Is Donnie a different type of warrior then the rest of his bros?

[victory_angel]

Don't get me wrong all the Turtles are Ninja, I'm not challenging that. However Donnie is often classified as the least effective in battle by villains, fans, and even his own by his own bros.


But maybe it isn't so much that he's a bad/weak fighter, it's more that he is a different type of fighter then the rest of his brothers. And he holds himself back because he's trying to be exactly like everyone else.


Leo and Raph are the top tiered students. Mikey is a skilled warrior but he is held back from his full potential because he doesn't focus. But Donnie is often the one struggles in battle.

In the interactive comic book prequel to this series there is a moment that sort of implies that Donnie doesn't follow the same path as his brothers.
I know this prequel isn't considered cannon by fans as it is somewhat contradictory to what goes on in the show. But in away it is cannon to the series simply because it focuses on each of the Turtles earning the right to be ninja (and by that regard being ranked as Genin).

In Donnie's ninja trial, he is trapped on ledge and the only way he can escape is through an air vent several feet above him on the opposite wall.

It's here he flashes back to a time when his brothers and himself are going over an obstacle course. One of the obstacles is a climbing wall. All the turtles succeed in climbing it, except for Donnie.

Donnie gets frustrated about it. Splinter then approaches him and asks if it is truly the obstacle that distresses him. Donnie then admittedly says it feels that no matter how much he trains, he just can't keep up with his brothers.

Splinter then asks Donnie an anecdotal question "If a tree falls in a stream...does the water stop flowing."

Donnie correctly answers by saying "The water doesn't stop flowing, but creates a new path by flowing around the tree."

Splinter then tells his son he's very intelligent but he does at times take things to literally. The point of the Wall climb was to get to the top of it. Nothing was officially said about climbing it.

Another good example is that Leo's approach in the first two seasons has been "This is the way Splinter taught us, and that's the what he expects"
And yet in Monkey Brains you do have Splinter telling Donnie to focus on the situation at hand, not what must be done within the situation.

The fights where Donnie excels the most is are the situations where he is able to assess what is around him in order to gain victory. So it is possible that Splinter is imparting to Donnie that he doesn't need to follow exactly what his brothers are as fighters. But still leaves the type of warrior Donnie is as something for him to discover and embrace in his own time.

[Werecat]

Originally Posted by victory_angel

But maybe it isn't so much that he's a bad/weak fighter, it's more that he is a different type of fighter then the rest of his brothers. And he holds himself back because he's trying to be exactly like everyone else.

No one holds themselves back. The "I hold myself back for your protection'' is an old lie to cover up your inability to actually compete in a competitive setting.

Perhaps the answer is simple; Donnie isn't a fighter. Donnie prefers peacefulness so that he can do his science stuff. If he wasn't raised by Splinter to be a ninja I assume he wouldn't choose the fighting lifestyle. It is not Donnie's interest to be the best fighter instead to be the smartest. The lack of interest in fighting equals poor fighting skills due to poor practice. In a setting were one's physical prowess is being tested he feels bad because he must face he is inferior to his brothers due to his lack of interest in fighting.

It is simple, how can you be the best at something if you are not interested or put in the time to practice. It is narcissism or pride that creates the illusion that you should be the best at everything. Everyone has strengths and weaknesses.

Donnie's weakness is being unable to keep up with his brothers. Then again no duh, how does he expect to be on the same level if he doesn't put the same amount of effort to better himself.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

It's not so much that he doesn't put in the time or effort- it's just that PHYSICAL fighting is not his forte. His strength is in his ability to strategize and think several steps ahead of others, and to do it quickly. In the Monkey Brains episode, he is shown mentally comparing at least five or six different scenarios to take down Falco, and he does it so fast that it's hard to even keep up with what he's thinking. Or in other cases where he can calculate angles and trajectories, probabilities, and other variables, all within a second or two, for the best possible outcome. His fighting style is one of calculation and observations, knowing how to use the environment and situation to his advantage in terms of HIS fighting ability. In other words, he can beat an enemy with minimal physical effort, and maximum efficiency by using the objects around him to his advantage.

[Werecat]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

It's not so much that he doesn't put in the time or effort- it's just that PHYSICAL fighting is not his forte.

You need to put in the time and effort to increase physical strength. Which is why I said, Donnie isn't physically strong because he doesn't put in the effort. Instead Donnie puts all the effort into strategy. So physical strength is Donnie's weakness because his pride expects him to be great at it with minimal effort. Splinter reminds him there is more than one way to complete a task, encouraging diversity.

