High tolerance for treason?

[Yabuturtle]

From what I have noticed, treason seemed to happen a lot with the villains in the OT. There's actually more of it than I thought.
Such as with Bebop and Rocksteady. Despite mostly being loyal, they seem quick to betray Shredder and Krang in Rocksteady and Bebop Conquer the Universe" Bye Bye Fly" and "Atlantis Awakes" Baxter Stockman was tired of being pushed around and betrayed him in "Curse of the Evil Eye " Also In "Four Muskaturtles" Shredder betrayed Krang for the gem and one can say Krang betrayed Shredder in "Shredder and Splintered" where he doesn't want to just be allies anymore but wants Shredder to do his bidding.

It's really strange because even after committing treason, they still keep each other around. I don't know why they kept Bebop and Rocksteady around when they were not only incompetent but were willing to betray Shredder as soon as they were put in a position of power.

[Jephael]

Cartoon writer's logic in the 90s... go fig!

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

At least in the 4Kids cartoon, we get Saki whittling Stockman down to a brain and also punishing Hun. And killing the first Purple Dragon.

Different times.

[Yabuturtle]

It is strange as Krang, Shredder, Baxter, Bebop and Rocksteady were all on the same side but they all betrayed one another at some point in the series. People mention Shredder and Krang betraying Baxter first but really Baxter betrayed them first, despite being really loyal to Shredder and Bebop and Rocksteady are quick to betray them when they are in a higher position of power.

I just wondered why they all kept each other around even after betraying each other. xD

[Xav]

How the heck did Baxter betray Shredder first? Shredder tried to have him killed in his very first appearance.

[Yabuturtle]

Originally Posted by Xav

How the heck did Baxter betray Shredder first? Shredder tried to have him killed in his very first appearance.

He did actually, although Baxter wasn't aware of it. Not really sure why Shredder did anyway but his only excuse was that Baxter "knew too much" Baxter didn't even know Shredder was evil though and didn't officially join Shredder and Krang until Baxter was broken out of the asylum. By then Baxter grew more sadistic and evil and that was the first time he refereed Shredder as "master"

But Baxter didn't betray Shredder because Shredder tried to kill him first, as Baxter didn't even know Shredder was trying to kill him. Baxter however betrayed Shredder when he was tired of being pushed around and insulted by Shredder and stole the eye for himself.

In fact I think the only one who didn't act like a traitor was General Tragg as he was fanatically loyal. I don't recall him ever betraying Shredder and Krang's group.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Technically, Krang did it first. He let Michelangelo loose just so Shredder would build his body, in the condemned house Shredder and Baxter were holed up in to control the Mousers in A Thing About Rats. Krang even told him where to find the master controls to destroy them. This led directly to Shredder's plan failing.

[Wildcat]

Well all the main villains were portrayed incompetent and given the more lighthearted tone they just stuck together because they only had each other.

The show needed a core group of villains. Why does Megatron keep Starscream around? A lot of cartoon villains have partners they should separate from.

[Yabuturtle]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Technically, Krang did it first. He let Michelangelo loose just so Shredder would build his body, in the condemned house Shredder and Baxter were holed up in to control the Mousers in A Thing About Rats. Krang even told him where to find the master controls to destroy them. This led directly to Shredder's plan failing.

Yes, but Shredder didn't know that. Baxter didn't know Shredder planned to kill him either in that episode. But afterwards in Curse of the evil eye, Shredder knew Baxter betrayed him and yet kept him around. Krang and Shredder saw Bebop and Rocksteady betray them yet kept them around. Krang also knew Shredder betrayed him in The Four Muskaturtles but still kept him around. That's what I find strange is that they still work together even though they all betrayed each other at one point in time. Except General Tragg who didn't betray anyone.

[ABrown]

I've seen many times in action cartoons where the punishment for failure is far more severe than for treason.

[Powder]

Originally Posted by Yabuturtle

It's really strange because even after committing treason, they still keep each other around. I don't know why they kept Bebop and Rocksteady around when they were not only incompetent but were willing to betray Shredder as soon as they were put in a position of power.

That's how you sell toys.

[Yabuturtle]

Originally Posted by ABrown

I've seen many times in action cartoons where the punishment for failure is far more severe than for treason.

You'd think treason would be much more severe. I just wonder how can a group work together when they are all willing to betray each other. In Transformers, it was evident that Starscream would betray Megatron but in TMNT, all the villains are willing to betray each other if it's to their advantage. Oddly enough even though Krang and Shredder betrayed each other before, there were times where they could have left each other at the mercy of the Turtles. When Dregg drained Krang's life force, nothing was forcing Shredder to take Krang with him. He could have left him there but instead saved him by giving him a life transfusion.

