Is TMNT still too tied to Vol. I?

[Darkravager]

Let me begin by saying that the whole reason I'm here on this site is because I read some of the volume I stuff and it blew me away.

I've tracked down some of the Vol I stuff, and I plan to get more. However, I've also gotten a lot of the recent volume of Tales as well. After reading through them, I have a question: Does anyone else think that TMNT is too slavishly tied to the events of Volume I?

I mean, most other comic properties build on the great stories of the past in order to deepen and grow the mythos. It kinda seems to me that TMNT started off with a bang, and has been spinning it's wheels for the last 20 years. Don't get me wrong, I love it, but it just seems as though everything ties back in with Vol. I only.

So, opinions, comments?

[Raph's Girl]

There's several stories set in Vol 4 and there's some upcoming Tales issues that are set in Vol 2 so no I don't think they focus on Vol 1 alot.

[turkishproverb]

I can see his point though, Many of the aspects of V4 are DIRECT continuations fo V1, rather than progressions etc.

[Roseangelo]

Originally Posted by turkishproverb

I can see his point though, Many of the aspects of V4 are DIRECT continuations fo V1, rather than progressions etc.

Yeah, I'm actually getting really tired of the complete non-progression of the overall TMNT story. I love Vol. 1 for what it is, but I reallyreally wish the story could move beyond it. And no, Vol. 4 doesn't count.

[Mr._Mutant_Man]

Aren't there a lot of aspects of volume 2 too, though? When I first started reading the comics I didn't really have any intention of seeking out volume 2 comics, but after reading volume 4 online I'm curious to see what happened in those comics too.

[Cowabunga Carl]

I've only read volume 4, parts of 1 and 3, and some of the current Tales of TMNT. Personaly I think there is a balance with all the volumes in Tales. My fav issue is #43.

[CyberCubed]

I think the problem is the Mirage TMNT comics have no real villains. How many Mirage villains are there who aren't one-shots or are still alive? Shredder is dead, Baxter is dead, Karai isn't a villain anymore, the Triceratons aren't really villains anymore, Leatherhead is good, Rat King is more of a spirit now, and all we really have is Savanti Romero now.

Why do you think the two cartoons and Archie series had to create all these new mutants, aliens, and other characters? There are very few major villains in the Mirage universe.

Hell, the 4kids cartoon had to create Hun and Bishop, among other characters. The original cartoon had to create Bebop, Rocksteady, Krang and all the other mutants. The Archie comics did the same thing.

There are NO major villains in the Mirage TMNT comics anymore, which is why Volume 4 turned out the way it did. That's the problem with TMNT going in a new direction. What new villains has Mirage created since Volume 1 that weren't one-shots?

[turkishproverb]

Well, not to defend it too much, but the psycho-warriors from V4 would qualify (alternate demension guys)

[PAAATE]

You have a point, but

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

the Triceratons aren't really villains anymore

I don't think you can say that for sure just yet..

[Mr._Mutant_Man]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

I think the problem is the Mirage TMNT comics have no real villains. How many Mirage villains are there who aren't one-shots or are still alive? Shredder is dead, Baxter is dead, Karai isn't a villain anymore, the Triceratons aren't really villains anymore, Leatherhead is good, Rat King is more of a spirit now, and all we really have is Savanti Romero now.

Why do you think the two cartoons and Archie series had to create all these new mutants, aliens, and other characters? There are very few major villains in the Mirage universe.

Hell, the 4kids cartoon had to create Hun and Bishop, among other characters. The original cartoon had to create Bebop, Rocksteady, Krang and all the other mutants. The Archie comics did the same thing.

There are NO major villains in the Mirage TMNT comics anymore, which is why Volume 4 turned out the way it did. That's the problem with TMNT going in a new direction. What new villains has Mirage created since Volume 1 that weren't one-shots?

Was Karai ever really a villain? Maybe in other versions of the turtles, but in the comics she seemed kind of neutral. If I remember correctly she did have a bit of a conflict with the Turtles at first but then they made that deal and they seemed to work together okay after that.

[Raph's Girl]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

all we really have is Savanti Romero now

Savanti was defeated in Tales of the TMNT vol 2 with the help of the Wild West C.O.W. Boys of Moo Mesa. Well technically his ego defeated him but still.

TMNT villians:
Shredder - Killed in the first issue by Donatello, cloned, killed again by Leonardo, became a freakish shark thing - killed by Casey, Baby Shadow, and Splinter
Savanti Romero - Only true reacurring villian. His own ego defeated him
Savanti Juliet - Killed by Renet
Rat King - Killed in his first appearance, his spirit helped Splinter in CAW, and then he was defeated and dethroned and replaced by Splinter who's the current Rat King...
Triceratons - After several several defeats and the eventual overthrow of Zandramon lead to the Triceratons eventually becoming crazed fans of the TMNT to the point that they've made their own version of the TMNT animated series....which I'd love to see... *L*
Complete Carnage - Leonardo will eventually kill him sometime in the future in revenge for Carnage killing Radical.
Baxter Stockman - Donatello kills him in Vol 4 after keeping him somewhat alive for some strange purposes for years....

