Image Top Ten

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

All right, first of all, an official disclaimer: I am not a Volume Four hater. I like Volume Four, and I love a lot of its plot aspects (namely Splinter’s decease, Mike’s Styracodon/Triceraton troubles, the tepui Utroms, and April’s nanobot affliction), but if I had to choose between the two, it’d be Image all the way.

Second of all, no hateful replies, please. If you don’t like it, fine. Don’t insult me, and don’t you dare bring my momma into this! I invite you to compose your top ten reasons to prefer Volume 4 to Volume 3. If none of y’all get around to it, maybe I’ll write it myself. (If I can bring myself to do it.)

Okay, now, on to the ten:

1) Action, and plenty of it! While you can’t read only one issue of either volume because of way-long plot arcs, Image had a much faster pace with a lot more conflict. Mirage just seems to build, and build, and build. Which is good, but I'm a more action-oriented kinda guy.

Also, the plots are just so much cooler. Warlord Komodo kidnapping Splinter, Big Tony kidnapping Shadow, Don getting brainjacked by Deathwatch, Raph taking over the Foot Clan, the Triceratons invading Earth, Leatherhead and Dr. X, Lady Shredder and Cheng… in comparison, Volume 4 just seems low-key.

2) Oroku Pimiko, the Shredder’s daughter. This girl is a much better character than Karai. Karai was excellent in Volume 1, but I really don’t think too much of her in 4. Besides, she’s a good gal. Pimiko is bad, kicks butt, and wears a very nice outfit.

3) Character development happens in both volumes, as do injuries and changes. But I prefer Image’s changes. Raph is much better with a hockey mask, eyepatch, or Shredder suit than with a dinosaur mutation makeover. Also, Don is better as a cyborg than a miniature mutant that is occasionally mistaken for an action figure. Not to forget Mike getting published, and Leo losing a hand.

People gripe about all the damage done to the TMNT in Image, but hey—I hate what happened to Raph and Don in Volume 4! And given enough time, Laird will return them to normal… just as the Image crew would’ve done to the boys in Volume 3 if the comic hadn’t been canceled.

4) Raphael, the Shredder. Enough said. That just gives me chills. Plus, it’s entirely fitting that Raph lead the Foot, seeing how he created it in Feudal Japan.

5) Shadow, Mob Princess. I love it. Her dear sweet grandpa is the Godfather, who can’t stand the thought of his dead son’s kid growing up with mutant turtles as uncles. Now, I think this is a lot better story arc for Shadow than all that werewolf jazz in Tales of the TMNT Volume 2.

6) Michelangelo not only sold some poems to Poetry Digest, but he got a whole novel published! Not too crazy that A Rose Among Thorns was a romance novel, but at least the guy’s a published writer! I mean, do we even see Mikey writing in Volume 4? The only time I remember is in Tales #30.

7) The Foot Clan is once again at war with the Turtles, Karai's truce be hanged—and that’s just as it should be. Those Foot dudes make much better enemies than allies. (Not for the TMNT, of course, but it’s a lot more interesting to read for us!)

8 ) The mutagen being unstable and degenerating in the Turtles’ and Leatherhead’s bloodstreams was a stroke of genius! The guys were gradually demutating! (Which would’ve cured Don, Raph, and Leo of their respective injuries, given enough time. Screw whoever was responsible for canning Image.) I'm pretty sure that for a cure, the TMNT would’ve had to go to—guess who?—Warlord Komodo. It makes sense, if you look at the various plot arcs. If you guys are curious as to how this would’ve worked, I can give you my theories.

9) Image Comics gave us some pretty cool crossovers, even though I tend to think they overdid it. We had, what, three or four crossovers in issues #9 through 15? But hey, loved seeing Mako, The Savage Dragon, and best of all, Deathwatch! (Vanguard, however, seemed pointless to me. But I’ll put up with him if it means Deathwatch can make an appearance.)

And I’ll definitely take an Image crossover over another C.O.W.Boys appearance any day.

10) Last, and certainly not least, April O'Neil. No, I'm not complaining about the fact that Volume 4 turned her into one of Kirby’s crystal drawings. Weird, and I'm still getting used to the notion, but it fit into continuity very nicely.

