Why didn't Next Mutation use any TMNT villains...?

*CyberCubed* · 09-15-2012, 10:53 PM

...besides Shredder and the Foot? One thing that bothered me about the show is all the villains felt like they belonged to another show, as if they weren't TMNT villains.

Dragon Lord was obviously very Power Rangers, but even Bonesteel, Silver, Vam Mi and Dr. Quease all felt like they weren't quite TMNT characters. Sure Silver probably felt the closest being a talking ape, but not quite.

Instead of Dr. Quease we could have gotten Baxter Stockman. And why didn't they bring in Leatherhead or Rat King? Or even Krang? It's really odd.

*Cowabunga Carl* · 09-16-2012, 12:01 AM

I think it really boiled down to why retread old ground. Seriously though, why would you want to just redo what had been done. I actually give them props for trying to be different. I think there were a lot of things going against the show from the get go. Original characters I feel was one of the lesser problems.

*CyberCubed* · 09-16-2012, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Hob

I think it really boiled down to why retread old ground. Seriously though, why would you want to just redo what had been done. I actually give them props for trying to be different. I think there were a lot of things going against the show from the get go. Original characters I feel was one of the lesser problems.

Using familiar characters in live-action would have made plenty of sense. It would make people more interested in the show to see takes on classic villains and it would feel more like a TMNT show. Remember we've never seen a live-action Baxter, Leatherhead, Rat King or Krang.

Shredder was written out by the second episode, and we didn't see a single familiar TMNT villain for the rest of the show. That's when the series lost its identity.

**Jester** · 09-16-2012, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

That's when the series lost its identity.

Some would argue that's what gave the show its identity, seeing as how they were original to that universe.

I agree with Hob, props to NM for trying something different and bringing in new characters. Why do we have to rehash the same 10 or so characters all the time?

*Cowabunga Carl* · 09-16-2012, 12:23 AM

If they had gone with live action versions of established characters people would have cried foul when they weren't like the FW show. You have to remember this came out not that long after the cartoon stopped. It didn't want to be seen as a continuation of the cartoon but its own thing.

There were plans to bring Casey, April, and Shredder into more important roles in season 2.

**Jester** · 09-16-2012, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Hob

It didn't want to be seen as a continuation of the cartoon but its own thing.

Well.....some assume, and there is evidence to back it up (and also stuff that torpedoes this theory) that the NM universe is an offshoot of the movies.

*Cowabunga Carl* · 09-16-2012, 12:27 AM

Yeah I like it as a continuation of the movie universe. I view it as such.

**Jester** · 09-16-2012, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Hob

Yeah I like it as a continuation of the movie universe. I view it as such.

I kinda do too, the biggest hurdle is Super Shredder.

*Cowabunga Carl* · 09-16-2012, 12:43 AM

See I just ignore that part. In all honesty after they defeat Tokka and Rahzar I tune out. The Super Shredder bit I just imagine as normal Shredder and call it good.

*zkarlette* · 09-16-2012, 12:54 AM

The show woudn't be the same without Bonesteel.

**Jester** · 09-16-2012, 12:55 AM

I'll admit thought, one of the better episodes of NM brings Shredder back.

*Cowabunga Carl* · 09-16-2012, 01:02 AM

I really liked Sliver.When I was working on a fan fic/comic one of the stories I was thinking of was reworking him into a crime family of mutated Apes. Honestly I'd kind of like IDW to try to rework some of these guys and make them fit in the new comic.

*Zulithe* · 09-16-2012, 01:09 AM

I tried watching the pilot episode on youtube yesterday... if they'd used more familiar characters I might have given it more of a chance. But IMO it was pretty bad :/

**Jester** · 09-16-2012, 01:45 AM

You know, the use of "unknown characters" could almost be another flag for NM being inside the movie continuity. I mean, the movies had Shredder, the Foot, and then unknown characters in the 3 movies. Heck, even TMNT has the Foot and more unknown villains. Why are we acting like the use of characters new to the NM universe is unprecedented or a hindrance. It may be the one strength NM has.

*Powder* · 09-16-2012, 02:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jester

Some would argue that's what gave the show its identity, seeing as how they were original to that universe.

I agree with Hob, props to NM for trying something different and bringing in new characters. Why do we have to rehash the same 10 or so characters all the time?

Yeah a big part of why I love the show is that it had a unique cast of villains. I'm glad it had one. They were designed to be goofy by default, which is why they worked. Shredder, for example, who was already portrayed as this hellish badass elsewhere, was turned into a joke by their lesser grade actors poor costumes. The new ones though, there was no basis for comparison. You took 'em as they were & liked 'em, as you didn't know what you were missing by having seen them in an already existing universe. Had they brought in Rat King or something, he'd have been corny as hellllllll.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Hob

I really liked Sliver. Honestly I'd kind of like IDW to try to rework some of these guys and make them fit in the new comic.

