Karai or Pimiko?

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

As most of us know, Karai was originally no relation to the Shredder. She was instead a high-ranking leader of the Foot Clan, specifically from its branch in Japan. The Shredder's daughter was instead Oroku Pimiko, a kunoichi introduced in Image's (non-canon) Volume 3.

Then the 4Kids cartoon came along and blended Pimiko and Karai into one character... my question, specific to the Mirage/Image comics only (no IDW!), is which female Foot ninja did you prefer?

Myself, I prefer Pimiko as she and Raphael were always at each other's throats and later vying for leadership of the NYC Foot, until they were forced to fight together against Lady Shredder.

[Mewzard]

Kurai, mainly because my experience with Mirage has been limited to Volume 1 (I fell behind on my TMNT comics over a year ago *outside of getting TMNT:UC 4 & 5 for my birthday last year*, so I haven't progressed in a while).

Hopefully, I'll catch up with the trades in time for Volume 2's end and be ready for Volume 3.

Did like Karai from what I saw of her in City at War.

[ToTheNines]

If we're just talking comics, Karai is a way better character. She unfortunately suffered from some 4kids affect and certain Tales writers made her more villainous without an explanation. Even Laird himself was kind of guilty of that in volume 4.

I do like Pimiko though and I think it's a shame that she's been left in obscurity. Her outfit is lame, but could be easily reworked, and she makes more sense than Karai in the role of Saki's daughter.

[neatoman]

I have no experience with Pimiko yet, all I know is that she shows up in the Image series claiming to be Saki's daughter.

However, considering that Karai is an accepted part of the TMNT lore and that Pimiko is mostly forgotten, I think that tells us something about which is the more important and popular of the two.

[Usagi Miyamoto]

The only thing I miss about Pimiko is the dynamic with Raphael and the complexity it brought to The Foot. I really dislike her outfit, very 90's in a bad way. Karai was a more interesting character, and pushed the theme that revenge only fueled further violence much better IMO.

Originally Posted by neatoman

I have no experience with Pimiko yet, all I know is that she shows up in the Image series claiming to be Saki's daughter.

However, considering that Karai is an accepted part of the TMNT lore and that Pimiko is mostly forgotten, I think that tells us something about which is the more important and popular of the two.

Pimiko was an important basis for the modern Karai, so she's still pretty important. Personally I wouldn't mind an incarnation where Karai wasn't related to Shredder and Pimiko was brought back as his daughter.

[***First of Two Latin Kings***]

Originally Posted by neatoman

I have no experience with Pimiko yet, all I know is that she shows up in the Image series claiming to be Saki's daughter.

However, considering that Karai is an accepted part of the TMNT lore and that Pimiko is mostly forgotten, I think that tells us something about which is the more important and popular of the two.

That's because Vol. 3 "broke too many rules" as far as a lot of fans were concerned and has for the most part sunken into obscurity itself. I loved Pimiko as a character, and while I agree with what most have said, I feel like Karai as the descendent/heir of Oroku Saki works well (which I would imagine happened in 2K3 as a result of Laird's involvement)? Was she confirmed to be his daughter in the 2007 movie? Even in the 2K3 show she was his heir, but not a biological descendent/daughter, technically. He raised her as such but he was no more her father than he was in Mirage.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

"Broke too many rules?" Just curious, what were those?

Donny being a cyborg; Splinter mutating into Man-Bat; Leo losing a hand.

Isn't that about the extent of people's problems, plot-wise?

Originally Posted by ***Doo Doo Acureds***

That's because Vol. 3 "broke too many rules" as far as a lot of fans were concerned and has for the most part sunken into obscurity itself. I loved Pimiko as a character, and while I agree with what most have said, I feel like Karai as the descendent/heir of Oroku Saki works well (which I would imagine happened in 2K3 as a result of Laird's involvement)? Was she confirmed to be his daughter in the 2007 movie? Even in the 2K3 show she was his heir, but not a biological descendent/daughter, technically. He raised her as such but he was no more her father than he was in Mirage.

[Andrew NDB]

I don't think Pimiko is ever going to win any kind of popularity contest with Karai, but nor should she. Karai has past, present, and future "history" with the Turtles, and in multiple media of... varying quality. She's even been in two TMNT movies now. Now, this doesn't mean Karai is a better character than Pimiko, or even that she's "cooler," it just means she's been all over the place in TMNT since the early 90s and Pimiko has not.

Originally Posted by ***Doo Doo Acureds***

That's because Vol. 3 "broke too many rules" as far as a lot of fans were concerned

What does that even mean?

