Aspects of the Fred Wolf cartoon you wouldn't mind vanished for good?

[neatoman]

Now this thread isn't really directed towards myself or really anyone else who is willing to just say the Fred Wolf sucks. No amount of nostalgic attachments to it will ever actually make it a good show and very few of the elements it invented (or more accurately advertised when it comes to what actually returned) are good ideas to keep.

But for those who do in fact still feel emotionally attached to this thing, is there anything about it you wouldn't mind being ignored and forgotten for the rest of this franchise's existence? As in it never ever comes back, it just stays in whatever it has already been in.

Now I'm talking about the stuff that is "associated" with the show, not necessarily "what's in the show". The show obviously has a lot of characters and ideas in it, it's just that most of it is already obscure because of how forgettable it is. I'm talking about the stuff you can remember. Of course you probably don't remember Krang because he's a good character, he's really not by any means, but because he shows up so much he got drilled into your memory by sheer exposure. Other ones you probably remember more because you played with their toy or they ended up in a video game, because quite a lot of the characters people seem to remember are ones that were barely in the show, if at all. Nobody seems to care about Rex-1 or Pinky McFingers or any of the other recurring characters that didn't have toys or weren't part of the main cast.

So I have intentionally left out most characters and concepts that didn't show up for more than ten episodes or didn't have toy/games, because let's face it, you probably can't even remember them unless you watched the entire show at least five times over.

[Jephael]

Any episode not written by David Wise was most likely a stinker. He gave us the entire first season in 1987, all of the 1993 and 1994 episodes and a few here and there throughout the 10 year run, and any time I go back to rewatch the series, those episodes he wrote stand out to me as I felt they had really good plot development. If he had written the entire series from start to finish it may have gone much better than it did.

[Leo656]

The pizza obsession bothers me more than it probably should. But oh man, that could disappear and I wouldn't cry about it.

I guess it bothers me because more than anything else, THAT is what TMNT is associated with and what The Powers That Be think we care about. Like how they came out trumpeting "There WILL be pizza!" when the last movie was coming out, like that was any kind of reassurance. Unspoken were the words, "Literally every other thing is sh*t. BUT. Pizza, amIrite?!?!?!"

Like, of everything TMNT ever was or could be, what it IS, is basically just "Oh, yeah, those pizza Cowabunga guys". And I f*cking haaaaaaaaaaate that.

I guess the problem is that it's a convenient video game power-up and they wouldn't wanna think of anything new by now. I mean, why think, y'know?

I actually don't mind most of the other stuff listed, as any of those concepts could in theory be handled well even if the original show didn't have much grace in doing so. But the pizza and Cowabunga stuff really sticks in my craw, as it really solidifies how for whatever potential TMNT may have had at one time, all it turned into is a very bad, very dated, one-note "joke" that wasn't all that funny when it was fresh.

[Jephael]

I once got blocked by some girl on Twitter for criticizing a bad joke she made about Shredder stealing the Turtles' pizza. Some SJW losers came to her defense and called me out for trying to "mansplain" TMNT.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

While I love the turtles and the villains from the show and would like to see aspects of both in future incarnations, I think the Channel Six Crew isn't anything too special (including April being a reporter), and wouldn't mind that dynamic being completely scrapped from future incarnations.

Even in the Fred Wolf show itself, the Channel Six subplots were often an unnecessary distraction from the main action involving the turtles and the villains. I was actually glad that the Channel Six Crew were written out during the Red Sky seasons.

[Coola Yagami]

The gimmick gangsters, cause they can easily be replaced by new gangster characters. The vehicles except for the Turtle Van or some variation of it, but it's hard to justify say... the Retrocatapult.

I agree with the pizza obsession. Or at least tone it down. Maybe make it their favorite food, or if you must, Mikey's favorite food, but don't make it literally the ONLY thing they eat. I remember an episode of the 2K3 show where the Turtles were eating Chinese takeout and it felt so weird to me cause I'm so used to seeing the previous versions eating pizza non-stop. I like pizza as much as the next guy but I can't imagine eating pizza for breakfast, lunch and dinner. I think the closest I ever had was I used to work at a place where across the street was a pizzeria with 50 cent slices. I might go there a few times a week during lunch break, but I still go home to eat an actual meal for dinner.

