TMNT Antagonists - Personal History or Out of Their League?

*Cipher* · 08-19-2014, 05:35 PM

Was rereading bits of various TMNT series recently and it struck me that, as far as their arch-villains go, we tend to get one of two archetypes, both of which I enjoy for different reasons:

One is the "Shredder" archetype: a figure deeply rooted in the Turtles' or Splinter's past that makes for a low-key feud and can help provide a thematic cornerstone to the Turtles' conflict. I know for many fans this is a key part of the story. Most often this spot is occupied by various incarnations' Shredders, but occasionally others have found a place here as well: Karai in 4Kids, Pimiko and her associates in Image, etc. It might tie into save-the-world-level plots, but it doesn't have to.

The other recurring archetype, though, and one I like almost as much, is a larger-scale villain for whom the Turtles should be a blip on the radar, but who end up being a constant source of antagonism. I like this because it allows these accidental and low-key Turtles to butt heads with villains who've presumably run roughshod over countless enemies before, only to be derailed at the end of the line by the Turtles. It's often also accompanied by a descent into a singular obsession with destroying them, even at the expense of their original plans. See: Dregg, Ch'rell (who fits both this archetype and the one above), the demon Shredder in 4Kids, possibly IDW Krang, and more. (Arguably other versions of Krang, Maligna, Sh'Okanabo, uh, maybe even Dragon Lord ... if you want.)

Honestly, I like series including a bit of both, but what's your take? When looking for a Turtles villain, which approach works better for you?

*Powder* · 08-19-2014, 09:03 PM

I really can't say one works better than another, I think they're both a necessity. I mean, these two kinds of villains essentially are the entire purpose of the TMNT. The former is to show that they have been in a battle since their conception, raised to fight, enduring a vicious cycle of revenge, knowing only the importance of family & avenging your own, etc. The latter is all about circumstance, how the turtles always fall into these epic situations by accident, yet seem to be fated for them just the same. They're just teenagers who want to have fun, but they essentially have to save the world. Can't catch a break. So yeah, both are super important. Can't have just one.

*snake* · 08-19-2014, 09:06 PM

Both are good in my opinion. I like the bigger threats a lot, but I prefer the Foot/Shredder archetype.

~~Leo656~~ · 08-19-2014, 09:28 PM

"Nature Is Balance".

(That's "pretentious douchebag" for, "You need a little of both".)

*CyberCubed* · 08-20-2014, 12:14 AM

Can't the second pertain to anyone outside of Shredder and the Foot Clan?

Krang is an evil alien warlord, the Turtles would be a blip on his radar if he didn't come to Earth. Agent Bishop, the Triceratons in 4kids, any alien warlord like Malinga, Dregg, etc.

Cryomancer · 08-20-2014, 02:20 AM

I think Bishop was in over his head regarding the turtles sometimes, at other times they seemed about even. He supposedly has the backing of the government but you never really see it. He's almost always alone, the turtles mess up his body and steal his stuff. He was in charge of "alien" matters, so the turtles were kind of something else he wasn't expecting to deal with. He was a good opponent in a lot of ways and I'm sad he hasn't jumped to another incarnation yet.

Once in awhile they make villains that are obviously weaker than the turtles. Baxter is probably the most obvious example here. He almost never gets the upper hand on the turtles at all and he's had the most chances to do so other than Shredder. Not to mention he's a regular dude with no particular physical strength or fighting style, unless he gets mutated or turned into a cyborg anyway. But those don't seem to help him very much either.

~~Davetello~~ · 08-20-2014, 01:21 PM

Personally speaking the material with the Foot and Shredder has always been the highlight for me. I'm just really into clandestine stuff like ninjas, assassins, street level brutality. It's part of why I really like Daredevil, who as we know had a big influence on certain turtles characters including the Foot themselves. However, all the space stuff and alien antagonists and allies appeals to me as well e.g. Triceratons, Krang, Fugitoid, Federation. It's great how 4kids managed to fuse both together by making Shredder an utrom. At first I didn't like that idea but it grew on me.

