Was every alien villain in the OT more competent than Krang and Shredder?

*CyberCubed* · 04-09-2013, 10:20 PM

I've been thinking about this alot after watching the episodes lately, and it seems like every alien they brought into the show was more competent than Krang and Shredder:

- Beserko captures Krang in his debut episode, gave Shredder and the Turtles a run for their money

- Shreeka was never actually defeated by the turtles and she made Krang look like a chump.

- Titanus was a mutant rather than an alien, but it was said in the future he almost conquered the world with mutants if the Turtles hadn't trapped him in the past. His mutant henchmen were far more powerful and skilled than Bebop/Rocksteady.

- Lord Dregg almost conquered the planet, and came closer to killing the Turtles than Krang/Shredder ever did.

- Doomquest was another competent alien warlord from another dimension.

Its actually kind of funny. As much as we love Shredder and Krang, they really were portrayed as goofballs half the time, while all these other villains weren't.

**Jester** · 04-09-2013, 10:22 PM

Captain Cruelick was fairly inept.

And season 10's Krang and Shredder seemed fairly competent.

*CyberCubed* · 04-09-2013, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jester

Captain Cruelick was fairly inept.

And season 10's Krang and Shredder seemed fairly competent.

They were a little more, but they still got defeated rather easily by the Turtles. Even those Galaxians in the Cyber Turtles episode were harder to take down, whereas Casey Jones was taking on Shredder himself!

*miru* · 04-09-2013, 10:26 PM

Even they look like chumps compared to.the 2k3 ones.

Ch'rell: caused a civil.war, conquered NYC from the inside, and destroyed many alien.civilizations. And he's been doing this for ages.

Sh'o'kanbo was pretty much like Ch'rell.

Savanti was another very deadly alien villain.

Dregg was by far the most monstrous (before Ch'rell)

Pterobat · 04-09-2013, 11:07 PM

Well, the new alien villains weren't goofballs, but they had no panache, either. They were pretty damn boring.

**Jester** · 04-09-2013, 11:11 PM

^ Jester likes this!

*zkarlette* · 04-09-2013, 11:20 PM

One of the reasons I liked the OT was because Shredder and Krang were goofballs and let's not forget Bebop and Rocksteady.

Pterobat · 04-10-2013, 12:07 AM

Don't get me wrong: I like a "good" villain, one who is cool and smart and badass.

But the OT simply couldn't create villains like that. All of their attempts at such just created bland, generic villains, even with the dulcet tones of Tony Jay involved.

I understand getting tired of Krang and Shredder, but the cartoon should've stuck to its strengths, or at least made more effort if it wanted to create more traditional villains.

*CyberCubed* · 04-10-2013, 07:35 AM

I agree with you, even if I did like Beserko, Titanus and Dregg a little bit.

Even the supporting villains in the earlier seasons were portrayed as comical, like The Rat King, Baxter and Leatherhead...which made them all fun to watch as well. Groundchuck and Dirtbag were fun too.

Its probably why a lot of the villains from the last few seasons wound up being forgettable, I mean does anyone really want to see Megavolt from Season 8 again? I'm guessing not.

ryukenden · 04-10-2013, 08:44 AM

It's because we were so attached to Shredder, Krang, Rocksteady and Bebop we always expect them to show up to see what hair-brained scheme they come up with this time. The mobsters, mad scientists and alien warlords have virtually no charm to them.

Pterobat · 04-10-2013, 11:00 AM

Yeah...there's principles, and there's strengths. Principles say we should diversify the villains' roster so the series doesn't get stale. But if creating new villains from scratch isn't the series' strength, then they maybe shouldn't bother.

*Original TMNT Cartoon Fan* · 04-10-2013, 11:36 AM

But the "Artless" aliens are silly (believe in "Made in the Crab Nebula" stickers). One of the silliest episodes in the show. It would be way beter with ordinary Earth human art thieves in Italy (without any connection to Shredder and Krang), just getting their butts kicked.

*CyberCubed* · 04-10-2013, 07:45 PM

Ah, don't forget Skaarg and Dementor from Season 7's "Convicts from Dimension X," even they seemed more ruthless and cunning. Of course they had no humor either.

*pannoni1* · 04-11-2013, 11:38 AM

Don't forget Mr. Ogg who not only shrunk Bebop & Rocksteady and also turned the Technodrome into a Pumpkin, but contributed all of the drama against the Turtles after Shredder/Krang tells Ogg who the real enemies are. That's part of the reason why I like the humor of the OT where aliens could trap the big goons and forces me to laugh. Z, Baxter's alien computer was also smarter than Baxter himself, even based on his pre-mutated intelligence where he would occassionally screw up.

