Seein Red

[Krutch]

Originally Posted by samhain88

He didnt say ''If they always had them''. If that was the case, then no, they would originally wore diff colored bandanas. I wouldnt have an issue. He said ''adapt''.

Yeah, lol, sorry. That was meant to be two separate thoughts entirely.

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Not because of a lack of Technodromes or cowabunga or other nonsense like that... though of course the nostalgic OS folks love to use the lack of that as the reasons for said underperformance.

No. One glance at a commercial or trailer is enough to put people off. The trailer had freakin "your mom" jokes and a loud, out of place burp. You could just tell the movie was gonna suck. Not to mention, when I was hyped about it(prior to the second trailer), I had several conversations with people that went like this:

"Hey, theres a new Turtles movie coming out!"
"Awesome! I loved the ninja turtles!"
"Yeah, it's CGI-"
"What, no suits?"
"No, CGI."
"Ah, that sucks. The suits were awesome. Is Krang finally gonna be in it?"
"Umm... no. Neither is Shredder. Or Beebop. Or Rocksteady."
"What? **** that movie man, thats not a Turtles movie to me."

I loved Power Rangers growing up and if they did a reboot I'd be all for it. But if I found out it was CGI, no Lord Zedd, Goldar, Rita Repulsa... no thanks. And that's only 1/5

These multi-millions of 80s toon fans that you would have us believe still exist that are allegedly active ticket-buying fans -- despite every statistical law that Hollywood and financiers have quantified and proven and hold to as far as demographics and how much pie which age group is going to yield -- that will refuse to see a TMNT movie that is virtually identical tonally to the 80s toon... these aren't very good 80s toon fans at all, I think.

You really think TMNT was identical tonally to the OT? Really? And again, it really, really wasn't marketed to the 80s toon fans like you think it was. I'm not even sure what the target audience was come to think of it. There wasnt enough of any universe to please any of those crowds. So, I think they were gearing it for new kids all together, with extremely small nods to fans, like the trophy room.

and that's crazy, we're talking about guys and girls in their 30s and 40s now

Uh, I'm 24. I grew up on the old toon. There are plenty of others out there. Also, people in their 30s or 40s would love the chance to bring their kids with them to see it. So in alot of cases you'd be seeing an extra ticket being bought.

Which really only works against your case -- they are... now. After Batman Begins.

No, I definitely still wouldn't say that. Without bringing up Batman, go up to a random person in a movie theater and ask who Ra's al Ghul is and I'm sure the majority wouldn't have a clue.

I don't think it's unreasonable to put stock in a TMNT Begins type approach.

I agree. I'd love a realistic Turtles movie. Hell, I'd so much prefer a Begins approach over an 80s toon adaption. But it would need a big name director or, at the very least, a strong trailer to work. And this discussion is in the wrong thread

[Koi]

Any one that I know, that knows about TMNT are just random emo/goth teens that get TMNT gear from Hot Topic. They couldn't tell you the turtles names worth crud, even with their multi colored bandannas.

You still need to learn which is which with their colored/red bandannas if where a new fan, so I could really go either way with this subject. If the creators of the movie give enough individual traits without the colored bandannas it should be just as easy to figure out who is whom if they want red. If not, less for them to deal with on other characteristics, I guess.

Hmm, could the creators use the colored bandannas so they could get away with bad writing/creating of the individual turtles? How clever.

[The Stryker]

Originally Posted by Drawsher

Hmm, could the creators use the colored bandannas so they could get away with bad writing/creating of the individual turtles? How clever.

What? Are you dumb? This makes no sense.

[Koi]

Originally Posted by Stryker

What? Are you dumb? This makes no sense.

I was remarking how using colored head bands to give recognition to each character, you could (what if situation) easily just take out character traits that set them apart, and only have basic traits to back them up, because people would identify them by their masks.

[The Stryker]

Oy. Because they've done that in the past right?

Personally I find the mirage turtles to be devoid of character. I've already went into that all over this crazy place.

[Koi]

Originally Posted by Stryker

Oy. Because they've done that in the past right?

Personally I find the mirage turtles to be devoid of character. I've already went into that all over this crazy place.

It was just something random that popped in my head, not because it was done before or anything like that.

