The criticims of the OT you often hear

[CyberCubed]

I hear this a lot, but I am not sure what its referring to.

If you mean:

- The lack of continuing storylines....well most kids shows back then were episodic. Even Batman: TAS can be watched out of order besides the villains debut episodes. In fact most of us never even watched Batman in proper order when it was airing. Same for TMNT.

- The lack of continuity...this I cannot agree with. If you watched the OT season by season you would know there actually is a sense of continuity going on throughout the whole series. Past characters and events are often brought up, old characters come back, and the Technodrome's location is always explained season by season.

- The lack of strong writing, this depends on what type of show you're expecting. The OT was designed to be a comedy series taking 50's sci-fi stories and making them for kids. I find most episodes of the OT enjoyable because of this reason...whatever wacky plot would come up in each new ep was something usually fun to watch.

- The lack of action...there is plenty of action in the OT. No, there weren't huge fight scenes that take up 10 minutes of an episode like modern cartoons, but even when there was no fighting there was action via explosions, guns, jumping through exploding buildings, and the like.

- The repetitive nature of the show. Again...this is no different than most shows of the era. The good guys always win, the bad guys are left vowing to do better next time. It isn't the fact that Shredder/Krang lost in every episode, its HOW we get to that point.



I'd go as far as say the OT was a social commentary and even a parordy of 80's superhero shows at the time with dry humor and a main cast that talked back to each other often.

I think it says quite a bit that adults who rediscover the show through DVDs like it more than they ever expected themselves to.

[rufus]

Ones I see most of the time, Mostly Comicbook sites and IMDB.

To silly.
To Stupid.
Its a stain on Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.

[oldmanwinters]

Yeah, the OT is inherently ridiculous... but in a fun way. And the OT was often poorly written and poorly animated... not unlike most shows of its era.

But I hate the fact that some people stereotype it as more simplistic than it really was. As an adult who has gone back and watched the show heavily, I think it holds up as a fairly unique and non-formulaic 80s cartoon. Other shows that seem to be more respected by fans like Masters of the Universe, Thundercats, and Voltron were remarkably formulaic, leaned heavily on stock animation, and the episode conflicts were often easily resolved through the same gimmick. I like those shows too, but I also recognize that TMNT was different in a good way.

Furthermore, the TMNT had no Alpha Dog character like Optimus Prime, He-Man, Lion-O, or (to a lesser extent) Duke of G.I.Joe. Leonardo may have been the leader, but rarely did he ever dominate the screen time from the other turtles. Again, the old TMNT show was fairly unique in its balanced cast of main characters.

Some fans probably confuse the episodes with the toyline & video games and assume things like (A) Shredder & Krang try to take over the world, (B) the Foot kidnap April O'Neil and takes her prisoner in the Technodrome, or (C) the TMNT fight against a Mutant-of-the-Week working for Shredder happened every episode. But that's simply not the case. Each season has its own subtle continuity (the location of the Technodrome) and the villains often had very diverse motivations.

All that said, I still think the Turtles Forever parody with the Mutant Bananas wasn't that far-fetched when you think about the likelihood of something like that actually happening in the show if one of the writers had gotten the idea first.

[CyberCubed]

One thing I loved is that the main characters actually TALKED BACK to one another and didn't all get along. They actually acted like real people, unlike some shows where the main cast is all bland and polite to each other.

It's why TMNT became so popular with kids, some episodes would have the Turtles cracking jokes among one another, Shredder would call Bebop/Rocksteady idiots, Donatello would sometimes get annoyed with the others, Raph would make some sarcastic quip.

I think the chemistry of the main cast, the villains, and the Channel 6 news crew was definitely the highlights of the series.

[Andrew NDB]

If I get involved in this thread I'll likely lose more friends than usual around here.

[oldmanwinters]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

If I get involved in this thread I'll likely lose more friends than usual around here.

Oh, Andrew, there's nothing more you could say about the ol' FW series that would surprise me at this point.

Also, you gave a conclusion to the Image series and are trying to do the same with the Multiverse up through Volume 4. I say you've earned quite a bit of cred in my book, regardless of how much we might disagree about this silly children's cartoon.