Mondo_Gecko · 04-11-2013, 06:28 PM

I think one of the key factors that every one is forgetting that inept villainy was a staple of 80's cartoons. For every battle cry, message at the end, there also seemed to be a rule that the bad guys can never truly be competent. Do I like it? No. But that's the way it was.

Examples

GI Joe had Cobra Commander and the bumbling Cobra

He-Man had Skeletor and his flunkies constantly messing up.

ThunderCats had Mum-Ra and the mutants

Even Carebears, had No-Heart a supposedly evil, powerful wizard always dropping the ball.

That's one of the reasons there is no bad character, only bad writers. Bebop & Rocksteady could be a threat in the right hands, so could Shredder, Krang, the other villains or even the aforementioned villains above.

Pterobat · 04-11-2013, 09:22 PM

Well...

The main Fred Wolf villains were a little different in that, I think, the writers reveled in their stupidity and tried to make an actual joke out of it, which makes Shredder, Krang, Bebop, and Rocksteady memorable.

There was still plenty of bad writing in the series to pass around, but I think the old TMNT villains aren't quite the same as other bumbling villains who, though equally incompetent, were played a little straighter. The joke didn't always work, but it tried a little more than other shows.

It would be easy to make them over into more competent villains, but the appeal of them as silly characters is still important. We're not saying competent OT villains are a bad thing, just that the attempts at such were rarely entertaining characters, and the only memorable villains were the major ones.

I kind of like Z, though....

*CyberCubed* · 04-11-2013, 09:27 PM

I suppose the difference is Shredder and Krang's plans actually made sense to a degree, and they were able to succeed from time to time in small doses.

They were also viewed as serious threats from the Turtles. The main characters knew they couldn't just sit around and let Shredder/Krang do what they wanted or else the city/world would be in trouble.

When you watch the original toon you actually root for the villains as much as the Turtles. Always loved it when Bebop/Rocksteady actually did something right, or Shredder made himself look cool, or Krang got in on the action instead of staying in the Technodrome.

04-09-2013, 10:20 PM	#1
CyberCubed Overlord Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 43,704	Was every alien villain in the OT more competent than Krang and Shredder? I've been thinking about this alot after watching the episodes lately, and it seems like every alien they brought into the show was more competent than Krang and Shredder: - Beserko captures Krang in his debut episode, gave Shredder and the Turtles a run for their money - Shreeka was never actually defeated by the turtles and she made Krang look like a chump. - Titanus was a mutant rather than an alien, but it was said in the future he almost conquered the world with mutants if the Turtles hadn't trapped him in the past. His mutant henchmen were far more powerful and skilled than Bebop/Rocksteady. - Lord Dregg almost conquered the planet, and came closer to killing the Turtles than Krang/Shredder ever did. - Doomquest was another competent alien warlord from another dimension. Its actually kind of funny. As much as we love Shredder and Krang, they really were portrayed as goofballs half the time, while all these other villains weren't. Last edited by CyberCubed; 04-09-2013 at 10:20 PM. Reason: @

04-09-2013, 10:22 PM	#2
Jester Rat-faced Dude-guy Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Arkansas Posts: 26,293	Captain Cruelick was fairly inept. And season 10's Krang and Shredder seemed fairly competent. __________________ "Clearly, you're Ninja Turtling incorrectly." - Leo656

04-09-2013, 11:07 PM	#5
Pterobat Hench Mutant Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 380	Well, the new alien villains weren't goofballs, but they had no panache, either. They were pretty damn boring. __________________ "No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream"--Shirley Jackson http://pterobat.tumblr.com

04-09-2013, 11:11 PM	#6
Jester Rat-faced Dude-guy Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Arkansas Posts: 26,293	^ Jester likes this! __________________ "Clearly, you're Ninja Turtling incorrectly." - Leo656

04-09-2013, 11:20 PM	#7
zkarlette Fashionably late Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: CA Posts: 4,146	One of the reasons I liked the OT was because Shredder and Krang were goofballs and let's not forget Bebop and Rocksteady. __________________ "If only we'd stop trying to be happy, we could have a pretty good time" E.W

04-09-2013, 10:26 PM	#4
miru Mad Scientist Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,874	Even they look like chumps compared to.the 2k3 ones. Ch'rell: caused a civil.war, conquered NYC from the inside, and destroyed many alien.civilizations. And he's been doing this for ages. Sh'o'kanbo was pretty much like Ch'rell. Savanti was another very deadly alien villain. Dregg was by far the most monstrous (before Ch'rell)

04-10-2013, 12:07 AM	#8
Pterobat Hench Mutant Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 380	Don't get me wrong: I like a "good" villain, one who is cool and smart and badass. But the OT simply couldn't create villains like that. All of their attempts at such just created bland, generic villains, even with the dulcet tones of Tony Jay involved. I understand getting tired of Krang and Shredder, but the cartoon should've stuck to its strengths, or at least made more effort if it wanted to create more traditional villains. __________________ "No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream"--Shirley Jackson http://pterobat.tumblr.com

04-10-2013, 07:35 AM	#9
CyberCubed Overlord Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 43,704	I agree with you, even if I did like Beserko, Titanus and Dregg a little bit. Even the supporting villains in the earlier seasons were portrayed as comical, like The Rat King, Baxter and Leatherhead...which made them all fun to watch as well. Groundchuck and Dirtbag were fun too. Its probably why a lot of the villains from the last few seasons wound up being forgettable, I mean does anyone really want to see Megavolt from Season 8 again? I'm guessing not.