Me too, and I would looooove to see him get a second chance. Hell, honestly, I think they all deserve one. IDW, BRING THEM ON!!!

*Original TMNT Cartoon Fan* · 09-16-2012, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

...besides Shredder and the Foot? One thing that bothered me about the show is all the villains felt like they belonged to another show, as if they weren't TMNT villains.

Dragon Lord was obviously very Power Rangers, but even Bonesteel, Silver, Vam Mi and Dr. Quease all felt like they weren't quite TMNT characters. Sure Silver probably felt the closest being a talking ape, but not quite.

Instead of Dr. Quease we could have gotten Baxter Stockman. And why didn't they bring in Leatherhead or Rat King? Or even Krang? It's really odd.

Krang wasn't in Mirage, so is he an original TMNT character (except being created for TMNT)? But I agree, he's so much cooler than the Next Mutation characters.

Loudo · 09-16-2012, 07:51 AM

The original comics had plenty of villains and other characters we never see again. Sticking with the same villains has never been a characteristic of the original TMNT.

Bonesteel fit perfectly in the TMNT universe. He is clearly inspired by the hunter who was chasing Leatherhead in the Mirage comics. He even has the same habit of giving female names to his gear!

Dr Quease was a great great character. I love his ambiguous relationship with Donatello. Donatello desperately wants his respect. And I believe Dr Quease is honestly fascinated by him (I don't think he was acting when he let Donatello escape).
I think he was a great mad scientist. Not evil for the sake of being evil. Unfortunately, the subplot about him and Donatello is rushly resolved in two episodes.

Silver, despite not being a mutant, felt like a mutanimal from the Archie comics. While I don't think he is a bad character, my problem with him is that it doesn't make any sense for him and his goons to be a real threat to the turtles in a direct fight.

The Dragons and the vampires were the ones I didn't love. Coincidentally, both are linked to Venus and her shinobi magic.

The Dragons didn't look and act like dragons at all. Except for the Dragonlord and Wick, they looked like generic Foot ninjas and were defeated just as easily. Their powers weren't very consistent, just like Venus'. They could breath fire and use magic, but I think they did that twice in the whole show.
And the vampire was pretty lame. "My heart! My heart!"

*CyberCubed* · 09-16-2012, 08:35 AM

Silver was the only villain I really liked.

*Spitfire* · 09-16-2012, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Hob

I think it really boiled down to why retread old ground. Seriously though, why would you want to just redo what had been done. I actually give them props for trying to be different.

Great point. Wish Nick figured that out. They're not just retreading old ground they're trying to retread an entire series.

*Cowabunga Carl* · 09-16-2012, 10:09 AM

I don't know if they are trying to retread a whole series, maybe a little but I think there is more then that going on. I mean they have made some changes. It is going to be hard to say how much they have changed it tell we see an actual episode. I'm optimistic about it.

But to talk about this topic, as Sewdfan pointed out Krang isn't an original turtle villain. He was made for the OT. The only "true" characters would be from the original source material which was Mirage. But if you expand the meaning to every other incarnation of TMNT you would have people crying foul that their character didn't make the cut.

So like the OT I have to give NM props for doing its own thing. I think Silver would have worked a lot better if he was a mutated Ape instead of a Yeti. Venus would have been a lot better if they didn't try to fit her into the origin, just made her another mutant somehow, and The Dragon Lord would have worked if they had played him straight and not for laughs. There were a lot of things wrong with the show don't get me wrong, but it was very ambitious for what it tried to do.

09-15-2012, 10:53 PM	#1
CyberCubed Overlord Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 43,731	Why didn't Next Mutation use any TMNT villains...? ...besides Shredder and the Foot? One thing that bothered me about the show is all the villains felt like they belonged to another show, as if they weren't TMNT villains. Dragon Lord was obviously very Power Rangers, but even Bonesteel, Silver, Vam Mi and Dr. Quease all felt like they weren't quite TMNT characters. Sure Silver probably felt the closest being a talking ape, but not quite. Instead of Dr. Quease we could have gotten Baxter Stockman. And why didn't they bring in Leatherhead or Rat King? Or even Krang? It's really odd.

