Raphael - turtle of a thousand faces

[jenna]

Hey dudes and lady dudes

First of all, I apologise if this topic exists on another thread, but after some browsing through old threads, I ran out of patience and am starting this one.

Once again, I'm off to bed, but since I always find the most interesting conversations happen while I'm asleep (exceptin of course the contributions from my fellow Brits), I thought I would start one, this time about my favourite turtle - Raphael. In my opinion he is one of the most interesting characters ever written and would be a good case study for a psychological analysis too.

Raphael has been so differently portrayed in the various incarnations and I would like to hear everyone's opinions of the different sides to him that come out in these depictions.

I won't give my thoughts now - they will be far too long and borring and not only will typing them keep me out of bed for a while, they will bore everyone to tears so that no-one will get through reading this post and more importantly will be too knackered by reading to contribute.

So, I'm opening the floor.... please refer to comics, TV and films and any other versions you think are applicable... maybe even fanfics?

Go!

[Scandia]

Raphael is my LEAST favorite turtle- in all of his incarnations.

I dislike sardonic people because they are usually making fun of me for some reason or another- not just because I lack the ability to use and understand sarcasm unless provoked. But the OT version is still the most passable one.

I have no clue why in the world is he so angry at everyone and everything in the other incarnations. I mean, what does he want? To be the boss? To be left alone? To be number one? To have Splinter's undivided attention? To get ALL of the compliments from Splinter WITHOUT earning them?

Sure sure, there are bad guys and injustice in the world. But ALL the Turtles and the good guys are out combatting them. This is not just anger about bad things happening in the world or bad people getting away with bad things.

Without Splinter, Raphael would be totally lost. And I know that he appreciates his father and brothers very much. I can imagine his worst nightmare would be getting kicked out of the family. Hence this is why I think that he says "I'm leaving" or "I quit"- to go on his own before getting kicked out by another.

I wonder if Raphael wants Splinter to give him more positive attention. Or conversely if what he wants is Splinter off his back.

In a tangent, personally I think the Turtle that could be the most interesting is Donatello. Why? In some ways he is like Splinter, while in others he is very different. So with Donatello, Splinter has a Turtle in his hands that is neither a chibi version of himself nor totally unlike him.

[dj mav]

i didn't get why they portrayed him so different in the movies from how he was in the OT. i liked him in the OT best, cause he's so damn funny. he's probably my 2nd favorite, behind mikey.

[KROW]

Originally Posted by dj mav

i didn't get why they portrayed him so different in the movies from how he was in the OT.

That could be because in the original comic book series, he was a hothead whereas Mikey was the funny one. I guess that was better for the film than using Mike's stoner/surfer persona.



I liked Raph in the old toon because although he wasn't that loose cannon, he was humorous and sarcastic. It was odd, but it was still fun to watch.

Of course, I like him better the way he was meant to be.

[dj mav]

Originally Posted by KROW

That could be because in the original comic book series, he was a hothead whereas Mikey was the funny one. I guess that was better for the film than using Mike's stoner/surfer persona.



I liked Raph in the old toon because although he wasn't that loose cannon, he was humorous and sarcastic. It was odd, but it was still fun to watch.

Of course, I like him better the way he was meant to be.

oh ok, never read the comics.

[DonatelloDomeHead31]

"Raphael is cool, but rude (Give me a Break)" you have the first season song intro to thank for Raphael's attitude in the old toon.

[triplexxx]

OT: Raphael is a sarcastic joker, likes making fun of people, and is mild-mannered and sensitive. He's seems smart, witty, and utterly charming at times. There have also been times he's shown self-sacrafice, like when he stayed behind as a hostage for Bebop and Rocksteady at the Asian-American Cultural Center while the others carried Splinter back to the lair to recuperate him from the amnesia he got from the smoke bomb in Blast From the Past, and when he decided to be a superhero when he thought he was near death and nearly sacraficed himself in Raphael vs. the Volcano. He really cares for family.

NT: Raphael is sometimes hotheaded and rash, running into situations without thinking, and other times he thinks very hard and is extremely rational about things, like in the City at War arc, when he protested getting involved in the gangster war because he believed doing so would only make it worse. He has a keen intuition, like about Karai, he knew from the start it was a bad idea getting involved with her, trusting her, and in the end, his intuition about her was right all along. He's even tinkered with mechanics, like his motorcycle; so all in all, he's very smart. He seems to enjoy sarcastic jokes too, except for some that come from Michaelangelo. He preaches lessons he learns from his anger issues to that kid Tyler in Lone Raph & Cub. Again, he really cares for family.

Old Movies: Hot-headed, has a hard time with temper, like being alone. Again, he's passionate about his family's protection and takes it real hard when Splinter is kidnapped, they all did. Again, seems to enjoy sarcasm, especially in the second and third. And in the second and third, again he preaches against avoiding fights and handling anger to Keno and Yoshi, respectively.