04-10-2013, 08:44 AM	#10
ryukenden Hench Mutant Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 383	It's because we were so attached to Shredder, Krang, Rocksteady and Bebop we always expect them to show up to see what hair-brained scheme they come up with this time. The mobsters, mad scientists and alien warlords have virtually no charm to them.

04-10-2013, 11:00 AM	#11
Pterobat Hench Mutant Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 380	Yeah...there's principles, and there's strengths. Principles say we should diversify the villains' roster so the series doesn't get stale. But if creating new villains from scratch isn't the series' strength, then they maybe shouldn't bother. __________________ "No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream"--Shirley Jackson http://pterobat.tumblr.com

04-10-2013, 11:36 AM	#12
Original TMNT Cartoon Fan Overlord Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Sweden Posts: 10,477	But the "Artless" aliens are silly (believe in "Made in the Crab Nebula" stickers). One of the silliest episodes in the show. It would be way beter with ordinary Earth human art thieves in Italy (without any connection to Shredder and Krang), just getting their butts kicked.

04-10-2013, 07:45 PM	#13
CyberCubed Overlord Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 43,704	Ah, don't forget Skaarg and Dementor from Season 7's "Convicts from Dimension X," even they seemed more ruthless and cunning. Of course they had no humor either.

04-11-2013, 11:38 AM	#14
pannoni1 Foot Elite Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: USA Posts: 3,447	Don't forget Mr. Ogg who not only shrunk Bebop & Rocksteady and also turned the Technodrome into a Pumpkin, but contributed all of the drama against the Turtles after Shredder/Krang tells Ogg who the real enemies are. That's part of the reason why I like the humor of the OT where aliens could trap the big goons and forces me to laugh. Z, Baxter's alien computer was also smarter than Baxter himself, even based on his pre-mutated intelligence where he would occassionally screw up. __________________ http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/sho...d.php?t=37065- MY WANT LIST TMNT FAN CLUB LINK: http://sot.ag/gCjK/ 30 years of Turtle Power!

04-11-2013, 06:28 PM	#15
Mondo_Gecko Stone Warrior Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 670	I think one of the key factors that every one is forgetting that inept villainy was a staple of 80's cartoons. For every battle cry, message at the end, there also seemed to be a rule that the bad guys can never truly be competent. Do I like it? No. But that's the way it was. Examples GI Joe had Cobra Commander and the bumbling Cobra He-Man had Skeletor and his flunkies constantly messing up. ThunderCats had Mum-Ra and the mutants Even Carebears, had No-Heart a supposedly evil, powerful wizard always dropping the ball. That's one of the reasons there is no bad character, only bad writers. Bebop & Rocksteady could be a threat in the right hands, so could Shredder, Krang, the other villains or even the aforementioned villains above.

04-11-2013, 09:22 PM	#16
Pterobat Hench Mutant Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 380	Well... The main Fred Wolf villains were a little different in that, I think, the writers reveled in their stupidity and tried to make an actual joke out of it, which makes Shredder, Krang, Bebop, and Rocksteady memorable. There was still plenty of bad writing in the series to pass around, but I think the old TMNT villains aren't quite the same as other bumbling villains who, though equally incompetent, were played a little straighter. The joke didn't always work, but it tried a little more than other shows. It would be easy to make them over into more competent villains, but the appeal of them as silly characters is still important. We're not saying competent OT villains are a bad thing, just that the attempts at such were rarely entertaining characters, and the only memorable villains were the major ones. I kind of like Z, though.... __________________ "No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream"--Shirley Jackson http://pterobat.tumblr.com

04-11-2013, 09:27 PM	#17
CyberCubed Overlord Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 43,704	I suppose the difference is Shredder and Krang's plans actually made sense to a degree, and they were able to succeed from time to time in small doses. They were also viewed as serious threats from the Turtles. The main characters knew they couldn't just sit around and let Shredder/Krang do what they wanted or else the city/world would be in trouble. When you watch the original toon you actually root for the villains as much as the Turtles. Always loved it when Bebop/Rocksteady actually did something right, or Shredder made himself look cool, or Krang got in on the action instead of staying in the Technodrome.