[IndigoErth]

All ninjas as you said, but they all seem to have their own leanings otherwise; Like Leo, at least in other versions, tending to lean toward the samurai vibe, Raph being more of the brawler sort, Mikey... I dunno, I suppose he's some crazy urbanite that will kick your ass if called for. lol

Donnie however... while Leo in contrast is more old-time traditional and the ninja stuff and traditions tend to suit him, Donnie however strikes me more of the modern warrior sort; where modern methods of warfare, especially in the use of tech and intelligence to deal with enemies, might be more up his alley.

He may not be as much of a physical fighter, and perhaps just taking it up because it's what he's taught and expected (not to mention simply a good idea at least for self defense), but in a real world sense, Donnie is the one who'd be in there trying to help stop ISIS. While his brothers probably could not do too much at all to help with that kind of real threat.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by Werecat

You need to put in the time and effort to increase physical strength. Which is why I said, Donnie isn't physically strong because he doesn't put in the effort. Instead Donnie puts all the effort into strategy. So physical strength is Donnie's weakness because his pride expects him to be great at it with minimal effort. Splinter reminds him there is more than one way to complete a task, encouraging diversity.

Yet, we've seen that he DOES put in just as much time and effort and any of the others except Leo. He's just not as "apt" physically. Which is fine. Some people simply aren't built for that, and he's probably one of them. Combined with his more pacifistic outlook and technological mind-set, it makes sense that he's not as "good" at fighting. He's NOT a brawler like Raph, naturally athletic and agile like Mikey, or as dedicated as Leo. He does what he needs to, and then goes and does his own thing. He has his own ideas of how to win a battle, and they sometimes run against the way he's been trained, is all. And he's just naturally not as physically adept.

Originally Posted by IndigoErth

All ninjas as you said, but they all seem to have their own leanings otherwise; Like Leo, at least in other versions, tending to lean toward the samurai vibe, Raph being more of the brawler sort, Mikey... I dunno, I suppose he's some crazy urbanite that will kick your ass if called for. lol

Donnie however... while Leo in contrast is more old-time traditional and the ninja stuff and traditions tend to suit him, Donnie however strikes me more of the modern warrior sort; where modern methods of warfare, especially in the use of tech and intelligence to deal with enemies, might be more up his alley.

He may not be as much of a physical fighter, and perhaps just taking it up because it's what he's taught and expected (not to mention simply a good idea at least for self defense), but in a real world sense, Donnie is the one who'd be in there trying to help stop ISIS. While his brothers probably could not do too much at all to help with that kind of real threat.

^ Precisely this! Donnie feels it's expected of him, and he doesn't argue that point, he just doesn't go beyond what is expected physically. Why should he? He has his own methods of dealing with threats, which are just as effective in his mind. If anything, he's simply conflicted between Splinters traditional ways of doing things, and his own more modern ideas. So he tries to find a balance, and that may not always involve actual physical fighting, but rather using his mental skills to do his fighting. Like when he built Metalhead. THAT was a perfect example!

[Werecat]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Yet, we've seen that he DOES put in just as much time and effort and any of the others except Leo. He's just not as "apt" physically. Which is fine. Some people simply aren't built for that, and he's probably one of them. Combined with his more pacifistic outlook and technological mind-set, it makes sense that he's not as "good" at fighting. He's NOT a brawler like Raph, naturally athletic and agile like Mikey, or as dedicated as Leo. He does what he needs to, and then goes and does his own thing. He has his own ideas of how to win a battle, and they sometimes run against the way he's been trained, is all. And he's just naturally not as physically adept.

How can Donnie not be physically adept if he is a mutant! He simply does not put the time and effort into physical activities that his brothers do.There is no such thing as natural talent, that is so pseudo its silly. Hard work and practice is often mistaken as natural talent.

[pennydreadful]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Why should he? He has his own methods of dealing with threats, which are just as effective in his mind. If anything, he's simply conflicted between Splinters traditional ways of doing things, and his own more modern ideas. So he tries to find a balance, and that may not always involve actual physical fighting, but rather using his mental skills to do his fighting. Like when he built Metalhead. THAT was a perfect example!

I think you've nailed it, Marvel - I view Donnie as the gentlest of the four brothers and he looks at other ways of solving conflicts rather than just physical fighting; he has his own ideas on how to tackle things.