New Movie: An independent loner trying to make good use of his time while his father has put his sons' crime-fighting days on hiatus and has somewhat neglected him (damn you, Splinter). Takes the family break-up harder than any of the others; in the end, realizes how much he needs his family and that he can't do without them. Like always, feels great concern for family.

[discordiatookie]

One of my favourite Raph stories is 'Sons of the Silent Age' (Vol 1 #2. All the way through he is distant, sulking away on his own. Casey tries to see what's up, and gets told that he won't understand, he's human. Then Leo tries, and basically gets told to get lost. Ultimately, we (and April) realise that what's wrong with Raph is that he's pondering about being the last of his kind, only four males in his whole species and after that, nothing.

Another thing with Raph is that when Splinter went missing in Vol 1, it seemed to hit him really hard. He even went out by himself looking for Splinter, which none of the other guys did.

Also, he seems very close to Shadow, even following her on a trip to Paris to keep an eye on her. He seems to have a very protective bond over her, perhaps its because its his best friend's daughter and he feels some responsibility? Anyways, I aint no psychologist, but I think that all this shows that he's not the loner and hothead that alot of people right him off to be...

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

What I don't get is, why is it that in every one of Raph's future incartnations, he's missing an eye?

[The Shelf]

Originally Posted by ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael

What I don't get is, why is it that in every one of Raph's future incartnations, he's missing an eye?

Arrr, 'cause he be mean like a piiirate, yarr!

[Buslady]

someone doesnt understand Raph.
Raph is angry mainly cos they're different, unable to live as people-with lives, jobs, fun things, families, denied everything they should have. Then there's the view Raph sees, he sees Splinter seemingly giving most of his time to Leo, the perfect student. Jealous? Probably. He feels neglected sometimes. We know he isn't. Splinter favors Leo as a student, that is undeniable.
Im gonna stop here cos were watching DrWho.....

maybe I'll type more...

[jenna]

Thanks for all your contributions. As promised here is mine.

Raphael’s character forms a polar opposite to each of his three brothers. Whilst Leonardo is level headed and sensible, Raphael is quick tempered and rash; whilst Donatello is quiet and gentle, Raphael is aggressive and violent; whilst Michelangelo is fun-loving and innocent, Raphael is angst-ridden and old beyond his years. His personality juxtaposition to his brothers isolates him from them and he is something of a loner. He has been shown at times to be a depressive, an insomniac, and unable to control his anger, often losing himself in his rage and at times becoming almost homicidal. He is fiercely protective of victims of crime to the point where he will throw himself into the line of fire to protect someone and adopts an eye-for-an-eye attitude to defending them and punishing their attackers.

The origin for Raphael’s anger and bitterness to my knowledge has never been fully explored, but is indicated to have its routes in, or at least to be fuelled by, his rivalry with his oldest brother, Leonardo, in whose shadow he has always lived; together with a self-loathing borne through understanding that he and his brothers can never enjoy the world as the humans do. In contrast to his aggressive attitude, he also has a very fragile side and is the most likely to experience extremities in emotion. He is also shown to be tender and compassionate to children. Despite their differences, Raphael is close to his brother Leonardo, but often on more of an unspoken level as they rarely see eye to eye. He is also often depicted as being particularly close with Michelangelo, who balances his cynicism and angst with humour and light-heartedness.

Due to the complexity of his character, he is favoured more in representations on the big screen, as the limitations of children’s TV series have caused interpretations of his character to be one-sided.

The 1987 cartoon, perhaps questioning the appropriateness of Raphael’s angry personality for children’s TV, tones his character down somewhat. Instead he is a sarcastic wise-cracker who rather than harbouring deep rage, is easily irritated, but much more friendly and humorous than in other incarnations. He tends to have a cynical, pessimistic outlook and is usually the first to fear that they will be defeated. He is also prone to panic in difficult situations, but remains calm and delivers fantastically biting retorts when facing an enemy. In fact, it could be argued that Raphael’s personality in this incarnation is a representation of the very core of the character – who Raphael would be if he had not suffered the emotional scarring he is shown to have in other incarnations. Uniquely in this series, there is little suggestion of any rivalry with Leonardo, and the two are shown to be very close friends. In Series 3, rather than be shown to be jealous of Leonardo’s role of leader, Raphael is shown to cope very badly when he is elected as leader in Leonardo’s absence. However, this side of him, along with the more gritty aspect to his personality, is developed in later episodes, and in series 8 he is shown on one occasion to challenge Leonardo to battle with him for the title of leader.

