What is it about the TMNT that makes them so unappealing?

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

For too long now this question has been floating around my mind, and I really need to know. Why is it that when it comes to characters like Spider-Man and Transformers, people can say things like "Oh these guys are so cool" or "I can relate to them so much". But when it comes to the turtles, the best people can say is, "I remember them from that 80's cartoon".

The Turtles are treated as nothing but kid stuff, mainly because of the concept. But I never understood that, the concept is no goofier than Spidey's or Hulk's. The point is to look past the silly orgin, and enjoy the stories.

Another thing I've found is, people say they would like to see a more grown up TMNT, but when the TMNT try to deliver on that, all of a sudden, all of a sudden you got a bunch of people saying it's raping they're childhood. Alot of times, people don't really know what they want with TMNT. Some want it all goofy, some want it completley hardcore, and anything less is unacceptable.

I thought it could be that maybe the general public don't think the characters are relatable. That they're not socially relevant. But even that doesn't make sense. If people would just let down they're gaurds they would see that they can relate to at least one of the Turtles.

If you're somewhat of an older brother figure, someone that has to be resposnsible for others. Or just someone that strives hard for perfection, you can relate to Leonardo.

If you're generally easy going, you like to have fun, you avoid conflict, rarely get angry, and you have a strong creative side, you can relate to Michelangelo.

If you have a curios mind, or if someone who tends to get really wrapped up in your work, so much so that you sometimes inadvertantly alienate people close to you, you can relate to Donatello.

If you're the kind of peorson that tends to take other people's problems on your shoulder, and alot of times get frustrated that you can't do much to help. Or if you're a loner, who solves they're own problems alone and doesn't like asking for help, you can relate to Raphael.

But still, there's no law that states you have to relate to a character to like them. How many of us can honestly say we can relate to Batman, yet we still like the character.

People will say they have such fond memories of the Turtles, but when it came to TMNT, no one would even go see it They say that this movie is tainting they're childhoods, but how exactly? This movie had nothing to do the orginal cartoon. The people who loved the 60's Batman series didn't complain when Tim Burton made Batman back in 1990. Or maybe they did, I don't know. Point is, people looked past the differences and accepted the movie for what it was. Why couldn't people do the same with TMNT? All the idiots that said it wasn't goofy enough, are being totaly unfair. Why didn't anyone say the same about Superman, or Hellboy, or the Transformers.

If TMNT had gotten a PG-13 ratting, would that have changed people's tunes. I think it would, seeing as how the PG ratting Warner Bros forced upon the movie didn't help it one bit.

I'm posing this question to TMNT fans and non TMNT fans alike. I need to know, what is it that makes the TMNT so different that it can't be accepted like Spider-Man and Batman?

[Spitfire]

People can totally relate to the TMNT. There's one TMNT for each problem a teenager has to deal with.

Leo - Responsibility
Raph - Rage
Mikey - Fun*Maturing*
Don - Intelligence*Thinking out problems*

Everyone no matter who they are in their lifetime has had all 4 of those and most people are in a constant state of one of those.

The problem with the comics is people see them and if they haven't already read TMNT before think "Aw those are probably kiddy like the cartoon."

Which we both know the NEW cartoon isn't kiddy but most older people don't watch it or give it a chance. Even though it's more adult it still doesn't appeal to an adult, nor does it to a child. It's for teens in my opinion.

The new movie was to dark for a kids movie but not adult enough for older audiences. This caused problems. Also the comics sported the movie turtles and not what was inside, which in most cases a violent bloody issue.

The unappealing factor is what you said, people just view TMNT based on their 80's and 90's run and not on what it really is. The old toon is a slice of the TMNT cake and it may be a big slice but the whole rest of the cake proves to me that TMNT is very adult and should be taken as serious as any other comic series.

To be honest the old comics are some of the best drawn, and written comics I've ever read. People praise Marvel for what they do but I have to say TMNT stomps any Marvel or DC comics I've read. And I've read alot.

