder [you even stated so in the following quote]

Warhorse called your statements interpretations. I quoted him that time, not you. I merely used that word to answer his question. Also, you did not list every instance of one-on-one fights. You keep leaving out City at War.

Originally Posted by triplexxx

All 3 times Leonardo went up against her one-on-one, he beat her.
The one time Raphael went up against her one-on-one, he beat her.
The one time Splinter went up against her one-on-one, he didn't beat her.

All 4 times Leonardo went up against her one-on-one, he beat her three times and lost one time.
The two times Raphael went up against her one-on-one, he beat her once and lost once
The one time Splinter went up against her one-on-one, he didn't beat her.

Originally Posted by triplexxx

Leonardo and Raphael did get their chance to fight Karai, as I just pointed out, and they beat her. Donatello and Michaelangelo never got this opportunity for themselves, so you cannot speak for them in regards to this.

In case you were not paying attention I was talking about having the same chance in season four. I must also blame myself for not being more clearer at times. I meant if Mikey and Don had the chance.

Originally Posted by triplexxx

Um.....yes he did have an advantage. Let me clarify this situation: the turtles had hundreds and hundreds of foot soldiers, several foot mechs, underwater divers, choppers, etc.; hence, they each had it 60-70 times harder than Leonardo did, he faced one foot mech and Karai, and no one else. And Karai could've attacked them if she wanted to, she simply decided to let her huge armies get them all used them up first, proving that she had become a cowardice, like her father. Karai is strong, but the huge army she brought along was over 50 times stronger. They did get notice of her coming for them via alarm, but before they had time to do anything about it, it was already too late: she had them trapped in the center of their home, and had every possible exit to their home covered. And in spite of all this, they still managed to outsmart her by making her think they were dead and survive. And why is that? BECAUSE THEY'RE NINJAS.

For the last time the turtles could not have been at a disadvantage if Karai was never going to fight them. She commanded her foot to destroy them. She never said fight them and then leave them for me to kill. And when I said the turtles were warned I did not say that was the signal for them to leave. I meant that they should have been ready to fight if a enemy showed up. This is not the first time someone intruded into their home. Don could have installed some traps or defensive weapons. I do not underestimate the turtles. In fact, I once felt they could beat Karai but I dismissed that idea once I saw their performance in the rest of season four.

Originally Posted by triplexxx

That's why I pointed out in the very first post I put here: "Karai was able to handle the turtles very well when they first met her"; but this never again happened after these episodes. And since her assistants accompanied her, this can't be considered a "one-on-one" situation.

Her assistants fought Mikey, Don, and Casey but they never laid a finger on Raph or Leo. They did not even go up to them. So yes, it was one-on-one.

Originally Posted by triplexxx

Apparently, she got weaker, cause she never again handled them this well.

If she beat Splinter so easily I doubt she got weaker. She also countered Raph easily. If she was weaker fighter Raph should have landed that hit easily. Also, Leo simply had much better training. The other turtles hit Karai in season four (except Raph) but they never fought her one-on-one.

Originally Posted by triplexxx

In that case, why didn't she attack the turtles herself in Scion of the Shredder?
Yes, training can make one a better fighter, but nothing beats "experience". It can never be the same in the training room as it is out in the field; the turtle replicating robots cannot and never will be like fighting the real thing. What made her ready was all the advancements she had made with her foot ninjas/techs, underwater divers, foot mechs, etc. Why did she take along this whole army of minions and technology? Because she was obviously certain she couldn't do it on her own; heck, she even attempted to call in help in Prodigal Son when she went face-to-face with Leonardo, but he stopped her. The only one she managed to handle without help was Splinter.

When I said replica I meant they looked the same not fight the same. (Again, my fault for not being clear) It is quite possible that Karai could have gotten an ego when becoming the Shredder. With the foot clan becoming stronger than her fathers ever was the power could have gone to her head. This would make her feel that the tutles are unworthy of fighting her. If the turtles managed to get past her foot she would then deem them worthy to attack. Hence, her parrying Raph. Shredder never dirtied his hands unless his foot were having a hard time. So it makes sense for Karai to honor her father by following his ways when becoming the New Shredder. She doubted they would win so she did not attack them. If she and her father were truly cowards they would have never made themselves known to the turtles or they would have merely watched battles from a safe place. Ch'rell even attacked Raph in season two despite knowing he could not do much as a utrom. Shredder and Karai are not afraid to risk their lives. Never once have I seen Karai or Shredder run away from the turtles. They may use henchmen before fighting but what villian would let his/her emmense resouces go to waste. When she fought Splinter she knew there was a chance the turtles would try to save him. When Raph attacked her she would have ran away or asked the elite guard for protection if she was scared.

