The lack of fight scenes

[CyberCubed]

Ever notice that when you read an issue, and actually try to keep track of the "fight scenes," they usually last no more than 2-3 pages?

Obviously there are exceptions when an entire issue is one big long fight, or issues where there are continuous fight scenes, but overall, there isn't as much as one might think.

You don't really think about this unless you're purposely trying to keep track, but there's really a lack of real fight scenes in many issues, and most only go on for 2-3 pages.

[Shred87]

I think the fight scenes were about the right legnth.. I'm more of a dialouge guy myself and I personally wouldn't want to go through stretches of 6,7,8,9 pages of a fight scene..I'd rather see the story advance. What volume or title are you referring to though?

[Cipher]

Obviously the series becomes less and less action-oriented until it's a moot point.

But honestly, none (or very few) of the artists to work on the book were ever really capable of drawing fluid, cinematic fight scenes. We got ones that are serviceable enough for the story in "Return to New York" and "City at War," but that's about it. If it's going to be lukewarm, we might as well breeze by it in three pages anyway.

To be fair, I've seen very few American artists as a whole who can actually make fight scenes engaging.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by Shred87

I think the fight scenes were about the right legnth.. I'm more of a dialouge guy myself and I personally wouldn't want to go through stretches of 6,7,8,9 pages of a fight scene..I'd rather see the story advance. What volume or title are you referring to though?

A large chunk of Volume 2, Volume 4, and even Tales have very little fight scenes per issue.

Obviously there are exceptions here.

[Shred87]

Originally Posted by Cipher

To be fair, I've seen very few American artists as a whole who can actually make fight scenes engaging.

Interesting... can you give an example of a fight scene that you think was well done? I'd be interested in looking at it for comparison

[DrSpengler]

Fight scenes, by their nature, tend to decompress the story and eat up page space with wordless action, making the comics read quicker. Fight scenes tend not to progress the story as well as dialogue sequences and tend to just feel like filler when they drone on for more than 4 or 5 pages.

Case in point would be Tales (Vol. 2) #57. There's an 8 page fight scene in the middle of that comic and its just heinously dull. Only so many ways Lawson can draw a Turtle kicking a guy, but then to stretch it out for 8 pages is just overkill.


And you mentioned American comic artists not being good at drawing fight scenes, Cipher, and I'm curious to know what the alternative is. Japanese manga artists?

Personally, I'm not much of a fan of 20 page, decompressed fight scenes where entire pages can can be nothing but panels of characters' legs twitching or opponents staring at each other. It's described as being more "cinematic", but comics aren't movies and decompressing the action to that extent really wastes the experience. I paid $3.99 for 22 pages of pictures and words, after all.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by DrSpengler

Fight scenes, by their nature, tend to decompress the story and eat up page space with wordless action, making the comics read quicker. Fight scenes tend not to progress the story as well as dialogue sequences and tend to just feel like filler when they drone on for more than 4 or 5 pages.

But at the same time, anyone reading an action comic or superhero comic expects fight scenes and they *should* be there and done well.

Most people don't buy superhero comics never expecting the hero to throw a punch at all for multiple issues.

Otherwise might as well be the same as the old 1970's Superfriends TV show where Batman/Superman were never allowed to actually punch a villain.

[DrSpengler]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

But at the same time, anyone reading an action comic or superhero comic expects fight scenes and they *should* be there and done well.

Most people don't buy superhero comics never expecting the hero to throw a punch at all for multiple issues.

Otherwise might as well be the same as the old 1970's Superfriends TV show where Batman/Superman were never allowed to actually punch a villain.

Not saying fight scenes aren't necessary, just that they're only part of the equation. I don't view a 4-5 page fight scene in a comic as not being enough, personally.

Reading most modern comics, the fight scenes and the dialogue scenes tend to be more fused now than ever before. Superheroes are always talking while they're throwing punches for 20 pages straight, which is more preferable than 10 ore more pages of Dragonball Z style twitching, glaring and soundless karate.

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by DrSpengler

And you mentioned American comic artists not being good at drawing fight scenes, Cipher, and I'm curious to know what the alternative is. Japanese manga artists?

I hate to sound like some kind of weeaboo, as the only manga I still come back to are Dragon Ball and Hellsing, but honestly, yeah.

For whatever else is wrong with the Japanese slant on comics, they know how to convey action very well. The two I've just mentioned are terrible perpetrators of minor movement and eye-twitching panels, but it works. You get a sense of choreography, continuity of movement (as in in-between motions), and amazing art. I don't know if it's their poses, or their use of lines and whatnot, but you get every sense of build-up and impact. And you get reactions to it. That's what makes a fight scene interesting. I suppose a lot of panels are "wasted" that way, but when they read that fluidly, I can take my time going over them and enjoy it. I feel like the characters' actions actually take time, and that's important. I hope that's an approach that slowly seeps into the Western industry.

It's when you get to the American standard of having Batman pose for an unrelated punch or two that anything longer than a few pages becomes a waste of space. Because at that point there's no continuity to it. It's filler and you only want to get back to the real meat.

So if the Turtles are going to go by that "Here's a punch. Here's a kick, sort of," standard, then it's a blessing that they keep the fighting short.