I guess it relates to kids and young teens that think pizza is the coolest thing ever, but I can't see myself eating that much of it on a daily basis. Plus other than Sonic and his chili dogs, the whole 'cartoon group of heroes that love only one food' deal died out when all the other TMNT rip-offs faded into obscurity. Street Sharks, Extreme Dinosaurs, Biker Mice from Mars, they all had their favorite foods and now they're all gone. The only ones left with the 'favorite food they only ever eat' shtick nowadays are the Turtles and Sonic, and Sonic isn't even a Turtles rip-off.

Now I don't remember if the Toxic Crusaders had a favorite food thing. I know they were very different, it started being based off the Tromaville movie, but the cartoon was pretty much Ninja Turtles with different characters. Even their five episode premier was similar to the Turtles 5 episode premier. I wouldn't put it past them to also have a favorite food the only ever eat on that show.

I remember an Archie cartoon made Jughead's favorite food to be burgers, while in the comics I remember him eating most of anything, he was just a glutton overall. Unless I remember things wrong, but I coula sworn seeing him eating hoagies and highly-stackd sandwiches and other jazz, not just burgers in the comics.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

other than Sonic and his chili dogs,

Which was also 'tarded as hell. AND, probably only done because "TMNT Did It" and a lot of shows copied various bits of the TMNT cartoon's formula at that time.

Y'know what Superman's favorite food is? It's beef bourguignon with ketchup*. Most people don't know that. Because they didn't spend 2/3s of every episode of every cartoon show and movie he ever had beating you over the head with that otherwise-useless bit of trivia. It's not a defining character trait.

*It's also his code phrase when he needs someone to let Lois know that "Sh*t's really bad but right now I'm okay" without compromising his secret identity. See, little things like that are how you develop multi-dimensional characters. Not with goofy catchphrases and gimmicks.

[CyberCubed]

It's obvious Channel 6 doesn't really work outside the original cartoon universe. Trying to incorporate Irma, Vernon and Burne in other series has never worked. They're fine in the OT but not outside of it.

Originally Posted by Jephael

Any episode not written by David Wise was most likely a stinker. He gave us the entire first season in 1987, all of the 1993 and 1994 episodes and a few here and there throughout the 10 year run, and any time I go back to rewatch the series, those episodes he wrote stand out to me as I felt they had really good plot development. If he had written the entire series from start to finish it may have gone much better than it did.

Not necessarily, some of the more memorable or best episodes also came from other writers as well.

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

It's obvious Channel 6 doesn't really work outside the original cartoon universe. Trying to incorporate Irma, Vernon and Burne in other series has never worked. They're fine in the OT but not outside of it.

Not necessarily, if April was to be a reporter again, there's no reason she couldn't still work for a boss named Burne and have co-workers named Irma and Vernon. They just wouldn't devote so much time to them, or they'd only appear in passing. The OT kinda made them almost a show within a show so for whatever reason, they felt the need to include them in almost every episode pre-Red Sky. I don't see a reason for them not to ever return, they just wouldn't be so prominently featured anymore.

It was weird in a way. Like from a kid's show perspective, all we really needed to know was April was a reporter and covering stories for the Turtles would not only help them find out Shredder's plan but also help her career. There was really no need for extra sub-plots like Burne threatening to fire her for the 10th time or Vernon trying to steal her story. I mean you could argue that Superman was similar with Lois and Jimmy, but I mean, Superman actually worked at the Bugle as Clark, of course you'd see his co-workers. The turtles cartoon could have just shown April on their TV or April on location sneaking around Shredder's hideout. We didn't exactly need to see her at the office and the Channel 6 shenanigans, or episodes centered around her boss's birthday or him hitting the streets reliving his old days and all that.

I guess they had to fill the 25 minute mark somehow. Lord knows it wasn't filled with drawn out fight scenes and hand to hand combat.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

I agree with the pizza obsession. Or at least tone it down.

It at least ended with popcorn in the final episode.

[MikeandRaph87]

The various mad scientists and gangsters are not necessary. I would prefer Baxter Stockman be enough to represent the 'mad scientist'. I would like to see some form of a viable Underworld not goofy mobsters like Mad Dog McMutt and Pinky McFingers or even The Globfather. I do like Big Louie and thought he could be adapted into a threat like a Carleone kingpin type. While there could be Underworld competition like a rival crime family which could be interesting. No need for several goofy ones just a pair of viable street level threats that might create a 3 way conflict or be a source for Shredder on occasion.

The CBS seasons 4-6 relied on the Shredder episode and non-Shredder episode hour airings and it enforced lame threats. It needed more threatening and varied opponents if on the non-Shredder episodes were going to stand out in a good way.