[triplexxx]

Originally Posted by Franknada4

How exactly did you prove me wrong? I still do not see any logical proof of how the three turtles could have beaten Karai in Scion of the Shredder one-on-one. If you show me some evidence that suggest Splinter is weaker than them or that he was off his game that day then I will be glad to admit I was wrong. I need to see how season four Don, Raph, Mikey, and Splinter are stronger or weaker than themselves in previous seasons.

For one thing, there were no one-on-one situations with any turtles in this episode, so that cannot be spoken for. However, the last time that Karai actually fought Raphael one-on-one, he did beat her; the only reason she was able to fend him off this time was because she got him used up with fighting her armies and protecting his brothers, she also got Donatello worn out with her armies, but after she blocked Raphael, this gave him the opportunity he needed to kick her, and he took it.
Also, I never said Splinter was weaker than the turtles, but they were able to handle Karai better than he was (which is kind of lousy logic since in Fast Forward he's still kicking all their butts). If I remember in the original comic book storyline, at the end, Splnter told all the turtles they had all surpassed his teachings; and think about this (yes, I'm using Fast Forward as an example, cause like it or not, it is a continuation of the new series):
Splinter allowed all the turtles the privledge of being Cody's sensei at the end of Home Invasion.
Not to mention, they were the four who were chosen by the Ninja Tribunal.

This suggests that slowly but surely, the turtles are getting closer to surpassing Splinter.

In case you were not paying attention I was talking about having the same chance in season four. I must also blame myself for not being more clearer at times. I meant if Mikey and Don had the chance.

But....they didn't get the chance, so there is no proof that they couldn't have beaten her.

For the last time the turtles could not have been at a disadvantage if Karai was never going to fight them. She commanded her foot to destroy them. She never said fight them and then leave them for me to kill. And when I said the turtles were warned I did not say that was the signal for them to leave. I meant that they should have been ready to fight if a enemy showed up. This is not the first time someone intruded into their home. Don could have installed some traps or defensive weapons. I do not underestimate the turtles. In fact, I once felt they could beat Karai but I dismissed that idea once I saw their performance in the rest of season four.

They were ready to fight, and they took out as much of her army as they could've, but there was too much against them to take out the whole army and also Karai, and to get to Karai, they'd have had to get through her armies first; so their only available option was to lose her and her forces by escaping and then faking their own deaths. And how does their performance in the rest of season 4 say they couldn't have beaten her? The only time they encountered her after all this was in Good Genes, and every time she tried to slash at Leonardo and Michaelangelo, she never hit either of them once. Like I said about after City at War, she was never again able to handle the turtles that well in battle without her forces backing her up. Had they taken out all her forces, she'd have gladly taken them on herself even if she couldn't beat them, she simply prevented that by making this task impossible for them to accomplish.

Her assistants fought Mikey, Don, and Casey but they never laid a finger on Raph or Leo. They did not even go up to them. So yes, it was one-on-one.

All 4 times Leonardo went up against her one-on-one, he beat her three times and lost one time.
The two times Raphael went up against her one-on-one, he beat her once and lost once
The one time Splinter went up against her one-on-one, he didn't beat her.

Okay you were right here, the City at War encounters for Leonardo and Raphael were one-on-one, but this was the only time she bested them by her own efforts, and all their victories came after this.

If she beat Splinter so easily I doubt she got weaker. She also countered Raph easily. If she was weaker fighter Raph should have landed that hit easily. Also, Leo simply had much better training. The other turtles hit Karai in season four (except Raph) but they never fought her one-on-one.

I already told you, Raphael was busy handling her armies and helping his brothers, so she had gotten him pretty worn out by the time he attacked her. Had he gotten another fair chance like in Exodus 2, he'd have gotten her. As for Leonardo, I already told you he didn't have her armies to deal with, so he got the fair chance Raphael didn't get to defeat her.

When I said replica I meant they looked the same not fight the same. (Again, my fault for not being clear) It is quite possible that Karai could have gotten an ego when becoming the Shredder. With the foot clan becoming stronger than her fathers ever was the power could have gone to her head. This would make her feel that the tutles are unworthy of fighting her. If the turtles managed to get past her foot she would then deem them worthy to attack. Hence, her parrying Raph. Shredder never dirtied his hands unless his foot were having a hard time. So it makes sense for Karai to honor her father by following his ways when becoming the New Shredder. She doubted they would win so she did not attack them. If she and her father were truly cowards they would have never made themselves known to the turtles or they would have merely watched battles from a safe place. Ch'rell even attacked Raph in season two despite knowing he could not do much as a utrom. Shredder and Karai are not afraid to risk their lives. Never once have I seen Karai or Shredder run away from the turtles.