[Katie]

It IS that whole "raping my childhood" thing that holds people back. That is why it will never be what it should. Some people are so fond of their version of TMNT that they will not accept anything different. Some ONLY know the kiddy version and figure that is all it is....and will never give it a second thought.

The various marketing and licensing folks COULD do a better job of making sure people are aware of ALL the different universes / aspects / versions of TMNT....but they don't. so people are left to their memories. And by and far those memories are of something that was part of their CHILDHOOD.


Personally I think it's weak to refuse any other version of TMNT (or any show for that matter) because the one you saw in your kiddy years was your first taste of something.

I'm not old enough to say this first hand, but imagine if we were all old enough to have seen that cheesy 60's live action Batman show as our very first introduction to Batman.....then decided nothing would ever be better than that. Look at all the neat movies and shows we would have missed...not to mention getting into the cannon of it. (now...I'm not really a big fan of anything outside TMNT...but you get my point)

I'm totally over all the TMNT "fans" that came out of the woodwork for this movie...ignorant fans who know nothing of anything than faded memories of a show they have not seen in years....then act like they know all things TMNT and flame me for not hating the new movie because there was no Krang Shredder and Bebop and Rocksteady....

Ugh...I'll get off my soapbox now

[triplexxx]

People can totally relate to the TMNT. There's one TMNT for each problem a teenager has to deal with.

Leo - Responsibility
Raph - Rage
Mikey - Fun*Maturing*
Don - Intelligence*Thinking out problems*

Everyone no matter who they are in their lifetime has had all 4 of those and most people are in a constant state of one of those.

I agree completely with that.

Since TMNT came into existence, it's become a lot of things. With the old cartoon, it leaned more to the goofy side. With the comics and new toon, it was more adultish, the comics being much more adult though. Those that can appreciate both the kiddy and the mature themes of TMNT, I believe, make the most loyal fans. And I don't think that should be so hard to do.

[GK Punk]

Originally Posted by Katie

It IS that whole "raping my childhood" thing that holds people back.

We have a winner.

Also Characters like Spidey, Batman etc have been around for several generations, and constantly had new things being released in the mainstream. If the TMNT can last, and stay in everyone's minds, for several more years it's possible that the TMNT can also be up there with our other beloved American Icons.

I'm pretty sure the TMNT can do it

[Mike Bock]

This is so true and I hate it.
I think that people don't take them seriously for many reasons and saddly one is because they are ninja Turtles. I've heard this so many times from alot of different people. Man I hate that.

How can you take a ninja Turtle seriously they say. It's a laughable concept.

But then I have to ask.. and what is so seriously cool about a car who transforms into a robot and has it's own life ? Is that better? Man that's even worse ( at least to me)

I still don't get it.

People tend to think of them as goofy animals for kids which is sad.

[Roseangelo]

Originally Posted by Michi heavenly6

We have a winner.

Also Characters like Spidey, Batman etc have been around for several generations, and constantly had new things being released in the mainstream. If the TMNT can last, and stay in everyone's minds, for several more years it's possible that the TMNT can also be up there with our other beloved American Icons.

I'm pretty sure the TMNT can do it

I totally agree.

The only way people are ever going to accept versions of the TMNT other than the 80s toon is if they're exposed to it. And right now Mirage is doing virtually nothing to expose anyone to that darker, more adult side of the TMNT. They're not even printing Tales of the TMNT in quantities high enough to fill orders. Number 32 is sold out on ninjaturtles.com and my comic shop never even got it in. My comic guy doesn't even believe me when I tell him that it's actually be published.

All those Marvel and DC characters exist on two tiers: for the kids and for the adults. Right now TMNT only exists for kids and it's hard to have staying power when you only target kids who are prone to change their minds and interests at the drop of a dime. Give them something of more substance when they get a little older and you can hook 'em for life.

