Batman Volume Four

[The Terror of Death]

I loved the first three volumes but I am a little hesitant about volume four. Is it as good?

[Brodie]

This was the only volume that I actually bought. I had borrowed the other 3 from my friend, and don't get me wrong, I love the Bat-toons. But this was Gotham Knights. Really good characters, Tim as Robin, Nightwing, and so on, and the design changes, however small, were really neat, and they stuck in comic form too (With Batman's non yellow huge bat symbol, and Nightwing's blue and black, although his hair is shorter).

And this volume is what, 25-30, depending where you get it? If you bought the first 3, why not complete the set?

[The Terror of Death]

Originally Posted by Brodie

If you bought the first 3, why not complete the set?

I heard from some people that the quality decreased.

[ZariusTwo]

The quality decreased in season three, where as new style and tone reinvigorated the writers and allowed them to make the show darker and more mature. Get it

[Drtooth]

Are we talking about THE Batman or Batman TAS?

Cuz I completely agree with Zarius on that one... in fact I think season one and two weren't that good either, but season 4 had some nice bite to it.

[Spitfire]

Gotham Knights angered me. It's the FF of Batman if you ask me. The character designs changed for no good reason and look way more cartoony. Cat Women just looks horrid.

And aside from a few good episodes there's alot of really lame ones. Like Batman fighting giant bugs, giant farm animals, and there was another giant something one thrown in there. There was three of them in a row.

Also them added some new villains. Only one of which I liked, Fire Fly. The rest were pretty terrible and that stunt women who rode the rocket was by far the worst of the bunch.

The Super-man crossover episode was so bad I was tempted to turn it off. Super-girl and Bat-girl VS Ivy, Quinn and some lame Super-man villain. I can't tell if it was how annoying their voices were or if it was just bad that made me hate it.

The Season also starts off on a soft note. Quinn and Ivy kidnap Bruce and make him buy them stuff with his credit card. Ugh...there was alot of Ivy in that season.

To me it ripped the dark animation style right off Batman and face lifted it with WBs new style that was coming in at the time.

I personally didn't like it that much. Like I said there's a few episodes I liked but compared to the quality stuff we were getting in the previous volumes I can't help but feel they dropped the ball with this series. Now Batman Beyond that came out good, for a season*And a few minor in between episodes* So I'd pick that up. But if you want to own it all like me then I'd get it. I have everything from the cartoons except the Mystery of Batwoman movie I heard was pretty horrid.

[The Terror of Death]

Originally Posted by Drtooth

Are we talking about THE Batman or Batman TAS?

Cuz I completely agree with Zarius on that one... in fact I think season one and two weren't that good either, but season 4 had some nice bite to it.

I am talking about Gotham Knights.

And thanks spitfire. I am not much of a completist so I guess I'll skip it.

[Spitfire]

Well if you can at least rent it, or watch an episode of two, cause you never know you might end up liking it. I'm really picky that's all.

[Voltron]

I have it. It's not incredibly awful.


I think what really makes or breaks it is that it loses A LOT of that dark feeling the original three had. Batman doesn't play the shadows anymore, he isn't lonely and brooding, either. They did turn VERY cartoony, too.

In compensation, they had darker concepts. Joker's homicidal tendencies were more openly addressed, and people started bleeding.

All in all, it's not the worst thing to ever happen to Batman, but it's nothing to write home about either.

I got it because despite the changes, I believe that TAS is still the most faithful and entertaining incarnation of Bats. I am a huge Bat-Fan, though. So I may be biased.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by Drtooth

Are we talking about THE Batman or Batman TAS?

Batman TAS, first season and second are great, but the third is overrated and the show had really nothing to prove by then, and the episodes did nothing in terms of really pushing the remaining characters further than they were (with the exception of the superb "Riddlers Reform" and "Deep Freeze"), not that it was'nt all bad, it simply was the same-old/same-old. Timm and co got a taste of what they could do with "Mask of the Phantasm" and obviously did'nt want to tone down again unless they had to under network insistence.

GK is fine for me, though some I don't agree with (heck, look at the fact Timm and co wasted a commentary track on "Critters" just to have an MST3K-like stab at it's quality), it has enough great episodes to weed out the cons. "Legends of the Dark Knight", "Over the Edge", "Holiday Nights" and "Mad Love" are the highlights.

[Time Mistress]

I agree with a lot of what Zarius said. The DC cartoon universe is a progression from Batman TAS all the way through JLU. Yes, the animation style is different, more streamlined, but it's the same style used in Superman and JL/JLU. This is just where the change happens. Sure if you watch it back to back with the earlier Batman seasons it can feel strange but once you get used to the new style it's not that big a deal.

As for quality of storytelling, some of the best eps of the whole show come from this season. This is Batman TAS we're talking about, even when it's average it's still better than the majority of cartoons ever made. Critters is the only real stinker of the group and you should be kicking yourself if you haven't seen Mad Love and Over the Edge yet. Holiday Knights, Sins of the Father, Double Talk, Torch Song, Old Wounds, Legends of the Dark Knight, and Girls' Night Out are all well worth watching and I'm sure I'm missing a few more excellent ones. And don't forget to trcnk down the Superman/Batman World's Finest movie which is technically part of this season too.

[DrSpengler]

I thought that Gotham Knights/The New Batman Adventures were more good than bad. The change in character designs can be jarring, but some are definate improvements. The Scarecrow's facelift rocks my socks, as did his voice change (Jeffrey Combs should've been doing him since Day 1). Some aren't so good. The aforementioned Catwoman looks like she could blow away in a stiff breeze, Mad Hatter has turned into some kind of demonic elf and the Riddler has donned his crummy Silver Age spandex which I never liked.