The 2003 TV series also chooses to avoid the complexity of Raphael’s character, although in this instance, focuses more on his aggressive personality. In this incarnation he is extremely tough, impulsive and quick to jump into a fight. He is highly competitive with Leonardo and often gets into arguments with him. It is suggested that this rivalry is a result of the two competing for the role of leader in their preteen years. He also has a very close relationship with Michelangelo, who loves to taunt Raphael and play jokes on him. Raphael is protective of his brothers and is shown to suffer the highest level of distress if one of them has been injured. Despite the fact that his vulnerable side is left largely untouched, he is shown to cry in this series. In Series 1, in a direct adaption of an episode from the Mirage comics Volume 1, Raphael allows himself to be taunted into a violent attack on Michelangelo during a sparring session, and comes close to beating his brother with a wrench. Consumed by guilt, this leads him to address his reactions to his anger, and attempt to gain some balance in his life. I personally find him harder to empathise with in this version and like him least of all than any other incarnation.

Raphael’s character is explored more deeply in the first film. In this film he is a highly volatile character, carrying self-punishing anger, resentment of Leonardo and is on the brink of some sort of personal crisis. His body is scarred and his shell is cracked in places, showing that his tough exterior is quite literally breaking. His vulnerability is a key element to his character in this incarnation and is concentrated on more so than in any other. His relationship with Leonardo provides much of the focus. Whilst they do not appear to get along with each other and are prone to frequent arguments, they are shown to have a very close, spiritual bond. In the middle of the film Raphael is attacked and beaten, and spends a large stretch of narrative unconscious, during which time Leonardo does not leave his side. Raphael’s recovery from this ordeal brings with it a cooling of the hysterical nature to his anger, and he becomes more mature with it.

The new film is very much a catharsis for Raphael and he is depicted as bearing responsibilities that are far beyond his capacities. It is also revealed that an aspect of his resentment of Leonardo is the result of the pain of feeling unloved by Splinter. He is much calmer and his anger is more intense, rather than being eruptive as in the first film. His role as The Nightwatcher is the epitome of his loner role, as he has resorted to taking on the crime in NYC on his own, without the support of his brothers. His reaction to the conflict with Leonardo coming to a head is the most revealing scene. Whilst he is furious at first and attacks without mercy, he realises his mistake and his anger turns to devastation. This story arc allows some of the conflict between the two brothers to be resolved. This is my favourite version of Raphael and is the way I always imagined he should be portrayed.

Wow - sorry to have banged on for so long.

[Scandia]

Wow. That is a lot to be said about a Turtle. We need to make similar threads for the other three. Starting with Donatello, since he's often neglected.

Anyhow, regarding Raphael:

1) Does he want to be "teacher's pet", in other words the best and/or favorite STUDENT?
2) Does he want to be "daddy's boy", in other words the best and/or favorite SON?

Because he seems to be envious of Leonardo regarding BOTH of those, and thus pick on him and resent him too much.

[jenna]

Originally Posted by Scandia

Anyhow, regarding Raphael:

1) Does he want to be "teacher's pet", in other words the best and/or favorite STUDENT?
2) Does he want to be "daddy's boy", in other words the best and/or favorite SON?

Because he seems to be envious of Leonardo regarding BOTH of those, and thus pick on him and resent him too much.

I don't think he wants to be teacher's pet or daddy's boy in the strict senses, but I think he hasn't been able to make the distinction between Splinter as a father and Splinter as a teacher. I think he sees Splinter's rewarding and praise of Leonardo as a declaration of love as a son. So he thinks Splinter loves Leo more than him and deals with this by going all out and trying to out-do Leo to prove himself worthy of Splinter's love. Interestingly, neither Don nor Mike seem to have similar notions, and Leo probably doesn't realise this is going on. These thoughts are based on the new film concept: "Just because you are not my favourite student does not mean you are my least favourite son". This is all Raph needs to hear in the end, and he picks himself up and takes action to rectify the damage he has done.

As for similar threads for the others, I have plenty to say about them too!

[Scandia]

Interestingly, neither Don nor Mike seem to have similar notions

If Splinter did indeed have a favorite SON, then there would be THREE very angry and jealous Turtles instead of just one. I do not think that Mikey's and Donnie's easygoing and laid back personalities alone would account for their not being upset that Leo is the leader and gets the most (earned) positive feedback.

So I wonder if Raph does have an emotional handicap that led him to conclude that "best student = favorite son".

and Leo probably doesn't realise this is going on.

He probably has noticed that his brothers are not as close to Splinter as he is. However, he could simply deduce it is because their personalities and thus interests are not as similar to that of their sensei/father. If Leo is more into martial arts than the other 3, that could explain the spending more time together easily without leading Leo to think that another brother is afraid Leo is also favorite son.