[Donatello19]

Donnie tends to try and analyze the situation and think of a way around the problem aside from just straight up fighting, unlike his brothers who jump right in. That's how I've always seen it, anyway.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Werecat, I REALLY don't know where you're getting that from. YES their IS such a thing as natural talent. It's not ALL about putting in the work or time and effort. Otherwise, EVERYONE would be gold-medal winning Olympic athletes, five-star chefs, and world-famous artists or NASCAR drivers. Some people are just naturally BETTER at certain things than others. Like music. some people have NO musical ear, or talent either. Some people can sing beautifully. Others- can't. Some people are skilled surgeons because they not only had the schooling and dedication, but the steady hands, patience, and manual dexterity required for such delicate work. Others just DON'T. Doesn't matter how HARD someone works at something, if they don't have the natural ability to be GOOD at it, then they probably will never excel. That's life. Leo puts in WAY more hours then the rest, and he also fully accepts and believes in the same ideals and traditions as Splinter. He's got the temperament and focus to be a well-rounded fighter, the strength and skill, and it shows. Mikey has the TALENT, but not the focus or dedication. Donnie really has neither of those things, being less agile and gifted than Mikey, and not as strong or as focused as Leo.

We know Donnie puts in the same amount of effort as the others, because they ALL train together. We also know that he's considered "weaker" and less capable than Leo or Raph- Raph has even said this when he called Donnie and Mikey the B-Team. We also know Donnie complains about not being as good as them, even though he trains just as much. So obviously, there's a missing element that they have, and he doesn't. Talent. He's not much of a ninja, but then, they aren't any good as hackers, so it evens out. Physical prowess just isn't one of his talents. Sure, he is stronger than most people because he's a mutant, and because of YEARS of training, but compared to Raph, he's still weak. And so is Mikey, for that matter. But Raph can't diagnose a disease or create a poison antidote, and neither of them is as good as Mikey at coming up with good distractions, or pulling pranks. They all have their own individual talents. I'm truly astounded that you'd even think that talent doesn't exist or make a difference when it's clear from just a casual observation that it does.

[PangolinFeets]

If Donatello was just as strong as his brothers and as smart as he is he would be way too overpowered. I like the idea that he spends all his time building machines, hacking networks, making and fixing their damn weapons and skateboards and is left with no time or energy to train.

Seriously, how many vehicles has he built from scratch by himself? In addition to all the other crazy crap he makes.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

I was going to bring that up, but decided against it, since it was already enough with everything else. But yes, that certainly has a lot to do with it, too. TBH, I wonder how he finds the time to do it all!

[victory_angel]

I agree that Donnie isn't the most physically adept to ninjitsu. However I don't think he spends every waking moment in the Lab. In choice preference yes, he would rather hand there then train. But even if he was given an actual choice about being a ninja he would still train as he would find some call to be one even if it's simply because his brothers are doing it and he doesn't want to be left out.

But just because he's not as adept at fighting doesn't mean he doesn't put stock or effort into training. As the quote I put in bold said "No matter *how many times I train...*I just can't keep up with my brothers."

This indicates that yes he does spend more time training then we do give him credit. I wouldn't say he trains more then Leo as we would see him training along side Leo on a regular basis. But perhaps he does dedicate himself to his training a bit more often then Raph or Mikey.


A good example would be that training exercise in Baxters gambit where Splinter was striking his sons from behind with a Randori. Leo is the only one who actually succeeded in avoiding the blow because he was able to sense the strike and thus sense when he should move. Donnie is the only one who senses when he should move but not well enough to avoid a blow.


However Leo and Raph are more offensive fighters. Mikey is an offensive fighter, but he is also defensive. Donnie on the other hand is a defensive fighter, but he feels he should be an offensive one. And that is causing problems because he's putting himself in a position that goes against his personal nature and skills.

[Tarris Vaal]

I think its differences in styles according to their personalities as much as anything else:

Leo is the classically trained warrior. He keeps to a specific set of trained moves, mastering them as he goes and learning new sets with time.

Raph is a brawler. He knows the move sets he has been trained to use, but is just as happy flinging fists, chairs, broken bottles and anything else that might come in handy.

Donnie is a strategist. His style is defensive in nature, because his job is to lend strategic support, not to crack heads on the frontline unless its called for.