I loved Pimiko as a character, and while I agree with what most have said, I feel like Karai as the descendent/heir of Oroku Saki works well

Why? It cheapens her character. She was fine as a strong woman -- perhaps even stronger than Saki -- ninja master and Foot Clan head... why the need to tie her to Oroku Saki, particularly as something less than him (a daughter, his second in command, etc.) when in the source material she was anything but?

To even want TPTB to do that with her seems outright misogynistic.

Was she confirmed to be his daughter in the 2007 movie?

No, but by the way she was talking she definitely came off as some kind of underling of his.

Even in the 2K3 show she was his heir, but not a biological descendent/daughter, technically. He raised her as such but he was no more her father than he was in Mirage.

Um, you realize that's what a father is, right? Whether biologically or not. Either way, that's a far ****ing cry from her portrayal in Mirage. If Saki was anything to her in that while he was still alive, it was probably as a pest she would have to deal with over the telephone from Japan, an annoying upstart in New York that kept causing her Foot Clan problems who she could see to be replaced if need be.

[Rooish]

I like Karai both as Shredder's daughter and as his boss. Now that so many incarnations have had her as is daughter I find it difficult to divorce her from that. Mirage Karai, however, will probably never come back, but she was awesome.

Pimiko--can't get past the outfit. Seriously. Who ****ing dresses like that? Put some ****ing pants on. Super inappropriately oversexualized.

[Xav]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

If Saki was anything to her in that while he was still alive, it was probably as a pest she would have to deal with over the telephone from Japan, an annoying upstart in New York that kept causing her Foot Clan problems who she could see to be replaced if need be.

Didn't you say before that she was originally going to be revealed as Saki's lover in Image?

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

The tying of Karai to Shredder via the adoptive daughter/underling role was done by the 4kids cartoon, under the approval of Peter Laird himself.It's usage in other versions has eclipsed the source material in the public consciousness, and it seems to have become prevalent it all subsequent media adaptations. Pimiko is virtually forgotten- Laird had a chance to have her fill the 'daughter' role in 4kids, but chose to have Karai fill that role instead. 4kids Karai is now the default over Mirage.

That being said, I believe IDW has don a remarkable job with their adaptation of 4Kids Karai. She has proven herself as Competent as the Shredder, possibly more so, by rebuilding the foot into a viable ninja clan even before Saki's return. We get to see a younger Karai grow and develop into something more resembling the Mirage version, who will probably replace shredder as leader of the foot after issue 50. And I wouldn't be surprised to see the turtles help her take that position by aiding in some sort of conflict, ending their feud with the foot clan, and putting her in the exact same position as her Mirage counterpart.

So no, I don't think it's demeaning at all to see Karai start off as younger and more inexperienced, but still very competent as we see in IDW, and getting her chance to grow and develop into the Karai who is leader of the foot. After all, it seems her planning has done more for the Foot of the course of IDW rather than Shredder's 'alienate all members of the clan except Bebop and Rocksteady, so they'll all turn on me in the end' strategy. It almost as if her competence is setting her up to lead- and I wouldn't be surprised that, if Shredder survives issue 50- that we'll find her leading the foot, with Shredder cast out and left with nothing but his rhino and warthog lackeys.

Pimiko... seems more of a character who wants to live up to Saki's legacy, rather than achieving it. In IDW, I see her more as something along the lines of Karai's sister or close relative, starting a conflict over leadership of the foot due to Karai's not running it exactly as their ancestor Shredder had.

[Usagi Miyamoto]

The big reason for this is that Shredder isn't a legacy character, for the most part, in all other turtle media. Karai being an equal that replaces Shredder is great for when he's dead, but having her be of relation to him when he's a longstanding figure probably makes more sense. There could be room for rivalry or something between Karai and Oroku, but most TMNT media has also settled on the idea of Shredder being the head of rather than a branch of The Foot.

[The Big Bad]

Originally Posted by Usagi Miyamoto

Pimiko was an important basis for the modern Karai, so she's still pretty important. Personally I wouldn't mind an incarnation where Karai wasn't related to Shredder and Pimiko was brought back as his daughter.

I don't see that as necessarily being the case. Sure, Pimiko happened to be introduced as Shredder's daughter before Karai was reconceived as the same, but I don't think the first needs to have happened in order for the 4Kids creators to make the decisions that they made. "X is now Y's relative" is far from the biggest creative leap one can make, particularly with a concept like TMNT, where themes of parenthood and family are part of the core concept.

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

[...]

Why? It cheapens her character. She was fine as a strong woman -- perhaps even stronger than Saki -- ninja master and Foot Clan head... why the need to tie her to Oroku Saki, particularly as something less than him (a daughter, his second in command, etc.) when in the source material she was anything but?

To even want TPTB to do that with her seems outright misogynistic.