But what you said does kind of disprove my random thought. I did actually find the comic turtle really bland and easily mixed. Most likely the reason to this day I don't fancy the turtles that much in comparison to the minor characters and enemies in the shows/comics/movies.

[Powder]

Originally Posted by Drawsher

But what you said does kind of disprove my random thought. I did actually find the comic turtle really bland and easily mixed. Most likely the reason to this day I don't fancy the turtles that much in comparison to the minor characters and enemies in the shows/comics/movies.

There were many times in the old mirage stuff where that was true. In vol.3 I think Gary did a great job better distinguishing the turtles. Then in vol.4 it got a little boring again but with tales there were alot of new talented folks working on it who were able to breathe fresh life into the characters. For instance, Tristan.

[Spitfire]

The turtles personality traits started to really surface around the time the TV series premiered. Before 1987 the turtles all seemed to act the same. They were pretty one dimensional. The one shots were a precursor to what the ended up being in the end which came out a year before the cartoon but they only grazed the surface. The turtles didn't full develop into these personalities until much later. I assume what happened was that Eastman and Laird didn't plan on it being so successful and thus didn't feel the need to characterize the turtles. Once they saw how popular the turtles were they decided to add personality to them.

Colored bandannas isn't a way to excuse bad writing. The color purple doesn't mean you're smart.

[Krang]

Wow, lots of posts in here since I last checked. But to address what was said a few pages back...

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

No one's talking about uniforms, just uniformity.

Actually, it does have a lot to do with uniforms. Since bandannas wouldn't realistically be part of a ninja uniform to begin with, there's not much of a point left in arguing for the realism of red ones. Now if you want to push for red bandannas because that's how it was in the original comics, go right ahead, but I just think it's nonsense to claim that they would be in any way realistic.

Perhaps. But it's the color of Clan Hamato, for better or worse.

The same way a gang (Yakuza, for example) or a Marine squad might all go and get a common tattoo, I'm sure it's intended to create a sort of visual bond between the members of Clan Hamato.

What's the point of a visual bond if their goal is to avoid being seen? I highly doubt a real ninja clan would endanger themselves just to show the world that they are part of the same clan.

According to Eastman and Laird, while there were admittedly a couple of parodic elements in the first issue, it wasn't a parody -- now I guess you can do whatever you want, but I'm not going to argue with both creators of the TMNT.

You might want to read what you quoted again, because that's not what I said at all. I said that the concept started off as a joke, not anything about the first issue. Eastman and Laird saying that they "got real punchy" and "started drawing cartoons to amuse themselves" doesn't exactly imply that they got out all of their ninja books and thoroughly researched what a legitimate ninja clan would wear when coming up with the character designs.

Originally Posted by Powder

Real ninjas have a clan symbol/color & in the case of the hamato CLAN, that is red.

Symbols, maybe, but colors?

Walking talking turtles wouldnt even happen anyway BUt if they did, & they were raised only to know one thing, ninjitsu, such should be presented in the most realistic way possible.

The most realistic way would be for them to dress in all black, or at least get rid of the bandannas entirely.

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Even if every single one of these million fans showed up to an OS movie -- and that's crazy, we're talking about guys and girls in their 30s and 40s now -- that wouldn't even so much as put a dent in the box office.

Not to say anything about the idea itself, but just wanted to point out that your math is off. People in their 40s would have been adults when the OT debuted. The age range you're looking for is early 20s to mid 30s (the OT did run until 1996, after all).

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Krang

Actually, it does have a lot to do with uniforms. Since bandannas wouldn't realistically be part of a ninja uniform to begin with,

There's nothing to say a particular ninja clan couldn't don bandannas. There may have even been.

there's not much of a point left in arguing for the realism of red ones. Now if you want to push for red bandannas because that's how it was in the original comics, go right ahead,

No disrespect, but it really sounds like you arrived in the thread late. No, even though that's as good a reason as any for their inclusion, it's not because of that.

but I just think it's nonsense to claim that they would be in any way realistic.

Vs. the alternative? Different brightly colored bandannas?

What's the point of a visual bond if their goal is to avoid being seen?

Just shooting from the hip here, but misdirection and confusion? You see a shadowy figure moving in the shadows and catch just a glimpse of red against the darkness... you turn, then you see another glimpse of red bandanna, then from the other side of the room.