Mikey is the jack of all trades. He fills in where needed. His style as presented in the show lends itself to extreme flexibility. Compare Mikey to Jackie Chan. They are not that dissimilar at all.


Their LARP costumes give this impression as well; Leo (Paladin), Raph (Barbarian), Donnie (Wizard) and Mikey (Rogue). The roles those characters play in a party are a good match to the fighting styles of the Turtles playing them.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by victory_angel

I agree that Donnie isn't the most physically adept to ninjitsu. However I don't think he spends every waking moment in the Lab. In choice preference yes, he would rather hand there then train. But even if he was given an actual choice about being a ninja he would still train as he would find some call to be one even if it's simply because his brothers are doing it and he doesn't want to be left out.

But just because he's not as adept at fighting doesn't mean he doesn't put stock or effort into training. As the quote I put in bold said "No matter *how many times I train...*I just can't keep up with my brothers."

This indicates that yes he does spend more time training then we do give him credit. I wouldn't say he trains more then Leo as we would see him training along side Leo on a regular basis. But perhaps he does dedicate himself to his training a bit more often then Raph or Mikey.


A good example would be that training exercise in Baxters gambit where Splinter was striking his sons from behind with a Randori. Leo is the only one who actually succeeded in avoiding the blow because he was able to sense the strike and thus sense when he should move. Donnie is the only one who senses when he should move but not well enough to avoid a blow.


However Leo and Raph are more offensive fighters. Mikey is an offensive fighter, but he is also defensive. Donnie on the other hand is a defensive fighter, but he feels he should be an offensive one. And that is causing problems because he's putting himself in a position that goes against his personal nature and skills.

I agree with most of this, except the part about him actually wanting to BE a ninja, and training more than Raph. Mikey, yes, certainly, but it's clear that Raph trains the most of the other three, besides Leo. Mikey would rather not have to at all (and really doesn't need to as much, given his natural ability to pick up the skills easily and quickly) and Donnie would rather find other ways to deal with trouble, and he IS more of a pacifist in canon of most versions, so there's that. The fighting goes against his pacifistic side, so he has to try to reconcile the two ideals as best he can, but at the end of the day, he'd rather be in his lab helping the team that way. I'd actually call him more of a "cyber-ninja", a sneaky hacker who can build things and work on machines and transport for the team, instead of actual fighting.

[victory_angel]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

I agree with most of this, except the part about him actually wanting to BE a ninja, and training more than Raph. Mikey, yes, certainly, but it's clear that Raph trains the most of the other three, besides Leo. Mikey would rather not have to at all (and really doesn't need to as much, given his natural ability to pick up the skills easily and quickly) and Donnie would rather find other ways to deal with trouble, and he IS more of a pacifist in canon of most versions, so there's that. The fighting goes against his pacifistic side, so he has to try to reconcile the two ideals as best he can, but at the end of the day, he'd rather be in his lab helping the team that way. I'd actually call him more of a "cyber-ninja", a sneaky hacker who can build things and work on machines and transport for the team, instead of actual fighting.

I love your views, and I agree with you about Donnie being a pacifist. The series also seems to be exploring this aspect of his character. The Pulverizer is certainly one such character that is drawing that side of Donnie's personality out.

And in metalhead there is one moment where Donnie is trapped into saying he's a pacifist. And his bo staff is a pacifists weapon.

One thing I truly hate in fanfic's is where people comment or assume that Splinter considered Donnie worthless from the start. Which is why he gives Donnie a giant stick for a weapon.

If anything Splinter would make note of such traits in one of his sons and and he would encourage said son to acknowledge those traits. But the ultimately make the journey of discovery something his son would have to make on his own.

As he told Karai: You are who you choose to be, not what others make you.

Pacifisim isn't strictly nonviolence however, because violence isn't something that can be strictly avoided. Sometimes even something that is done with the best of intentions can have violence involved. Such as saving a large group of people at the cost of a few. It is true pacifists would seek ways to avoid violence if it can be helped. But mostly they are anti-killing.

An interesting quote about pacifism I found was given by an aikido practitioner named Yukiyoshi Takamura. He said this during an interview on a blog called the Aikido Journal.