[Buslady]

There's so much more to Raph than what they can show in the toons. I wish they could show more.
One thing that kinda bugged me in the new movie, Splinter lecturing him on how a good leader is tempered by compassion and humility...okay, so is he saying Raph has no compassion???? The opposite is the truth. He has loads of it.
Now humility.....

anyways.

I think one of Raph's problems, he has all these emotions but unable to act upon them they hit a wall. He can not act upon any natural feelings, maybe that with an ungodly amount of male hormones rushing through him, it binds up and what can he do? It's gotta be hard to control that.
I'm only guessing, I'm not a guy...lol

Knowing that he also has very strong emotions, he is sensitive. Seeing Leo getting most of the attention upset him. Maybe he feels he isn't as worthy of the lessons sensei teaches, Leo picks it up so fast and learns faster where Raph is behind with learning disabilities contributing to his anger? He then is jealous of Leo which keeps him in competition with him. Just another of of my fun theories. Stuff like this happens in school though.

Ya know...the bottom line...sometimes I think ol Raph just needs one good long cry. Let it all out.

[Warhorse]

I think Raph's root for his anger stems from the thought that of all the Turtles and Splinter, he is the only one that actually gets it. That they are the only ones of their kind. And him being the most emotional of the four, he longs to have alot of friends. I think he watches tv and people from the streets having relationships, procreating, succeeding, or failing in their lives, but they at least have options, options Raph knows, that no matter how much he looks at it different angles, he'll never have.

As much as people want to label Raphael as the loner. Seems to me like he's the one Turtle that actually goes out of his way to meet and befriend people. I mean, in retrospec, where would the Turtles be if Raph hadn't thrown his temper, gone off on his own to recouperate and come across Casey Jones? Face it, Raph's biggest flaw was the teams biggest savior!

And can you blame Raph's anger, in that he will not sit down and be content with what he has like the other three. He wants more out of life, and he's in the right to go out and try to get it. There's nothing wrong with a little anger fueling your ambitions!

[Buslady]

Originally Posted by Warhorse

I think Raph's root for his anger stems from the thought that of all the Turtles and Splinter, he is the only one that actually gets it. That they are the only ones of their kind. And him being the most emotional of the four, he longs to have alot of friends. I think he watches tv and people from the streets having relationships, procreating, succeeding, or failing in their lives, but they at least have options, options Raph knows, that no matter how much he looks at it different angles, he'll never have.

As much as people want to label Raphael as the loner. Seems to me like he's the one Turtle that actually goes out of his way to meet and befriend people. I mean, in retrospec, where would the Turtles be if Raph hadn't thrown his temper, gone off on his own to recouperate and come across Casey Jones? Face it, Raph's biggest flaw was the teams biggest savior!

And can you blame Raph's anger, in that he will not sit down and be content with what he has like the other three. He wants more out of life, and he's in the right to go out and try to get it. There's nothing wrong with a little anger fueling your ambitions!

Actually I think his loner thing is like denial. Yeah he says he wants to be alone...bull...he wants to be normal and not be alone, just wants to be normal. Friends, family, everything life could give him but he can't have.

[jenna]

Originally Posted by Warhorse

I think Raph's root for his anger stems from the thought that of all the Turtles and Splinter, he is the only one that actually gets it. That they are the only ones of their kind. And him being the most emotional of the four, he longs to have alot of friends. I think he watches tv and people from the streets having relationships, procreating, succeeding, or failing in their lives, but they at least have options, options Raph knows, that no matter how much he looks at it different angles, he'll never have.

As much as people want to label Raphael as the loner. Seems to me like he's the one Turtle that actually goes out of his way to meet and befriend people. I mean, in retrospec, where would the Turtles be if Raph hadn't thrown his temper, gone off on his own to recouperate and come across Casey Jones? Face it, Raph's biggest flaw was the teams biggest savior!

And can you blame Raph's anger, in that he will not sit down and be content with what he has like the other three. He wants more out of life, and he's in the right to go out and try to get it. There's nothing wrong with a little anger fueling your ambitions!

That is really insightful and I think really true. I don't think he wants to be a loner and makes an effort not to be, but like Buslady says, acts like he would rather be on his own as a defense to not having the friends around him that he really seeks.

[Spawn Guy]

Originally Posted by triplexxx

New Movie: An independent loner trying to make good use of his time while his father has put his sons' crime-fighting days on hiatus and has somewhat neglected him (damn you, Splinter). Takes the family break-up harder than any of the others

So rather than talk with his father and get the "neglect" to stop he exhausts himself so much at night that he does absolutely nothing to do anything about the break up until his brother is in trouble. The Nightwatcher was about as ironically neglectful as Splinter keeping them below ground for their saftey and Leo staying in the jungle to make sure he wouldn't go back a failure.