No, I'm here to compliment Image on how they drew April’s hair. Dang, I hated that frizzy moptop. Friggin’ ugly. I mean, since Volume 1 #4, O'Neil had the crappiest hairstyle. (Although, it looked okay in City at War and Shades of Gray.) Her ponytail, on the other hand, was excellent. April was finally a babe! Thank you, Image Comics!

[TristanHuwJones]

Before we all get into this and start directing responses AT people, I'd just like to reinforce what RaphAttack said about keeping it respectful. If you disagree, don't start flaming (as ALL message boards are prone to) each other for their personal opinions. I suggest we make our responses clear if they are directed at someone else here and not make it personal. Volume 3 and Volume 4 have become hot topics of late and it seems every time a thread like this is started, it starts to deteriorate, so let's make this one one for the ages!

Originally Posted by RaphAttack

1)

While I think everyone can agree that it was a much faster pace, I personally look back on the Image series as sometimes being a bit "too much at once". Many of the plot ideas you listed are very cool ideas and suitable to the TMNT universe, but whether they're coolER is a matter of one's point of view. I'm not the biggest fan of cyber-Don, but I think that was because it all happened too soon and was dragged out longer than necessary. Though I did like Leo's nightmare about the cyber-symbiote. Warlord Komodo was a cool character, and while I liked the Mafia involvement, I'm still a bit on the fence about the execution of it. Lady Shredder was a cool idea, and I dug Cheng as a character, but Lady Shredder is a bit like the Oroku Yoshi Shredder, which I think, personally, is cooler. In the grander scheme of things, I think the Leatherhead and Dr. X storyline is probably something we would have seen happen in Tales anyway, given the direction Dan was leaning with the character back in the day and the Triceraton invasion, though maybe not quite as 'public' as Image, still happened before Vol.3 in Vol.2, and I think that if Vol.2 had've been expanded further, we probably would have seen more.

Another angle worth considering is that there's been far more character development in Vol.4 than there was in Vol.3, in just about the same amount of comics, and we've had decent dosages of action between each, it's just that a lot of the story elements these particular sequences revolve around haven't been completely tied up yet, and from the looks of things, the action was certainly set to amp up considerably post #28 (based on the solicitations as well as the direction of the stories). Again, just my 2 cents, not Gospell!

Originally Posted by RaphAttack

2) Oroku Pimiko, the Shredder’s daughter.

This one I have to disagree with. We just as little about Karai in the COMICS as we do Pimiko. Sure she's saturated the 2k3 series, but that took it's own course. To me, Pimiko felt like another product of the times. You remember how the X-men looked at the time? It was all Jim Lee and muscle-bound babes in lingerie. Her only real depth was that she was supposedly the Shredder's daughter, which, to be honest, even as I read it as it came out, I didn't completely buy into.
The other thing worth noting, and going back to what I said about Karai, is that really, we don't know anything about her, except that she had a daughter and that she's highly regarded amongst the Foot (of Japan at least). Her involvement in Vol.4 has been shadowy at best and I don't think it's entirely fair to judge her until her core story -- that being the Necronomiconesque books -- has come into play.

Originally Posted by RaphAttack

3) Character development happens in both volumes, as do injuries and changes. But I prefer Image’s changes.

Again, totally subject to opinion. I personally prefer seeing Don at a size ready to take on Cobra Commander than as the Cyborg, and while I did dig the execution of the Shredder Raph, I wasn't so much a fan of the hockey mask look. I'm sure as time went on (in fact I'm positive) that all wounds would have healed, just the same as we know Raph and Don would have been returned to normal at some point in time (they both have to right? It's there in Tales!). I think from a story point of view there's so much more that can be done with a Mini-Don than the Cyborg one, considering the avenues Image already drove down with it. But again, this is my preference.

Originally Posted by RaphAttack

People gripe about all the damage done to the TMNT in Image, but hey—I hate what happened to Raph and Don in Volume 4! And given enough time, Laird will return them to normal… just as the Image crew would’ve done to the boys in Volume 3 if the comic hadn’t been canceled.

Exactly! Not everyone is going to like everything!

Originally Posted by RaphAttack

4) Raphael, the Shredder. Enough said.