08-19-2014, 05:35 PM	#1
Cipher Foot Elite Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 3,454	TMNT Antagonists - Personal History or Out of Their League? Was rereading bits of various TMNT series recently and it struck me that, as far as their arch-villains go, we tend to get one of two archetypes, both of which I enjoy for different reasons: One is the "Shredder" archetype: a figure deeply rooted in the Turtles' or Splinter's past that makes for a low-key feud and can help provide a thematic cornerstone to the Turtles' conflict. I know for many fans this is a key part of the story. Most often this spot is occupied by various incarnations' Shredders, but occasionally others have found a place here as well: Karai in 4Kids, Pimiko and her associates in Image, etc. It might tie into save-the-world-level plots, but it doesn't have to. The other recurring archetype, though, and one I like almost as much, is a larger-scale villain for whom the Turtles should be a blip on the radar, but who end up being a constant source of antagonism. I like this because it allows these accidental and low-key Turtles to butt heads with villains who've presumably run roughshod over countless enemies before, only to be derailed at the end of the line by the Turtles. It's often also accompanied by a descent into a singular obsession with destroying them, even at the expense of their original plans. See: Dregg, Ch'rell (who fits both this archetype and the one above), the demon Shredder in 4Kids, possibly IDW Krang, and more. (Arguably other versions of Krang, Maligna, Sh'Okanabo, uh, maybe even Dragon Lord ... if you want.) Honestly, I like series including a bit of both, but what's your take? When looking for a Turtles villain, which approach works better for you?

08-20-2014, 02:20 AM	#6
Cryomancer Mad Scientist Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 1,090	I think Bishop was in over his head regarding the turtles sometimes, at other times they seemed about even. He supposedly has the backing of the government but you never really see it. He's almost always alone, the turtles mess up his body and steal his stuff. He was in charge of "alien" matters, so the turtles were kind of something else he wasn't expecting to deal with. He was a good opponent in a lot of ways and I'm sad he hasn't jumped to another incarnation yet. Once in awhile they make villains that are obviously weaker than the turtles. Baxter is probably the most obvious example here. He almost never gets the upper hand on the turtles at all and he's had the most chances to do so other than Shredder. Not to mention he's a regular dude with no particular physical strength or fighting style, unless he gets mutated or turned into a cyborg anyway. But those don't seem to help him very much either. __________________ Final Boss of translation group Opentrain. We do videogame comics and TMNT stuff. http://opentrain.theyear199x.org/

08-19-2014, 09:03 PM	#2
Powder 40 Years of TMNT Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Shell-Ri-La Posts: 26,956	I really can't say one works better than another, I think they're both a necessity. I mean, these two kinds of villains essentially are the entire purpose of the TMNT. The former is to show that they have been in a battle since their conception, raised to fight, enduring a vicious cycle of revenge, knowing only the importance of family & avenging your own, etc. The latter is all about circumstance, how the turtles always fall into these epic situations by accident, yet seem to be fated for them just the same. They're just teenagers who want to have fun, but they essentially have to save the world. Can't catch a break. So yeah, both are super important. Can't have just one.

08-19-2014, 09:06 PM	#3
snake Disgusting Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Outer Heaven Posts: 12,231	Both are good in my opinion. I like the bigger threats a lot, but I prefer the Foot/Shredder archetype.

08-19-2014, 09:28 PM	#4
~~Leo656~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nWo Country Posts: 27,703	"Nature Is Balance". (That's "pretentious douchebag" for, "You need a little of both".)

08-20-2014, 12:14 AM	#5
CyberCubed Overlord Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 43,880	Can't the second pertain to anyone outside of Shredder and the Foot Clan? Krang is an evil alien warlord, the Turtles would be a blip on his radar if he didn't come to Earth. Agent Bishop, the Triceratons in 4kids, any alien warlord like Malinga, Dregg, etc.

08-20-2014, 01:21 PM	#7
~~Davetello~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Greater Glasgow, Scotland, The Ununited Kingdom Posts: 1,712	Personally speaking the material with the Foot and Shredder has always been the highlight for me. I'm just really into clandestine stuff like ninjas, assassins, street level brutality. It's part of why I really like Daredevil, who as we know had a big influence on certain turtles characters including the Foot themselves. However, all the space stuff and alien antagonists and allies appeals to me as well e.g. Triceratons, Krang, Fugitoid, Federation. It's great how 4kids managed to fuse both together by making Shredder an utrom. At first I didn't like that idea but it grew on me.