[Dirty Blond]

Isn't it against the rules to "bash" the OT on this message board?

Ban Andrew, LOL!

By the way, the main reason I got in to TMNT through the OT was because it never took itself seriously. I had no idea there was a comic at first because I wasn't interested in comics. But when I heard that it began as a comic book, I just assumed it was no longer around, as though they quit when the OT began.

Now, of course, I'm enjoying all the reprints!

[gobo]

"It's dumb" is the most specific complaint I ever hear. I don't try to change their minds, especially since I partially agree with them.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

If I get involved in this thread I'll likely lose more friends than usual around here.

After everything I've already seen you post I respect your opinion on the old show quite a bit.

But let me ask you this, if TMNT didn't start off as a comic and the cartoon was the first thing about it, and you had no comic to compare it to, how would you actually feel about it?

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

But let me ask you this, if TMNT didn't start off as a comic and the cartoon was the first thing about it, and you had no comic to compare it to, how would you actually feel about it?

If the Fred Wolf cartoon came first (and whether or not a Mirage comic existed afterward, at that point, would be irrelevant)... then that would be a big game changer. In fact, the Mirage material would seem to be a mockery of it, and be a farce in light of its intended campy creation.

But that's not how it played out.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

If the Fred Wolf cartoon came first (and whether or not a Mirage comic existed afterward, at that point, would be irrelevant)... then that would be a big game changer. In fact, the Mirage material would seem to be a mockery of it, and be a farce in light of its intended campy creation.

But that's not how it played out.

I say it played out almost exactly the way you fantasized, seeing as the old 'toon is ten times more memorable and relevant in pop culture than the comics ever were or ever will be

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

One thing I loved is that the main characters actually TALKED BACK to one another and didn't all get along. They actually acted like real people, unlike some shows where the main cast is all bland and polite to each other.

It's why TMNT became so popular with kids, some episodes would have the Turtles cracking jokes among one another, Shredder would call Bebop/Rocksteady idiots, Donatello would sometimes get annoyed with the others, Raph would make some sarcastic quip.

I think the chemistry of the main cast, the villains, and the Channel 6 news crew was definitely the highlights of the series.

Not to mention all discussions at Channel 6.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

- The lack of continuity...this I cannot agree with. If you watched the OT season by season you would know there actually is a sense of continuity going on throughout the whole series. Past characters and events are often brought up, old characters come back, and the Technodrome's location is always explained season by season.

I agree with you on continuity. When I rediscovered the show a couple of years back, I was pleasantly surprised as to the amount of references and consistencies with previous episodes. I'd wager it was one of the few shows to have such strong continuity at the time.

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

I say it played out almost exactly the way you fantasized, seeing as the old 'toon is ten times more memorable and relevant in pop culture than the comics ever were or ever will be

Oh boy. Those could be could fightin' words. No need for instigating.

[pannoni1]

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!search/ninja$20turtles$20worst$20saturday$20morning$20|so rt:date/rec.arts.anime/gnhILcuxYEQ/0uprUa7ZcPEJ

I found a comment from back in 1990 during the OT's heyday, and one person says that most action scenes stink, while another says this"

Now this show is one that REALLY makes me sick. Eastman and Laird created
TMNT as a spoof of all of the stupide cutesy little cartoons about super-
heroes. There was nothing comical about the turtles. They were
very dark characters, heroes who took things extremely seriously. They
seldom joked, and had a deep sense of the bushi (the warrior). What
this "CARTOON" as done was to turn TMNT into the one thing that Eastman
and Laird was making a spoof of. Makes me really nauseated.

I'd say he hit the nail on the head in that the OT was just a parody of what the original Turtles were. People say that there were too many liberties given from the origin story. However, I have no problem since it would be like taking a crime series and converting it to a sitcom version.

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!search/tmnt$20saturday$20morning$20ghostbusters|sort:date/alt.cult-movies/ZwtUj4yikbE/bdWoMlJgXnwJ

However, not all criticism was bad, with one person saying that most Saturday morning stuff is (was) worse than TMNT.