I'll agree, it was a risky choice, but handled very well, and we know it was never going to last. It would be interesting to see the impact this would have had on them as a family unit had it been incorporated into Tales or TMNT Vol.4.

Originally Posted by RaphAttack

5) Shadow, Mob Princess. I love it.

Again, you're judging something that hasn't finished up yet. But what if we got it the other way around? What if it was the Image series that had her Grandfather or father as a werewolf and Tales presenting her getting caught up in the mob? Don't get me wrong, I liked the involvement of the mafia, only as I said, I think the execution was a bit iffy. I think it's because they made Shadow a DIRECT mafia link. I would have liked it more had she been USED by the mafia because of something Casey might have been involved in, or her bio-parents might have been involved in.

Originally Posted by RaphAttack

6) Michelangelo not only sold some poems to Poetry Digest, but he got a whole novel published!

Volume 1 he was writing things if I recall. An entire issue is written by him I think (don't have my collection handy at the mo). But, look at what Mike's been doing in Vol.4 -- kinda makes getting published seem kinda mundane don't you think?

Originally Posted by RaphAttack

7) The Foot Clan is once again at war with the Turtles, Karai's truce be hanged—and that’s just as it should be.

True, but I don't think anyone's really been given a fair chance to play as villains, outside of the Purple Dragons in the animated series and the Triceratons in Vol.1. And the Foot really only came back into play when the series was given the ax.
There were some sinister happenings going down as Vol.4 went on hiatus too, and I'm sure we would've seen some Foot Vs TMNT action once the Karai story got in gear.

Originally Posted by RaphAttack

8 ) The mutagen being unstable and degenerating in the Turtles’ and Leatherhead’s bloodstreams was a stroke of genius!

This was another good idea presented by Image, and is something yet to be dealt with in anyway in the Mirage series... yet...

Originally Posted by RaphAttack

9) Image Comics gave us some pretty cool crossovers, even though I tend to think they overdid it.

I'm with you in that I think they overdid it a little. I was never a big Image reader before hand, nor have been since. I actually loathe Spawn and can't really come at Savage Dragon, though I have heard only really good things about Dragon (it's just something that never really interested me). I'm sure for fans of the characters, it was a pretty big deal, but they just don't have the universal recognition a cameo by say Batman might have had. As an outsider they felt "dropped" in, and I didn't want to have to go and buy Image books I wasn't reading/collecting at the time to figure out who they were.

Vol. 4 however created it's own superheroes and used those from Vol.1 (with a little explanation as to who they were for new readers), which I prefer from a reading point of view.

Originally Posted by RaphAttack

And I’ll definitely take an Image crossover over another C.O.W.Boys appearance any day.

That would depend on who was working on the book for me

Originally Posted by RaphAttack

10) Last, and certainly not least, April O'Neil.

This is the point I feel may break this thread, let's keep our **** together peeps !

Originally Posted by RaphAttack

No, I'm here to compliment Image on how they drew April’s hair.

I dunno, Vol.3's art was a bit more hit and miss in terms of consistency if you ask me. I love the way the Turtles are drawn, and the Triceratons, the Foot, the Shredder, and so many other things, but the humans in Vol.3 always bugged me. I think Jim had a great looking April in his hands when she grew her hair back for her appearance as Nobody and - once again - she's a dangling thread, so she may win you over yet! Kinda had that OT feel to it!

Curious, what about Vol.4 did you prefer over Vol.3 though?

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Mikey's plot is the best action the turtle in the orange (okay, I know they all wear red in the comics, but to me, they all wear a different color) has ever gotten in any comic in Mirage, Image, or Archie. I think it's the best plot in Vol. 4, too, and I hope it gets resolved. Mikey always seems to get an alien girlfriend, too. Plus fighting alongside Triceratons... wow.

The Utroms landing on Earth. I knew this would happen eventually. Finally, the TMNT get to walk around. I love that this finally happened, cause really, with practically every other comic hero/heroine walking around in broad daylight, I was kinda hoping it'd happen to the Turtles eventually. Plus, it opens up so many new plots... just like it did in Vol. 4.

Donny with the Utroms. They work extremely well together, as they both prefer peace to violence, don't like killing their enemies, are incredibly smart, and are scientists.