“Some aikido teachers talk a lot about non-violence, but fail to understand this truth. A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence. He chooses peace. He must be able to make a choice. He must have the genuine ability to destroy his enemy and then choose not to. I have heard this excuse made. “I choose to be a pacifist before learning techniques so I do not need to learn the power of destruction.” This shows no comprehension of the mind of the true warrior. This is just a rationalization to cover the fear of injury or hard training. The true warrior who chooses to be a pacifist is willing to stand and die for his principles. People claiming to be pacifists who rationalize to avoid hard training or injury will flee instead of standing and dying for principle. They are just cowards. Only a warrior who has tempered his spirit in conflict and who has confronted himself and his greatest fears can in my opinion make the choice to be a true pacifist.”

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by victory_angel

I love your views, and I agree with you about Donnie being a pacifist. The series also seems to be exploring this aspect of his character. The Pulverizer is certainly one such character that is drawing that side of Donnie's personality out.

And in metalhead there is one moment where Donnie is trapped into saying he's a pacifist. And his bo staff is a pacifists weapon.

One thing I truly hate in fanfic's is where people comment or assume that Splinter considered Donnie worthless from the start. Which is why he gives Donnie a giant stick for a weapon.

If anything Splinter would make note of such traits in one of his sons and and he would encourage said son to acknowledge those traits. But the ultimately make the journey of discovery something his son would have to make on his own.

As he told Karai: You are who you choose to be, not what others make you.

Pacifisim isn't strictly nonviolence however, because violence isn't something that can be strictly avoided. Sometimes even something that is done with the best of intentions can have violence involved. Such as saving a large group of people at the cost of a few. It is true pacifists would seek ways to avoid violence if it can be helped. But mostly they are anti-killing.

An interesting quote about pacifism I found was given by an aikido practitioner named Yukiyoshi Takamura. He said this during an interview on a blog called the Aikido Journal.

Wow, I love that quote. It speaks perfectly to what I feel it is at its core, and how I see Donnie.

[Wolfie65]

There certainly is such a thing as inborn talent.
Which can then be developed by hard work or left to rot, or, in extreme cases, even suppressed.
I really enjoy the rather different personalities of the brothers, and I think the current Nick cartoon actually does a very good job of reminding us that all four of them are highly trained martial artists, whatever other abilities they may have besides.
Donnie kicks plenty of shell in battle, if there is one who is often depicted as the 'weak link', it might be Mikey.
It does kinda make sense that Donnie may not be quite as physically developed as Raph or Leo, he does spend a lot of time tinkering and mixing in the lab and the workshop - which has saved everyone's hide many times.

[victory_angel]

I was watching a review about the space arc by a friend of mine Danslaforet and she had commented while Donnie has had his moments to shine in the space arc. He is also shown being the weakest of the Turtles by having him being taken out of the fight before anyone else, or having him overpowered by an enemy. And at least one occasion where he may as well have been left on the Ulixes with April and Casey as he didn't have much of a role beyond

We can all agree he's not the strongest fighter and part of this has to do with the inferiority complex he feels about himself when compared to those around him. And the rest being in territories and places where they are unfamiliar against forces that out of their skill set.


But also recently he had been taken out midway in an episode and the Turtles find themselves in a situation where Raph reluctantly says they need Donnie.

And given the clip for the upcoming episode...it looks as though Donnie is taken out fairly early on. And yet, what if these moments are meant to set up as a build towards a life-changing event.

By life changing...I don't mean Don is yelled at our does something that makes his brothers feel like he is worthless. But rather experiences something that causes him to do something that he does involve some soul searching. This can be as simple to catching what appears to be April and Casey kissing.

Donnie is happy for them, but yet feels he can't stay because seeing them together is too painful and thus he tells everyone he feels he should go on a personal journey to sort himself out.

Then again there is that growing tension between Donnie and Leo. It's been there since the end of season two and more often than not this tension really shows itself when Donnie is being pushed too much.

The state of the city in these episodes is going to take a great toll on everyone mentally, physically, and emotionally. And some of them have a harder time handling it than others.

[WebLurker]

I think it's commonly accepted that Leo and Raph are the best martial artists and that Mikey is the most talented of the bunch (even if he doesn't live up to his full potential). As far as Donnie goes, I think it's safe to say that his strengths lie in science and invention.

However, in the vision quest episode, his test is specifically related to physical ability. Ghost Splinter outright tells Donnie that he underestimates how capable he is in this regard.

So, is Donnie the weakest fighter of the Turtles? I think so. Is he a bad fighter period? I'm going to say no. It's like being a bronze Olympian. It might not be as impressive as the first and second placers are, but they're still a good athlete no matter how you slice it.