[...]

No, but by the way she was talking she definitely came off as some kind of underling of his.

[...]

Um, you realize that's what a father is, right? Whether biologically or not. Either way, that's a far ****ing cry from her portrayal in Mirage. If Saki was anything to her in that while he was still alive, it was probably as a pest she would have to deal with over the telephone from Japan, an annoying upstart in New York that kept causing her Foot Clan problems who she could see to be replaced if need be.

Question, Andrew. Do you believe Mirage Karai's particular circumstances make her an inherently stronger character than other versions? If so, would turtles who were not Splinter's children and students and soldiers be stronger than the turtles we have who are all those things?

[snake]

Pimiko's alright, but I'd perfer Karai as a descendant many years down the line.

[Usagi Miyamoto]

Originally Posted by The Big Bad

I don't see that as necessarily being the case. Sure, Pimiko happened to be introduced as Shredder's daughter before Karai was reconceived as the same, but I don't think the first needs to have happened in order for the 4Kids creators to make the decisions that they made. "X is now Y's relative" is far from the biggest creative leap one can make, particularly with a concept like TMNT, where themes of parenthood and family are part of the core concept.

I can see what you mean, but I feel as though it's a rather inescapable connection to make.

[CyberCubed]

Pimiko is such an obscure character I doubt we will ever see her again. I honestly think we'd see Lotus Blossom again before we ever see Pimiko.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Usagi Miyamoto

The big reason for this is that Shredder isn't a legacy character

Isn't he? In Vol. 3 we had Raphael taking on the mantle. In 4Kids there was different Shredders throughout history.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by The Big Bad

Question, Andrew. Do you believe Mirage Karai's particular circumstances make her an inherently stronger character than other versions?

Absolutely. Mirage Karai is not someone who arrives at the ball... it is her ball.

If so, would turtles who were not Splinter's children and students and soldiers be stronger than the turtles we have who are all those things?

Doesn't really have any bearing on things whatsoever. The father-sons dynamic is a pretty critical dynamic to any sort of definitive TMNT (and has been there since the source material... the "Oroku" version of Karai can't say the same) at least until their later years... at which time it seems kind of silly that they'd still have to be reporting to Dad.

It's really about 1) Respect with the intent of Karai's creation (she was not created to be Saki's lackey or daughter or lover or anything like that), and 2) You being OK and preferring to see a strong female villain who can stand alone as a powerful force to be reckoned with without needing to be tied to an existing male villain. Until and since Karai, there has been no other TMNT female villain we can say that about... why take that from her?

A lot of people don't like to see #2. And a lot of people don't mind and even prefer the "world shrinking" sort of stuff (you know, where everyone knows everyone, and everyone ever is somehow connected or integral to everyone's origin). I do.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Absolutely. Mirage Karai is not someone who arrives at the ball... it is her ball.

This, so much this! I agree that Karai is a stronger character when she is independent, powerful and dangerous in her own right. I liked her well enough in 4Kids, which I thought did a good job of portraying Karai as a strong character in her own right before they ever revealed her allegiance to the Shredder. But in IDW, she's pretty much the weakest Foot leader so far. The only thing she has done on her own is create Bebop and Rocksteady. Except for her micro-series issue, she does nothing but take orders, resent Leo, and fight Leo.

Plus, I loved the relationship between Pimiko and Raphael, which only works if Pimiko is Shredder's daughter. Two children raised in the legacy of a blood feud, learning to put aside their fathers' vengeance and learn to become friends independently. It's like Romeo & Juliet, minus the whole romance angle. (Which is a whole 'nother thread...)

Take away Pimiko and the legacy of the Shredder, and you take away all of Raphael's character development in Volume 3--and let's be brutally honest: Volume 3 has been the only significant character development Raph has ever seen since the early Volume 1 Mirage days. Gameraph can kiss my shell. That was pointless and LAME.

[ToTheNines]

I've always wanted to see Karai and Shredder be adversaries. Like have Foot HQ be pissed at the NYC branch for wasting resources on Saki's feud with the Hamato clan.

But the problem there is that every single adaption after Mirage makes Shredder king sh*t of the Foot. So I get why the 4kids show made her an underling, especially since Ch'rell had been alive so long they didn't even really have the option to give him a superior officer. Same technically applies to the IDW book.

I'm less forgiving of the Nicktoon here though, especially with their female cast being sparse as it is. I mean, they could have just called her Pimiko and literally changed nothing else about her and it would have made me happy, especially since she's technically not even Karai at all, but an original character in Splinter's daughter.

So a simple name change could have freed up a Karai more similar to her Mirage counterpart, with some simple reworking of Shredders backstory and his rebuilding of the Foot Clan.