[Spitfire]

The OT had poor writing there's really no arguing that. They recycled plots shamelessly. Just because other shows did it doesn't make it any better. Batman and Gargoyles might be some of the few that actually hold up.

[pferreira]

Originally Posted by pannoni1

However, not all criticism was bad, with one person saying that most Saturday morning stuff is (was) worse than TMNT.

I think I can honestly say the original series overall without a doubt was ten times better than Transformers, which was a toy line led cartoon more formulaic than Fred Wolf's show ever was. At least the latter had a variety of storylines and locations. The OT series is not the best 80s cartoon made but it certainly is one of the best ones, which is why I'm on this forum today.

[cartoonistaaron]

I've gone back and watched the OT and I find the main characters to be well-designed and the voice acting fantastic. The music was also outstanding. The stories? Eh. It's definitely a kids' show but the voice acting elevates it - the show feels better than it really is. I never watched stuff like GI Joe or Transformers because everything - design, voice acting, music - seemed to take itself WAY too seriously.

I would say criticisms of the OT "kiddyfying" the TMNT are valid, but I also think the cartoon writers injected a ton of personality into the Turtles where not much existed before - especially regarding Donatello and Michaelangelo.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by cartoonistaaron

I would say criticisms of the OT "kiddyfying" the TMNT are valid

I don't think the blame should be placed solely on Fred Wolf and company. I'm sure Kevin and Peter knew what they were getting into. They decided to take the Turtles into toys and animation likely knowing that it would need to be lighter in order to market. So if anyone is to be blamed for the Turtles' "descent" into a cartoonish characterization, it's the original creators.

Keep in mind that I love the cartoon, so I'm not actually putting any blame on E & L for this business decision. I wouldn't have found the comics without the OT.

[Tomoshibi Amatsu]

I was a small kid at the time so I loved it being episodic. I don't think I would have been into something like 2K3 back then where I'd actually have to think and follow and overarching plot. It was nice that the continuity ws kept to a minimum in favor of shredder and krang pulling a Dr. Claw at the end of every episode.

I mean when people say Inspector Gadget should have had a plot they forget that it would have ruined the charm of the show. That's how I feel about the OT and why for the longest time I couldn't get into 2K3. There was a certain charm about it where I didn't care if it had a plot, and that just made it weird when I first watched 2K3. Sure I may think different looking back on it now but I wouldn't change the OT. The goofy, campy fun and episodic nature is what made me love the turtles and buy a crap ton of their merchandise back when I was a tot.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

I hear this a lot, but I am not sure what its referring to.

If you mean:

- The lack of continuing storylines....well most kids shows back then were episodic. Even Batman: TAS can be watched out of order besides the villains debut episodes. In fact most of us never even watched Batman in proper order when it was airing. Same for TMNT.

- The lack of continuity...this I cannot agree with. If you watched the OT season by season you would know there actually is a sense of continuity going on throughout the whole series. Past characters and events are often brought up, old characters come back, and the Technodrome's location is always explained season by season.

- The lack of strong writing, this depends on what type of show you're expecting. The OT was designed to be a comedy series taking 50's sci-fi stories and making them for kids. I find most episodes of the OT enjoyable because of this reason...whatever wacky plot would come up in each new ep was something usually fun to watch.

- The lack of action...there is plenty of action in the OT. No, there weren't huge fight scenes that take up 10 minutes of an episode like modern cartoons, but even when there was no fighting there was action via explosions, guns, jumping through exploding buildings, and the like.

- The repetitive nature of the show. Again...this is no different than most shows of the era. The good guys always win, the bad guys are left vowing to do better next time. It isn't the fact that Shredder/Krang lost in every episode, its HOW we get to that point.



I'd go as far as say the OT was a social commentary and even a parordy of 80's superhero shows at the time with dry humor and a main cast that talked back to each other often.

I think it says quite a bit that adults who rediscover the show through DVDs like it more than they ever expected themselves to.

The bad dudes at least win in the first part of the Big Trilogy. But only temporary.