But one could say they only save each other only because they need each other in order to destroy the Turtles. Really nothing was preventing Shredder from destroying Krang in Season 1. What was Krang going to do anyway? He had no body. He could have just tossed him aside but Krang was more intelligent and probably just wanted to keep him around a little longer so he can receive more advice from him.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by Yabuturtle

Yes, but Shredder didn't know that. Baxter didn't know Shredder planned to kill him either in that episode. But afterwards in Curse of the evil eye, Shredder knew Baxter betrayed him and yet kept him around. Krang and Shredder saw Bebop and Rocksteady betray them yet kept them around. Krang also knew Shredder betrayed him in The Four Muskaturtles but still kept him around. That's what I find strange is that they still work together even though they all betrayed each other at one point in time. Except General Tragg who didn't betray anyone.

Does it really matter if either of them knew, though? The point is that they even planned to back-stab each other in the first place. They were ALL a bunch of self-serving b@astards willing to betray their allies the minute it suited their purpose. That includes Baxter, who was already an unstable loon even BEFORE he met Shredder. They were not "buddies" or friends- it was a purely self-serving "business partnership". Or in the case of Shredder and Krang, more like a marriage that only stays together for the mutual benefits. (And possibly the sake of the "kids" Rocksteady and Bebop! )

[Xav]

How was Stockman an unstable loon even BEFORE he met Shredder? All we saw him do was show off his Mousers to a pest control company.

[Yabuturtle]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Does it really matter if either of them knew, though? The point is that they even planned to back-stab each other in the first place. They were ALL a bunch of self-serving b@astards willing to betray their allies the minute it suited their purpose. That includes Baxter, who was already an unstable loon even BEFORE he met Shredder. They were not "buddies" or friends- it was a purely self-serving "business partnership". Or in the case of Shredder and Krang, more like a marriage that only stays together for the mutual benefits. (And possibly the sake of the "kids" Rocksteady and Bebop! )

I thought it would matter though. Sometimes one villain didn't know the other one betrayed them, but in this case they all kept each other around even after knowing they were betrayed before. You can say Bebop did it the most. Once in Bye Bye Fly where he thought it was stupid for him take orders from Shredder who was now a fly. He did it in Bebop and Rocksteady conquer the Universe where he made Shredder and Krang afraid of them. And in Atlantis Awakes where he was crowned king and thought it was dumb to take orders from Shredder.

Baxter wasn't a loon at first. He was just a scientists trying to sell his machines. He didn't even know Shredder was evil. He was however put under arrest and put in an insane asylum. There really isn't any detailed explanation as to how Baxter turned evil, but I guess after being arrested, especially since he didn't intend to use the mousers for evil and being stuck in an insane asylum, made him more sadistic and loony.

[cammy85]

You try explaining to the police that you were defeated by four talking turtles and a rat, plus you worked for a guy in a metal costume, a rhino and a warthog and talking brain on a stick. That earned him his ticket obviously and being with the other inmates only worsened his condition. The pilot probably only took place over a few days but we don't know how long between "Shredder and Splintered" and "Return of the Shredder".

[Yabuturtle]

Originally Posted by cammy85

You try explaining to the police that you were defeated by four talking turtles and a rat, plus you worked for a guy in a metal costume, a rhino and a warthog and talking brain on a stick. That earned him his ticket obviously and being with the other inmates only worsened his condition. The pilot probably only took place over a few days but we don't know how long between "Shredder and Splintered" and "Return of the Shredder".

He must have stayed there for over 5 months or something because his hair grew considerably longer than before. I guess being arrested and staying with other crazies made him lose it. It also made him more vindictive as well as a little sadistic.

[cammy85]

Yup!! What bothered me about that episode was how he found the Turtles' lair no problem but never went again.

[Prowler]

Aside from the logical explanation of it being a kids show which doesn't allow villains to execute people or main villain factions to break up that quickly...

...who else did Shredder and Krang have besides Bebop and Rocksteady? There have been times where they asked for others' help, but they'd either betray or fail them. And aside form that episode, bebop and Rocksteady never tried to betray Shredder and Krang again. They got scolded a lot like kids and had nowhere to go now that they were mutant animals and society would never accept them. Plus, they were too stupid and immature to survive on their own, so they had no choice but follow Krang and Shredder which gave them free food and eh... housing.

Shredder however, was very willing to turn his back on Krang, but never really got the chance to do it. Plus, Krang gave Shredder access to high technology which made him dream of higher ambitions and make it technically easier for him to kill the Turtles and Splinter. Eventually, their relationship became stronger in the 10th season. Probably because the Technodrome was gone and they had to stick together.