[bullet]

Originally Posted by Michi heavenly6

Also Characters like Spidey, Batman etc have been around for several generations, and constantly had new things being released in the mainstream. If the TMNT can last, and stay in everyone's minds, for several more years it's possible that the TMNT can also be up there with our other beloved American Icons.

I'm pretty sure the TMNT can do it

right, given enough time i'm sure tmnt can get up there. the OT is what most people remember of tmnt and though it doesn't really match up to the depth of the comics, most people'd hardly be swayed to believe otherwise. they also don't really care to find out for themselves, lol. 20 years from now, when people talk about the tmnt, they might be talking about a totally different thing than the 80s OT...kinda cool to think about.

[themaxonline]

My guess is that they became such a big thing in such a short time that they were EVERYWHERE for a few years and then people got sick of them. It happens to everything that suddenly gets popular quickly and then eventually dies off. People associate it with that period of time and then it becomes uncool. It happens with other tv shows, power rangers and such, in music you have Alanis Morissette, in movies you have various actors. The only show I can think of offhand that was able to retain its popularity after going thru incredible overnight popularity was the Simpsons.
I guess if they hadn't made the movies and probably to an extent, the tv show so present-day oriented (you can totally tell they're from the late 80s/early 90s) and Michaelangelo's surfer talk doesn't help.
But I still proudly say that my favourite tv show is the original ninja turtles cartoon! I rarely get any negative comments about them either although to reiterate the first post, people often say "I loved that show when I was a kid" or "I haven't seen it in years".

[Mike Bock]

Originally Posted by themaxonline

people often say "I loved that show when I was a kid" or "I haven't seen it in years".

That's true. They should put the OT on re-runs alongside with the 2k3 and FF.

[Krang]

Originally Posted by triplexxx

Those that can appreciate both the kiddy and the mature themes of TMNT, I believe, make the most loyal fans. And I don't think that should be so hard to do.

Well put. While I agree that it is annoying when people refuse to see the new movie because it's not what they remember, those who attack the original cartoon over it certainly aren't helping any either (referring to TMNT fans in general, not people who have posted in this thread, who have been respectful so far ). I think it's important to realize that both the serious TMNT universes and the goofy ones have brought something to the plate and have gotten the TMNT this far, so even if fans of one don't like the other, they should at least be tolerant.

[Buslady]

i had a camp counselor tell me they weren't gonna see it cos they thought it would be just some cartoon. I hope I changed their mind after telling them yeah it's CGI but NO it's no corny cartoon, it's dark and wonderful like TMNT1.

Sometimes it feels like TMNT is dying all over again...no advertising being done, no more cool toys or household stuff made, like Roseangelo says, comics can't even be filled cos they're not making enough...now the movie's done and almost gone, they haven't bothered to tie up the current V4 story or given us any clues to it. I feels like they don't care IMO...I hope I'm way wrong.
I've run out of Raph things to collect! I'm going retro now with old figs to add!

[SassyGal]

That whole "raping my childhood" seems to be the major thing holding back the TMNT for many fans of the 80's cartoon. I freely admit that in the beginning, I didn't want to watch 2k3 TMNT because it wasn't what I remembered from my childhood But my younger cousin convinced me that I should give it try, so I did. After deciding just like many people, my TMNT had to change & once I accepted the 80's were over I really fell into the new series, hardcore. I bought some of the DVD's to catch up and kicked myself in the butt for not giving it a chance in the first place.

80's TMNT will always be my fav no matter how many people make fun of me, but it's time we TMNT fans (not the peeps in the 'Drome as we are all open-minded ) opened our minds & let the TMNT keep evolving. When it comes down to it, each of the turtles still imbodies what we loved about them when we first met them.

[Courk]

You all seem a few years older than me. I know I grew up watching the 87 series, and I remember Krang and the Technodrome and the theme song -- but that's it. I can't remember what the show was like. This means I don't know how kiddie it was. I think there's hope for TMNT yet, as the generation that can barely remember the old toon grow up. Yes, some people will always prefer that, but that's human nature. I think most people my age and younger aren't going to be as tied to the old toon and their TMNT experience will focus more on the new toon and the 4 movies. I don't think the comics are going to be a huge factor, aside from adaptations in the movies or shows, due to their limited availability.