09-16-2012, 12:54 AM	#10
zkarlette Fashionably late Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: CA Posts: 4,146	The show woudn't be the same without Bonesteel. __________________ "If only we'd stop trying to be happy, we could have a pretty good time" E.W

09-16-2012, 12:55 AM	#11
Jester Rat-faced Dude-guy Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Arkansas Posts: 26,294	I'll admit thought, one of the better episodes of NM brings Shredder back. __________________ "Clearly, you're Ninja Turtling incorrectly." - Leo656

09-16-2012, 01:45 AM	#14
Jester Rat-faced Dude-guy Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Arkansas Posts: 26,294	You know, the use of "unknown characters" could almost be another flag for NM being inside the movie continuity. I mean, the movies had Shredder, the Foot, and then unknown characters in the 3 movies. Heck, even TMNT has the Foot and more unknown villains. Why are we acting like the use of characters new to the NM universe is unprecedented or a hindrance. It may be the one strength NM has. __________________ "Clearly, you're Ninja Turtling incorrectly." - Leo656

09-16-2012, 07:51 AM	#17
Loudo Thug Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Milan, Italy Posts: 74	The original comics had plenty of villains and other characters we never see again. Sticking with the same villains has never been a characteristic of the original TMNT. Bonesteel fit perfectly in the TMNT universe. He is clearly inspired by the hunter who was chasing Leatherhead in the Mirage comics. He even has the same habit of giving female names to his gear! Dr Quease was a great great character. I love his ambiguous relationship with Donatello. Donatello desperately wants his respect. And I believe Dr Quease is honestly fascinated by him (I don't think he was acting when he let Donatello escape). I think he was a great mad scientist. Not evil for the sake of being evil. Unfortunately, the subplot about him and Donatello is rushly resolved in two episodes. Silver, despite not being a mutant, felt like a mutanimal from the Archie comics. While I don't think he is a bad character, my problem with him is that it doesn't make any sense for him and his goons to be a real threat to the turtles in a direct fight. The Dragons and the vampires were the ones I didn't love. Coincidentally, both are linked to Venus and her shinobi magic. The Dragons didn't look and act like dragons at all. Except for the Dragonlord and Wick, they looked like generic Foot ninjas and were defeated just as easily. Their powers weren't very consistent, just like Venus'. They could breath fire and use magic, but I think they did that twice in the whole show. And the vampire was pretty lame. "My heart! My heart!" Last edited by Loudo; 09-18-2012 at 09:11 AM.

09-16-2012, 12:01 AM	#2
Cowabunga Carl Mad Scientist Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Salt Lake City Posts: 2,384	I think it really boiled down to why retread old ground. Seriously though, why would you want to just redo what had been done. I actually give them props for trying to be different. I think there were a lot of things going against the show from the get go. Original characters I feel was one of the lesser problems.

09-16-2012, 12:23 AM	#5
Cowabunga Carl Mad Scientist Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Salt Lake City Posts: 2,384	If they had gone with live action versions of established characters people would have cried foul when they weren't like the FW show. You have to remember this came out not that long after the cartoon stopped. It didn't want to be seen as a continuation of the cartoon but its own thing. There were plans to bring Casey, April, and Shredder into more important roles in season 2.

09-16-2012, 12:27 AM	#7
Cowabunga Carl Mad Scientist Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Salt Lake City Posts: 2,384	Yeah I like it as a continuation of the movie universe. I view it as such.

09-16-2012, 12:43 AM	#9
Cowabunga Carl Mad Scientist Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Salt Lake City Posts: 2,384	See I just ignore that part. In all honesty after they defeat Tokka and Rahzar I tune out. The Super Shredder bit I just imagine as normal Shredder and call it good.

09-16-2012, 01:02 AM	#12
Cowabunga Carl Mad Scientist Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Salt Lake City Posts: 2,384	I really liked Sliver.When I was working on a fan fic/comic one of the stories I was thinking of was reworking him into a crime family of mutated Apes. Honestly I'd kind of like IDW to try to rework some of these guys and make them fit in the new comic.

09-16-2012, 01:09 AM	#13
Zulithe Ninjutsu Master Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Bay Area, CA Posts: 6,418	I tried watching the pilot episode on youtube yesterday... if they'd used more familiar characters I might have given it more of a chance. But IMO it was pretty bad :/

09-16-2012, 08:35 AM	#18
CyberCubed Overlord Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 43,731	Silver was the only villain I really liked.

09-16-2012, 10:09 AM	#20
Cowabunga Carl Mad Scientist Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Salt Lake City Posts: 2,384	I don't know if they are trying to retread a whole series, maybe a little but I think there is more then that going on. I mean they have made some changes. It is going to be hard to say how much they have changed it tell we see an actual episode. I'm optimistic about it. But to talk about this topic, as Sewdfan pointed out Krang isn't an original turtle villain. He was made for the OT. The only "true" characters would be from the original source material which was Mirage. But if you expand the meaning to every other incarnation of TMNT you would have people crying foul that their character didn't make the cut. So like the OT I have to give NM props for doing its own thing. I think Silver would have worked a lot better if he was a mutated Ape instead of a Yeti. Venus would have been a lot better if they didn't try to fit her into the origin, just made her another mutant somehow, and The Dragon Lord would have worked if they had played him straight and not for laughs. There were a lot of things wrong with the show don't get me wrong, but it was very ambitious for what it tried to do.