On the bright side, technically, the animation is much more consistent and all-around prettier. They stick with Tokyo Movie Shinsha all the way through, so unlike Batman TAS, you don't chaotically hop from one gorgeous TMS episode to a hideus Akom episode and back again.

Also of note about the animation is that it was done entirely in Japan: direction, storyboards, everything. That's practically unheard of in the world of American animation. Usually when we outsource to Japanese studios, we send storyboards and detailed instructions from an American director. THey let the Japanese have free reign with this series, which actually worked out rather good. There are a few, er, "oddities" that stem from the Japanese anime influences (Batman can leap 10 feet in the air on his own power), but for the most part the season has the most consistent animation and is visually impressive.

As for the stories, it IS a mixed bag. The lows can be horrendous ("Critters" being pain incarnate), while the highs are magnificent ("Mad Love" and "Over the Edge" are darker than just about anything to come out of Batman TAS).

The series also has a few more "comedy relief" episodes than Batman TAS, a trend that would leak into Superman TAS and JLU. I actually thought "Joker's Millions" was hilarious and anybody who can get the stick out of their ass and accept a Batman story that isn't 100% "ZOMG TEH DARKNESS!1!" should like it, too.


The New Batman Adventures is a mixed bag, but for every way it is inferior to Batman TAS it has aspects which are improved upon its predecessor. I'd consider it an essential part of the Batman TAS library, for certain.

Skip "Mystery of the Batwoman", though. Worst finale ever.

[Time Mistress]

Yeah, Mystery of Batwoman is a let down. But Mask of the Phantasm, Subzero and World's Finest are great!

And I agree about the updated Scarecrow. He's so spooky and I love Jeffery Coombs in just about everything he does. If you continue into JLU Franknada4 you''l also get to hear him as the Question.

And the Penguin is back to his classic comic book look in GK, and no longer Danny Devito.

[DrSpengler]

Originally Posted by Time Mistress

And the Penguin is back to his classic comic book look in GK, and no longer Danny Devito.

That was another improvement, right there. I hated the "mutant" look they were forced to give him in order to capitalize on Batman Returns (which came out around the time of Batman TAS).

I also dug Bane's redesign. It was a little "S&M", but I still liked it better than his TAS version. They also kept the same actor for Bane but had him act differently (quieter, more intelligent and more menacing).

Ivy's redesign was pretty good, too. The censors actually let them show some damn leg, for a change and let her look a bit more shapely.

[Drtooth]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

Batman TAS, first season and second are great, but the third is overrated and the show had really nothing to prove by then, and the episodes did nothing in terms of really pushing the remaining characters further than they were (with the exception of the superb "Riddlers Reform" and "Deep Freeze"), not that it was'nt all bad, it simply was the same-old/same-old. Timm and co got a taste of what they could do with "Mask of the Phantasm" and obviously did'nt want to tone down again unless they had to under network insistence.

I was agreeing on you about The Batman(cuz I thought that's what we were talking about.)
I loved Batman TAS, myself. Even though I do agree the Kid's WB series didn't work too well for me. I liked some of it, but well... I hate how the Joker looked like Freakazoid without the mask and hair. And what's up with Cat Woman's blue skin? Is she from Gothem city or Bluffington (Doug's hometown)?

I do say, Batman TAS was one of the most influencial cartoons of the decade (along with Animaniacs). it really showed an action cartoon CAN have action in it. AS much as I love the 80's cartoons, they just lost a lot of bite due to do gooder groups like ACT mucking everythiong about.

[Time Mistress]

Actually it was the 70s that got slapped with all the do-gooder groups, the 80s was the decade that started to get out of the slump and the action toons really took off in the 90s.

[Drtooth]

Indeed it was, but I meant Batman really helped it take off. Without Batman TAS, I don't think the ground would have been broken for shows like X-Men (I know they tried in the 80's to no avail). I meant we actually got to see fighting on gand dramatic scales. Of course, the 70's brought mostly crappy knockoffs of Scooby Doo and the Archies (Considering Scooby Doo's earliest incarnation was a blatant ripoff of the Archies, before they changed it to what we all know today.)

I do amit, 80's was a decade that was action driven (mainly cuz action toys sell well, and that was the point of the decade), but using the classic TMNT as an example, the fighting had to be low keyed, mainly because of afromentioned parental groups. They didn't break free of their rain of terror until the 90's. I feel that cartoons in the 90's got away with quite a bit. Incest refferences in 2 Stupid Dogs (Go to youtube or something and see if they have the Brady bunch parody episode "Family Values") for example.

[ZariusTwo]

[QUOTE=Drtooth;523137]I do amit, 80's was a decade that was action driven (mainly cuz action toys sell well, and that was the point of the decade), but using the classic TMNT as an example, the fighting had to be low keyed, mainly because of afromentioned parental groups. They didn't break free of their rain of terror until the 90's./QUOTE]

A lot of the syndicated 1980's series prove that wrong actually.

[Time Mistress]

Sunbow was really the first to push the envelope. And also Bankin Rass with Thundercats and such. Batman TAS really was the major turning point, but X-Men and Marvel were really doing their own thing in the 90s and not taking cues from TAS that early on. OT TMNT really came in that inbetween period between Sunbow and Batman, right at the start of the Disney Afternoon years when things were more tame for a few years. Of course the Simpsons also helped change the face of American animation to help people see it as more that just for kids which did helped a lot of action toons indirectly.

[Drtooth]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

A lot of the syndicated 1980's series prove that wrong actually.

OOPS! I should have posted that there is indeed a difference between syndication and network. A lot of Syndicated shows were very violent in those days. But that's because there's a sepperate set of principles behind both. For example, Fat Albert did quite a lot of hard core subjects (not to make a pun or anything, but it included pornography) in syndication they couldn't do on CBS.