I think another reason the comics won't count as much is the number of comics. The first 4 volumes have ~126 issues. I'm not sure if that's counting the single issue individual turtles issues. All in all, I count at least 287 TMNT comics, and 23 of those apparently don't count for continuity. The comics were only 3 years old when they got a series, too. All of about 20 issues of some form of TMNT had been published by the time the toon started -- and probably even less when you consider pre-production time. The old toon can't really be blamed for not following the comics -- there would only be so many stories that could be pulled from that number of comics.

For comparison, just Uncanny X-Men has 475+ issues, but it is 20 years older, and didn't even get a series until it was almost 30 years old.

Other comic books had time to grow and develop before anything was made out of them. TMNT didn't get to do much of that. I don't think it's fair to compare it to other comic book-based series and movies for those reasons. It didn't get to have much of a comic book life before it moved into other media.

[ajistheman]

not only have a lot of 20-30 year olds not give the movie a chance, they never gave the new cartoon a chance. The turtles didn't have pupils, they were drawn funny (aka different than 87 designs), the show was changed (aka different story), so they don't know that the 2k3 turtles could be enjoyed by adults. They think it is a kids property. Whereas Batman, spiderman, etc. has lasted several generations, and will continue lasting, i'm sure a lot of non-turtles fans think the turtles are only back because we are in an "80's fad". The movie got criticized for not being silly/funny enough by some, and not being violent enough by others. Some thought it was raping their childhood, because, maybe, they wanted a silly movie. Whereas most of the people here wanted a more violent adult version. If this movie was pg-13, maybe people would believe that adults would like it. Maybe, the fact that batman is enjoyed by kids, teenagers, and adults makes a difference. Kevin M. himself even said that this movie is being marketed to 18-25 year olds, and 7-11 year olds. This excludes the teenagers. Since batman applies to all ages, adults can like it (in people's minds), but since people aren't aware that tmnt can be for adults, and it isn't for teenagers, all that's left in their mind is a kid's franchise.

sorry, i think that post made a lot more sense in my head, my post is kinda all over the place

[Courk]

It made sense to me. Although, looking at how disjointed my previous post was, that may not mean much.

What did today's teenagers have related to TMNT when they were younger? A 16 year old would have been born in 1991 -- by the time they're 5, it's 1996 and the original toon isn't on the air. The next mutation was on for a year, so that can hardly count for much. It wasn't until 2003 that the new series started, and they would have been 12. That's a bit late to be building childhood memories.

[jenna]

It's a shame really that there is a mentality out there that TMNT should be like the 1987 toon or not at all, and equally that it should be like 2k3 and that the 1987 toon was rubbish. Both toons have their part to play in TMNT history and I for one really love them both - for very different reasons.

But the main thing is that even if the film was not a huge blockbuster, it resonated with both fans of 1987 and 2k3, the films and comics and maintains a loyal fanbase (us!) and that's a lot better than a lot of films out there.

[bullet]

right on, jenna...very well said.

[Revan]

The turtles have been tagged as a cute children's project. I think that's what makes them unappealing to those who are not already fans.

I love the OT and what it did for the franchise but it's because of the sillyness of the OT that people have come to refer to the turtles as cute.

[SassyGal]

Originally Posted by jenna

It's a shame really that there is a mentality out there that TMNT should be like the 1987 toon or not at all, and equally that it should be like 2k3 and that the 1987 toon was rubbish. Both toons have their part to play in TMNT history and I for one really love them both - for very different reasons.

But the main thing is that even if the film was not a huge blockbuster, it resonated with both fans of 1987 and 2k3, the films and comics and maintains a loyal fanbase (us!) and that's a lot better than a lot of films out there.

Excellent! I agree and couldn't have said it better!