Splinter dying. Like the Utroms landing on Earth, I knew it would happen eventually. I like that he died in bed (figuratively) and not in battle. This, too, opens up a lot of possibilities--the biggest being the Turtles going their own ways.

April. While I don't particularly like the crystal/drawing thing, it ties in excellently with old Vol. 1 stuff. Also, I always wondered why Baxter didn't kill her in Vol. 2, and just what happened when he stabbed/injected her with that needle appendage thing. And this version of nanobots is a lot better than Nano in the 2K3 cartoon.

Professor Honeycutt returns! Yippee!

The Mirage artwork is usually better, except for the humans. I think Fosco drew humans better than Lawson does.

THIS is what I prefer of Volume 4 to Volume 3. There might be one or two other things, but these are the biggies.

Finally, I'm glad that Tristian realises I'm not bashing Laird's work on Volume 4 here. I'm just saying what about Vol. 3 I preferred to what's considered "canon."

[Andrew NDB]

I think it would've been really classy of TPTB if they'd offered to let Gary work on an issue or two of Tales. He's mentioned to me he'd love to work on TMNT again.

Very little I don't like about the Image series. I think if they'd had Liefield/Jim Lee-calibre art on the book to go with it (which was probably what Eastman and Laird were hoping when they passed it to Erik), the TMNT comic book scene might be very different today.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

I'd love a chance to talk with Gary Carlson or Erik Larsen. Do they have websites or forums where I could pester them with TMNT-related questions?

[Andrew NDB]

Gary can be reached off of this page : http://bigbangcomics.com/about_big_b...mics.html#gary

Odds are he'll respond to you. Great guy, total class act.

Erik Larsen can be a bit of a prick and admitted he never even read any of the Mirage TMNT prior or even beyond his TMNT crossovers and taking the reins from Mirage... so unless you want to ask him Savage Dragon questions, be prepared for non-answers. He routinely shows up for questions on the Image message board for Savage Dragon.

[twopinacoladas]

I have always thought of getting the image books and finishing vol 2, but havent gotten around to it. I should look on ebay and see if I can get a decent deal sometime. Some ideas seem good, others I dont know if I would care for them, I guess I didnt really care about getting them as they are not concidered TMNT continuity but I am sure it can fit in even with all the mishappenings I have read about.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by twopinacoladas

I have always thought of getting the image books and finishing vol 2, but havent gotten around to it. I should look on ebay and see if I can get a decent deal sometime. Some ideas seem good, others I dont know if I would care for them, I guess I didnt really care about getting them as they are not concidered TMNT continuity but I am sure it can fit in even with all the mishappenings I have read about.

Volume 2 or Volume 3 (Image)? Volume 2 is totally in canon, even though the final issue (#13) makes the previous 4 or 5 or so issues not having happened. Or something.

And the thing with Volume 3 with me is... it was in continuity. We were told by Mirage, Kevin, Laird, everyone that it was in continuity. That we're told now, today, it isn't in continuity is a retcon. As such, it sits in good company beside such excellent stories as "Halls of Lost Legends," "The River," "The Ring," and others as stories Laird -- allegedly -- no longer considers in continuity but, at the time, were very much presented as being in continuity.

[twopinacoladas]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Volume 2 or Volume 3 (Image)? Volume 2 is totally in canon, even though the final issue (#13) makes the previous 4 or 5 or so issues not having happened. Or something.

And the thing with Volume 3 with me is... it was in continuity. We were told by Mirage, Kevin, Laird, everyone that it was in continuity. That we're told now, today, it isn't in continuity is a retcon. As such, it sits in good company beside such excellent stories as "Halls of Lost Legends," "The River," "The Ring," and others as stories Laird -- allegedly -- no longer considers in continuity but, at the time, were very much presented as being in continuity.

I meant collect the few issues of vol 2 I am missing, #1, 9, 11, and 12; also meant to start finding the image books, I have always passed by them when I have had a chance to buy them, I wanted to get the Mirage books first. Yeah I can see what you mean, I ordered the first 6 off milehighcomics as well as a few later books (only ones they had and half off sale ). I will see what else I can hunt down in town then leave the rest for ebay. Although www.ninjaturtles.com has 7 and 8 that I might get from them they used to have them all.