[Technorover85]

How about just dropping the obsession with the Fred Wolf era entirely? Outside Last Ronin, what do we as Turtle fans have right now? Neca Fred Wolf Toys, Movie figures, while obviously not Fred Wolf are from the same era, and Super 7, which is based on a Toy line that wouldn't have existed without Fred Wolf!

Turtle fans cannot seem to get out of this era. Yes there is Mirage, 2k3 cartoon and IDW, but they never get the proper exposure they deserve. Sure Neca is making Toys based on Mirage, but their most popular line will forever be the Cartoon Line. Look at the new Shredders Revenge game, there again is Fred Wolf! The 2012 cartoon tried to be it's own thing but quickly turned into Fred Wolf. Turtle Party Wagon, the original theme on the communicators, hell the 2012 turtles met the Fred Wolf Turtles on more than one occasion.

The most annoying aspect about Fred Wolf is that The Turtles franchise is Fred Wolf! Ask anyone even casually familiar with Turtles what the Turtles eat, and the answer is always the same, Pizza! It's so ingrained in pop culture that it's almost impossible to get rid of it. Fred Wolf is Ninja Turtles. I wish that this wasn't the case but it is. Now with all that being said, when the hell is Neca shipping the Channel 6 news set? Might as well order a Pizza while I wait.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87

I do like Big Louie and thought he could be adapted into a threat like a Carleone kingpin type.

We had Beaver Cleaver and Wally Cleaver, so Big Louie and his mob could fight a turf conflict against rivals.

[sdp]

TL;DR: It depends, in general I don't want many 1987 show aspects at all and clearly that's all Viacom wants from the franchise.


I think there's a right way to bring back aspects of the 1987 show and bad, some influences are fine but I hate how it seems like going forward Rocksteady and Bebop will always need to be used and that sucks. They work in the context of the original show as well as many other things.

I mean I'm fine with old characters coming back from time to time, but mix it up, wouldn't it be great to see a new version of Barney Stockman or the Kojima Brothers? See a new interpretation of them? Bring

I think the 2012 show is a good way of how not to bring some characters, why have fake, in name only versions of so many characters like Hun, Irma, Rahzar among others if they barely resemble the original characters. I'm fine with new interpretations but here they should've just been new characters altogether.

Ironic to what I just said the 2012 show actually used Rocksteady and Bebop well, they worked in that universe and were fun enough with a reimagined origin that fit that version. I still dislike them appearing since Dogpound/Fishface were essentially created to be that shows R&B so when R&B show up they're just more random goons that 2012 Shredder has and it did a disservice to the new characters since their inclusion came at their expense.

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

It's obvious Channel 6 doesn't really work outside the original cartoon universe. Trying to incorporate Irma, Vernon and Burne in other series has never worked. They're fine in the OT but not outside of it..

I really liked Vernon in the TMNT 2014 / Bay movie. They definitely can't work in every setting though, but if they ever make April a real teenager that goes to school Irma would be essential as a friend and she could work as a reporter at "school". Too bad they just make April a teenager without actually having her be one. But yeah it would depend on the universe and that whole setting shouldn't be used frequently, only if it were to make sense. Irma in 2012 was just dumb, shouldn't have used her.

[Jephael]

Originally Posted by Technorover85

How about just dropping the obsession with the Fred Wolf era entirely? Outside Last Ronin, what do we as Turtle fans have right now? Neca Fred Wolf Toys, Movie figures, while obviously not Fred Wolf are from the same era, and Super 7, which is based on a Toy line that wouldn't have existed without Fred Wolf!

Turtle fans cannot seem to get out of this era. Yes there is Mirage, 2k3 cartoon and IDW, but they never get the proper exposure they deserve. Sure Neca is making Toys based on Mirage, but their most popular line will forever be the Cartoon Line. Look at the new Shredders Revenge game, there again is Fred Wolf! The 2012 cartoon tried to be it's own thing but quickly turned into Fred Wolf. Turtle Party Wagon, the original theme on the communicators, hell the 2012 turtles met the Fred Wolf Turtles on more than one occasion.

The most annoying aspect about Fred Wolf is that The Turtles franchise is Fred Wolf! Ask anyone even casually familiar with Turtles what the Turtles eat, and the answer is always the same, Pizza! It's so ingrained in pop culture that it's almost impossible to get rid of it. Fred Wolf is Ninja Turtles. I wish that this wasn't the case but it is. Now with all that being said, when the hell is Neca shipping the Channel 6 news set? Might as well order a Pizza while I wait.