Originally Posted by DrSpengler

Reading most modern comics, the fight scenes and the dialogue scenes tend to be more fused now than ever before. Superheroes are always talking while they're throwing punches for 20 pages straight.

Which is completely ridiculous looking and distractingly stupid. I'd rather have the dialogue be engaging on its own, and the fight scenes be engaging on their own. Or, barring that, leave the dialogue for moments that make sense and skip over the boring fight scenes in a few pages, which is what TMNT (thank god) did most of the time.

Originally Posted by DrSpengler

I paid $3.99 for 22 pages of pictures and words, after all.

I suppose that's another thing. Japanese comics come in the form of anthology magazines or bound volumes, so it allows for more decompressed scenes without leaving the reader unsatisfied. Personally, I'd strongly argue for that format stateside too.

[Andrew NDB]

Kevin Eastman is the king of fight scene layouts. TMNT Vol. 1 #21 ftw -- that's how it's done.

[discordiatookie]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Kevin Eastman is the king of fight scene layouts. TMNT Vol. 1 #21 ftw -- that's how it's done.

What he said. Just take a look at my sig - its taken from said issue. To me, the timing is perfect. Plus, the Leo one shot and issue 10 (vol 1) are my favourite 'action' issues. But then the issue after that, no action but so amazing. That's the thing with the turtles to me - I don't need a fight in every issue, as long as there's a great story being told.

[DrSpengler]

I just can't view manga-style action as being a superior alternative.

Lawson attempted decompressed manga-style storytelling with "The Brain Thief" and that was uniformly awful and overpriced for the amount of story and actual content we were getting.

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by DrSpengler

Lawson attempted decompressed manga-style storytelling with "The Brain Thief" and that was uniformly awful and overpriced for the amount of story and actual content we were getting.

I was thinking about bringing that up. That's not decompressed in a way that preserves fluidity at all. Lawson, although I like him overall, is terrible at movement. Terrible at it; always has been.

Every single shot of Don running there is unnecessary and disconnected. "Here's a hallway. Okay, here's another hallway. See how he's posed like he's running?" There's no sense of motion or direction in those drawings. But there is a way to make it work.

And even if it had worked well, I understand the concern in paying $3.99 for something with that many atmospheric pages/panels. Which is why I said maybe the way comics are sold in Japan simply allows for more of that.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Cipher

Lawson, although I like him overall, is terrible at movement. Terrible at it; always has been.

Well... this is Lawson art, too:



Of course, that's with the benefit of Eastman inks and layouts.

[DrSpengler]

Originally Posted by Cipher

Which is why I said maybe the way comics are sold in Japan simply allows for more of that.

I can compromise at that.

I think Lawson has a good artistic grasp of posture and dynamic action, if not so much pacing and narrative flow between panels.

Another factor is who is inking him. When he's inking himself, his art is flatter than a Hanna Barbara cartoon and that goes a long way in making it feel unnatural and lifeless.

When he has some serious duo-tones and *good* inking, his action choreography tends to stand out a bit better.

But that's not to excuse his contemporary style as being part of the problem. You can only reduce character designs down geometrically *so* much before they basically become a collection of two-dimensional shapes. Lawson's contemporary style straddles that line if not outright crossing it.

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Well... this is Lawson art, too:



Of course, that's with the benefit of Eastman inks and layouts.

Even then it's a very tiny, breezed over part of that page though. And to be honest, I'm not sure if having lots of little motion panels are the solution. It looks like a story-board break down. That kind of reads like slow motion to me (and that's exactly what Frank Miller used it for back on DKR). I think the sense of movement that really grabs me lies in giving larger panels continuity and impact, motion lines to imply speed and movement without necessarily showing them, reactions, etc. I suppose it's kind of hard to explain here. But I can say that, while some of the "Return to New York" bits come close, I've rarely seen it done to a really jaw-dropping level in an American comic.

Maybe I'm not explaining myself well enough. Or maybe we just have different philosophies on our sequential art. Ninety percent of the time I prefer American comics to manga anyway, but it's just something I've noticed.

But that's not to excuse his contemporary style as being part of the problem. You can only reduce character designs down geometrically *so* much before they basically become a collection of two-dimensional shapes. Lawson's contemporary style straddles that line if not outright crossing it.

I actually don't think it has all that much to do with his new style either. You can have strong action scenes with a simple style. I just think that his movement and action has always been his weakest point, all the way back to his earliest work. And like I said, I'm not quite enthralled with the state-side approach to fight scenes in the first place.

And again, none of this is to knock Lawson or the series in general. I really enjoy both. Just things I've noticed/lingering thoughts.

[Oniri]

The japanese manga do have a great sense of movement, but (as a manga fan) I can say that they're treatment of a fight scene can get really old really fast. There is a lack of proper timing between fighting and plot. I always thought TMNT had a great balance of storytelling and was glad to see the fight scenes pretty brief.

In a manga, a fight would go on for 4-5 chapters. Depending on the quality of the manga, it would be either a lot of random and pretty much on needed monologue between strikes (I personally wouldn't monologue while getting punched in the face) or pure movements. So you would either get no plot in a single manga volume or a very rushed character introductions.

I understand what you mean about the action and it would be nice to have it better flushed out in America. I just feel that there are very few artists that hasn't made some kind of sacrifice between plot and action and neither the Japanese or the Americans have quite gotten that mix right .