Suddenly you think, "I'm completely surrounded, there must be like 10 of them, I'm completely surrounded and f***ed!"

Sounds pretty ninja-like to me.

I highly doubt a real ninja clan would endanger themselves just to show the world that they are part of the same clan.

The same idealology in which Yakuza and Chinese Triads brand themselves with very particular tattoos.

Symbols, maybe, but colors?

Color, singular. Not plural.

The most realistic way would be for them to dress in all black, or at least get rid of the bandannas entirely.

I don't entirely disagree with this notion... which is why I liked what Tristan Jones did in a couple of his issues with the TMNT doing just that (dressing in all black, etc.).

Nevertheless, all red bandannas are a trope of Clan Hamato.

Not to say anything about the idea itself, but just wanted to point out that your math is off. People in their 40s would have been adults when the OT debuted.

17ish + 23 (2010 - 1987) = 40. Though maybe it is a big crazy to think 17 year olds would start watching the OS.

And by the time the new movie hits in 2012, someone who was 15 in 1987 would be celebrating their 40th birthday.

The age range you're looking for is early 20s to mid 30s (the OT did run until 1996, after all).

Late twenties to mid-to-late 30s. OT was hardly drawing in new audiences (in any significant number, anyway) by the time 1996 rolled around.

[sdp]

I remember why I bailed out on this thread.

I can understand you are a fan of the comics and want the movie to be like it, but you seem to be pushing that your version is better.

Red bandannas are nowhere near more realistic than colored ones. Yeah a bit more goofy maybe but so is the original red ones if you want to over analyze. Not to mention they are iconic and what people want. All red would not give any message that this is an mature version.

The age range for the turtles 40s? what? I'd say early 30s are the ones who were already pretty old when they got into a kids franchise. If transformers did well with the nostalgia crowd and its a much older fanbase then the turtles will do fine with that audience since they are younger. Not to mention they also have a few of the older people who watched 2k3 as kids. Obviously those people can't hold a movie by themselves it also needs to appeal to a new generation of kids.

There is no way they can make this into a "this isn't the turtles you know from the cartoons", at least not in the way you are suggesting. Especially since the movie is Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. You can make it more serious but Batman this is not.

[Cipher]

I wouldn't mind all black masks in the least. It could make sense for a new universe too.

[Powder]

Originally Posted by Cipher Classic

I wouldn't mind all black masks in the least. It could make sense for a new universe too.

I've been thinking that alot lately actually.

[Krutch]

Making your opponent think he's outnumbered is a clever tactic... And entirely un-ninja like. The opponent shouldn't even know he's in danger until he hits the floor. Ninjas aren't Batman. They don't use scare tactics. They sneak around the defense and hit their mark before anyone knows they're there.

And for arguments sake let's use the scare tactic scenerio with colored headbands. Assuming it's at night, which I assume it would be, if I'm only just seeing glimpses of the turtles I wouldn't make out the color of their bandana anyways. It'd be the exact safe effect as all red. And I think I'd already think I'm outnumbered by the time I catch a glimpse of the third or forth turtle. I'd have no clue how big their numbers are.

You're also forgetting the sole fact that they are MUTANTS WITH WEAPONS. That alone is enough to intimidate. I doubt their target is gonna care what colors they're wearing.

[Koi]

Originally Posted by Krutch

Making your opponent think he's outnumbered is a clever tactic... And entirely un-ninja like. The opponent shouldn't even know he's in danger until he hits the floor. Ninjas aren't Batman. They don't use scare tactics. They sneak around the defense and hit their mark before anyone knows they're there.

I can understand where you are going, ninjas are ninjas and do not do super BA long fights, but instead have instant kills... But I myself would rather watch a long dramatic fight scene then a quick easy kill.

You're also forgetting the sole fact that they are MUTANTS WITH WEAPONS. That alone is enough to intimidate. I doubt their target is gonna care what colors they're wearing.

oh really?

Just kidding.

[Revan]

Originally Posted by sdp

I remember why I bailed out on this thread.

I can understand you are a fan of the comics and want the movie to be like it, but you seem to be pushing that your version is better.