Leatherhead was never a villian in Mirage
Karai was never a villian

[Ninjinister]

We need Diamondback and Copperhead.

[turkishproverb]

Originally Posted by Raph's Girl

Baxter Stockman - Donatello kills him in Vol 4 after keeping him somewhat alive for some strange purposes for years....

He explains why as he kills him. Don couldn't believe such intelligence could be so irredeemably evil, and so hoped to use him for something good someday.

[TristanHuwJones]

Originally Posted by The S

We need Diamondback and Copperhead.

Both have become something more interesting. Since Razorback will be hitting the comics first, Diamondback has been renamed. The Diamondback in #36 will be someone altogether different. The original arc and model we had in mind for Copperhead is being used for another character who will be making a BIG entrance. The core focus behind my next Tales issue is to begin addressing the villain situation. If I get the opportunity to write more then that'll be where I put my energies -- villains. And good stories of course!

Don't forget, you've also got Murph's three mystics, who, if all goes well, should be appearing again at least once...

These are comic books too remember, not all deaths are permanent!

[Andrew NDB]

First I'd even throw the question out... why even end volume 1? I don't see any reason TMNT, Vol. 4 #29 couldn't just be TMNT #104, but whatever.

If I had to venture an answer to this, it all comes back to City at War, and the kind of book-closing it represented on one chapter of the Turtles' lives. With Volume 2, we saw some attempt at showing us the next chapter... but due to one thing or another (a big part of things being Mirage Publishing closing down around then, what with the floods and all), it never really quite got off the ground or gelled in a way that really "hooked" readers.

Volume 4 tosses the angle at us fairly quickly off the bat, "What if aliens landed on Earth and the TMNT no longer had to hide in the shadows?" as a springboard. I'm not certain that's wholly been explored yet as an angle.

[Cowabunga Carl]

I've been reading vol 4 today and have to say this topic has been on my mind.

Vol 1 seemed more eposodic, like each story was an issue or two. I know RTNY & CAW were more but each story seemed somewhat seperate.

Vol 4 is one huge story. It has been one long continuse story and refferances past events. I don't think it is stuck though.

[Ninjinister]

Originally Posted by TristanHuwJones

Both have become something more interesting. Since Razorback will be hitting the comics first, Diamondback has been renamed. The Diamondback in #36 will be someone altogether different. The original arc and model we had in mind for Copperhead is being used for another character who will be making a BIG entrance. The core focus behind my next Tales issue is to begin addressing the villain situation. If I get the opportunity to write more then that'll be where I put my energies -- villains. And good stories of course!

Don't forget, you've also got Murph's three mystics, who, if all goes well, should be appearing again at least once...

These are comic books too remember, not all deaths are permanent!

Sounds interesting!

[jerome]

I'd have to say they are a little too tied to vol. I.

I mean why can't we have a turtles comic where the turtles exist like batman or superman etc. Not every batman story is tied to some idea that Bob Kane put in a book some 70 years ago so why do the turtles always have to fall into the mirage timeline?

I've never been too sure about how i felt about the turtles growing older and having actual deaths etc...why can't they just be like bruce wayne and never age or whatever. I feel that since the turtles' fates have been written (sorta) there is a need to place every adventure somewhere in the mirage-averse. I feel this sorta bogs down the freedom of some writers.

If Jeph Loeb had to lock down exactly when and where and how old batman was during Hush would it have been as free to do the things it did?

I mean some things in comics have to show the passing of time. Dick Grayson got old and turned into night wing, Jason Todd died, Tim Drake became the 3rd (and best robin) but since then nothing has changed. Nightwing is still mid 20's, Bruce Wayne is still late 30's (i think...maybe early 40's) and Tim Drake is still in Highschool. And Jason Todd came back to life but that is neither here nor there...

In short i just think if turtles storied didn't have to fit into a definitive timeline we might get bigger (maybe better...maybe not) stories...

[Roseangelo]

Originally Posted by jerome

In short i just think if turtles storied didn't have to fit into a definitive timeline we might get bigger (maybe better...maybe not) stories...

I so agree with this. I would really love for a brand new TMNT series that simply focuses on creating a profitable comic with the goal of drawing and maintaining readers. Good art (preferably color), good stories (that have mini-arcs within larger arcs), and a willingness to change things if readership drops.

[TristanHuwJones]

See this goes back to what I said a while ago about putting dates in comics. As soon as you put a date in a newspaper or anything like that, you get readers who cling to that date tenaciously. The most common response I got to #36 was to the fact that they're using cell phones, because cell phones (at least the ones depicted) didn't exist in whatever time frame City at War was set in.

I know a lot of people hold the TMNT dates as gospel, but they end up redundant as years go by. They're good to keep track of what story takes place when in relation to others, but I think now we're at the point where you're better off alluding to dates rather than stating them (ie; twenty years ago, two months ago, then, now, etc.).

You go by dates and particular events then you get horrendous irregularities (ie: Flash Thompson going to Vietnam). I think the only particular events that have been handled well in comics have been the September 11th terrorist attacks in Amazing Spiderman and World War 2 in just about everything.