Well if you remember in Shredder Strikes Back 2, Splinter told Shredder his attack, with all his armies, on Splinter's family of five was a "cowardly gambit". I'm not saying they're complete cowards, but villains always gather enough forces to outnumber the good guys several times over; hence, villains hardly put up a fair fight. As I mentioned, getting past her armies would be a lot tougher than fighting her. She obviously figured the turtles were worthy enough to fight her, so she chose to let her armies handle them. True, they weren't afraid to risk their lives, but they usually only did so when their "resouces" as you put it, have weakened the target first, or were simply not available. As for the Ch'rell thing in season 2, he had no choice but to put up a fight, he was surrounded by the turtles, his armies were not there, and had he not put up a fight, he'd have been dead anyway (only because of some God-given miracle did he survive), anybody would put up a fight in this situation.

They may use henchmen before fighting but what villian would let his/her emmense resouces go to waste.

Sometimes, being cowardly is the smart thing to do, it helps one understand his limitations. Sometimes cowardliness=resourcefulness.

When she fought Splinter she knew there was a chance the turtles would try to save him. When Raph attacked her she would have ran away or asked the elite guard for protection if she was scared.

Her elite guard were helping her by keeping him busy and wearing him out while she took care of Splinter.

[Warhorse]

To let you all know, I am a she, not a he!

It doesn't matter. Leo may be the only one who has ever outright learned beyond Master Splinter's teachings, as of now. But that doesn't nessecarily mean it will always be that way.

[The Terror of Death]

Originally Posted by triplexxx

For one thing, there were no one-on-one situations with any turtles in this episode, so that cannot be spoken for. However, the last time that Karai actually fought Raphael one-on-one, he did beat her; the only reason she was able to fend him off this time was because she got him used up with fighting her armies and protecting his brothers, she also got Donatello worn out with her armies, but after she blocked Raphael, this gave him the opportunity he needed to kick her, and he took it.
Also, I never said Splinter was weaker than the turtles, but they were able to handle Karai better than he was (which is kind of lousy logic since in Fast Forward he's still kicking all their butts). If I remember in the original comic book storyline, at the end, Splnter told all the turtles they had all surpassed his teachings; and think about this (yes, I'm using Fast Forward as an example, cause like it or not, it is a continuation of the new series):
Splinter allowed all the turtles the privledge of being Cody's sensei at the end of Home Invasion.
Not to mention, they were the four who were chosen by the Ninja Tribunal.

This suggests that slowly but surely, the turtles are getting closer to surpassing Splinter.

Wow, I never thought you would break me but you did. I was being stubborn and you gave some very good explanations so I have to applaud you for that. You are quite the knowledgeable 2k3 fan. I agree that Raph and Mikey most likely could beat Karai in a fair fight. Don on the other hand would probably lose due to his poor reaction time and defense. He isn’t a bad fighter its just that he sometimes has a harder time in fights than the others.
I cant really see the turtles getting worn out so quickly (All those long gauntlets with the shredder and the foot keep popping up in my mind) but the foot were at their strongest so I will agree. I could be wrong but didn’t Don attack a few seconds after Raph began his attack?
Well, I don’t really think what Splinter does in fast forward can be considered actual fights. The turtles did not even expect that Splinter was going to get involved into the fight over the remote. I think he used this as an advantage to get the drop on them. Besides, even if the turtles were stronger than him do you think they would get into a brawl with their own father just for a remote? (Though I would love to see Splinter’s face if they did do that ) Also, what Splinter did in the Bodyjammer episode was kind of a wtf moment. I don’t recall him displaying that kind of strength in other episodes. I will also agree that they are slowly surpassing Splinter but as of now he is still teaching them.

Originally Posted by triplexxx

And how does their performance in the rest of season 4 say they couldn't have beaten her?

That performance thing was just me getting mad over them losing to those wooden soldiers in the ninja tribunal episode.

Originally Posted by triplexxx

Her elite guard were helping her by keeping him busy and wearing him out while she took care of Splinter.

The elite guard never fought in this episode. They just came along so that the turtles had the chance to see them in their cool new threads.

[triplexxx]

Originally Posted by Warhorse

It doesn't matter. Leo may be the only one who has ever outright learned beyond Master Splinter's teachings, as of now. But that doesn't nessecarily mean it will always be that way.

Well...technically he hasn't, otherwise, Splinter wouldn't still be teaching him, and he is. But he probably will, but they won't let that time come without taking the other turtles along. (hint to future FF ep "Graduation Day")
P.S. I see you acknowledged me Franknada4; just to answer you're question: yes, Donatello did attack maybe one second after Raphael; and about Donatello, he may be the least fighter of the four, but he's still an extremely talented, swift, strong, and cunning ninja and usually great with defense, he ain't no amateur, but I'll just assume you know this already.

[bean]

After watching series I think leo has the only chance to beat splinter because of his training with the ancient one. The other turtles don't stand a chance because they don't focus enough.