Welcome to the internet

Originally Posted by sdp

All red would not give any message that this is an mature version.

But it would be an obvious indicator that this isn't the silly OT version of the turtles we are all familiar with.

Originally Posted by sdp

The age range for the turtles 40s? what? I'd say early 30s are the ones who were already pretty old when they got into a kids franchise. If transformers did well with the nostalgia crowd and its a much older fanbase then the turtles will do fine with that audience since they are younger.

The nostalgic factor you refer to is based from a cartoon series that was action based. The OT turtles was geared more toward comedy with some action sprinkled in.
And the new Transformers movie had WAY WAY more action in it that all 4 turtles movies combined (which is probably the reason it was more successfull, not because of nostalgia)

Originally Posted by sdp

There is no way they can make this into a "this isn't the turtles you know from the cartoons"

I don't understand why that is impossible. They just need to find a way to send the message clearly.

[Krutch]

Originally Posted by Drawsher

I can understand where you are going, ninjas are ninjas and do not do super BA long fights, but instead have instant kills... But I myself would rather watch a long dramatic fight scene then a quick easy kill.

lol I completely agree. But he was defending what he felt is ninja-like, so I had to state my opinion

[Krang]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

There's nothing to say a particular ninja clan couldn't don bandannas. There may have even been.

That goes back to the question I asked before: What would be the purpose of bandannas? I very much doubt they would be part of a uniform unless there was a reason for them to be.

No, even though that's as good a reason as any for their inclusion, it's not because of that.

It's not because of the comics? Then why should there be bandannas at all rather than more traditional ninja uniforms?

Vs. the alternative? Different brightly colored bandannas?

Huh? I'm just saying that ninja clans with red bandannas are not realistic. I didn't even mention colored bandannas...

Just shooting from the hip here, but misdirection and confusion? You see a shadowy figure moving in the shadows and catch just a glimpse of red against the darkness... you turn, then you see another glimpse of red bandanna, then from the other side of the room.

Suddenly you think, "I'm completely surrounded, there must be like 10 of them, I'm completely surrounded and f***ed!"

Sounds pretty ninja-like to me.

Not to me. Like Krutch said, if you're a ninja, you aren't supposed to be seen at all until it's too late for your enemies. If they're spotted before they attack, it would be all over for them against skilled enemies, who aren't going to just stand there and be scared. Any martial artist can tell you that it's incredibly important not to allow your opponent to predict your attacks.

The same idealology in which Yakuza and Chinese Triads brand themselves with very particular tattoos.

The difference here is that tattoos don't give the enemy a tactical advantage.

Color, singular. Not plural.

My comment was in response to the concept that different ninja clans wear different colors.

17ish + 23 (2010 - 1987) = 40. Though maybe it is a big crazy to think 17 year olds would start watching the OS.

And by the time the new movie hits in 2012, someone who was 15 in 1987 would be celebrating their 40th birthday.

...Yes. That doesn't change either of the two things I said.

Late twenties to mid-to-late 30s. OT was hardly drawing in new audiences (in any significant number, anyway) by the time 1996 rolled around.

The OT was most popular in the early 90s, and as I recall, that popularity lasted at least through 1992 or 93. You're saying that there weren't enough young kids who began watching during that time (and would now be in their early-mid 20s) to be worth counting? Yet you're saying that there were more people in their mid-late teens watching during that time (who would now be in their late 30s)? Wow, so much for target demographics...

Originally Posted by Neutrino

But it would be an obvious indicator that this isn't the silly OT version of the turtles we are all familiar with.

[...]

I don't understand why that is impossible. They just need to find a way to send the message clearly.

But if this is supposed to be bringing in an entirely new audience, they wouldn't need to send such a message.

[Revan]

Originally Posted by Krang

But if this is supposed to be bringing in an entirely new audience, they wouldn't need to send such a message.

I understant that but I'm curious HOW they plan to bring said new audience.

If they have a better idea, it's all good IMO but wouldn't you agree that all red bandanas would be a clear attention grabber?

[Candy Kappa]

[QUOTE=Krang;763636]My comment was in response to the concept that different ninja clans wear different colors.
[QUOTE]

all know that the white ninja is a good guy, the black ninja is a bad guy and the gray ninja changes sides