Hey I prefer the Archie comics spin-off over the 1987 cartoon itself, but it is what it is. Most kids in the 80s and 90s didn't spend their free time reading comic books. They watched television and went to the movies. I didn't even know about Mirage Studios and the original black and white comic books until I was out of high school, and that was because I went on the internet and got to know fellow fans on these very message boards as well as other forms of communication with the fan base. I'd love to see the 2003 and 2012 cartoons get the recognition they deserve, but it's kinda hard when you take into account how popular the original toon was in comparison.

[Coola Yagami]

To be fair, I kinda liked Bebop and Rocksteady in the 2012 version since they were so different and they added to Shredder's forces. It never made sense why Shredder would always rely on 2 mutant henchmen to go after 4 mutant turtles. Sure they tried, but stuff would always happen like the Frogs would become good guys instead, Baxter would hate Shredder, Leatherhead just went off to do his own thing, etc, just whatever to keep the Shredder/Krang/Bebop/Rocksteady status quo.

But in the 2012 I liked those episodes where Shredder would send out Rahzar, Fishface, Baxter, Bebop, Rocksteady and Tiger Claw on patrol looking for the turtles. It just made much more sense for Shredder to have a brigade of mutants, anything from thieves, thugs, mercenaries, etc rather than just 2 bumbling mutants.

I mean 80s Bebop and Rocksteady were interchangeable in terms of um.... skill, but here Rock was the muscle, Bebop was stealthy and had lasers, Fishface had the crazy kicks and knives, Tiger Claw had all his weapons, Rahzar had the claws, etc. It was a nice variety.

In a similar way, I liked IDW Shredder having Koya, Bludgeon, Bebop and Rocksteady. It just makes more sense. 4 against 4, ya know?

[sdp]

I liked B&R in 2012, but they still took away from Fishface, Dogpound and Tigerclaw. The way you write it on your post makes it sound logical but the actual show never used them like that, there was definitely villain decay in the 2012 show everytime a new antagonist came out and after Rocksteady/Beebop fishface was made irrelevant and dogpound had to be mutated to keep him a threat and was now Rahzar for whatever reason. After the first season Fishface/Dogpound were basically as good as a generic foot soldier when fighting the turtles.


So yeah as I mentioned, R&B were done well I just think it took away from the original characters. But for others, think of the punk frogs, or the neutrinos, hell even general tragg those characters are just in name only, they should've been new characters entirely. There's also the ones that you don't even notice since they'r enot awful but also not relevant

That's how not to bring a character back. Now they did some other 1987 characters right like say Slash, mutagen man, even Krang in some respect. But others I don't even remember I guess they did them "ok" not in a bad way but not done originally either so they're just forgotten so why even bring them in the first place when they had other characters with untapped potential like Muckman, Mondo Gecko. Etc. So essentially there's a 1/3 chance in bringing back a character successfully and 2/3 that it will suck.

TL;DR If you're going to bring some idea back/character, do something new with that while remaining true to who the character is, if not don't bother, just make something new.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by Jephael

Most kids in the 80s and 90s didn't spend their free time reading comic books. They watched television and went to the movies.

I'm sure the Archie Comics are more remembered in some countries than others. Countries where you didn't have that many television channels, and access to the Fred Wolf cartoon wasn't granted.

[MikeandRaph87]

Originally Posted by Original TMNT Cartoon Fan

We had Beaver Cleaver and Wally Cleaver, so Big Louie and his mob could fight a turf conflict against rivals.

Yeah, but it was a clear parody. While an interesting reference its not something I would want in a somewhat serious series. Just like Turteli's feather tickling gimmick or a mob boss who gets do biscuits. Let's have VIABLE threats like a Kingpin with a Silvermane or Hammerhead chasing the position/keeping him in check kind of situation and a source that Shredder could occasionally tap into when needed.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87

Yeah, but it was a clear parody. While an interesting reference its not something I would want in a somewhat serious series. Just like Turteli's feather tickling gimmick or a mob boss who gets do biscuits. Let's have VIABLE threats like a Kingpin with a Silvermane or Hammerhead chasing the position/keeping him in check kind of situation and a source that Shredder could occasionally tap into when needed.

I think Big Louie against Tony Vivaldi would be the ultimate turf conflict.