Official Ep discussion #10 "Panic in the Sewers"

[The Stryker]

Originally Posted by Rooish

It just really doesn't seem especially playful in this show! At times, anyway. Yeah, as a kid I probably wouldn't have interpreted it as I should be violent all the time--I'd just be kind of disturbed about it and what the writers are thinking, like I am now.

What is going on exactly? Did I miss a scene where Raph put a sai up to Mikey's neck and forced him to smoke crack?

Examples dawg.

[Rooish]

Okay. In the most recent episode: Mikey falls asleep during training; Raph body-slams him. Mikey says "Maybe we're in over our heads;" Raph slams his head with his fist. Raph says "Donnie, you're crowding me," Don backs off as though he's worried about having his ass handed to him.

Raph tells Splinter that they'll be ready next time; Splinter twists Raph's arm behind him, holds him like that, and then kicks him into the others.

A whack is one thing, but these are not playful whacks.

Maybe it's not about what this show would do to impressionable kids' minds, but it's just leaving a bad taste in my mouth when I want to enjoy the family dynamic.

[Cure]

Originally Posted by Rooish

Okay. In the most recent episode: Mikey falls asleep during training; Raph body-slams him. Mikey says "Maybe we're in over our heads;" Raph slams his head with his fist. Raph says "Donnie, you're crowding me," Don backs off as though he's worried about having his ass handed to him.

Raph tells Splinter that they'll be ready next time; Splinter twists Raph's arm behind him, holds him like that, and then kicks him into the others.

Oh God! Such VIOLENCE!

[Rooish]

Originally Posted by Cure

Oh God! Such VIOLENCE!

Yes. That crap could really do some damage. And as my whole point was, it's totally disproportionate to the behaviour that triggered it.

[The Stryker]

Originally Posted by Rooish

Okay. In the most recent episode: Mikey falls asleep during training; Raph body-slams him. Mikey says "Maybe we're in over our heads;" Raph slams his head with his fist. Raph says "Donnie, you're crowding me," Don backs off as though he's worried about having his ass handed to him.

Raph tells Splinter that they'll be ready next time; Splinter twists Raph's arm behind him, holds him like that, and then kicks him into the others.

A whack is one thing, but these are not playful whacks.

Maybe it's not about what this show would do to impressionable kids' minds, but it's just leaving a bad taste in my mouth when I want to enjoy the family dynamic.

To me that all sounds like you're overly sensitive. Splinter was proving a point that Shredder would murder them easily and the Turtle stuff still comes off to me like brotherly rough housing. Were you upset over the Turtles making fun of Don over getting beat up by a pigeon?

Again. I think you would FREAK watching some Three Stooges.

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by Rooish

Okay. In the most recent episode: Mikey falls asleep during training; Raph body-slams him. Mikey says "Maybe we're in over our heads;" Raph slams his head with his fist. Raph says "Donnie, you're crowding me," Don backs off as though he's worried about having his ass handed to him.

Raph tells Splinter that they'll be ready next time; Splinter twists Raph's arm behind him, holds him like that, and then kicks him into the others.

A whack is one thing, but these are not playful whacks.

Maybe it's not about what this show would do to impressionable kids' minds, but it's just leaving a bad taste in my mouth when I want to enjoy the family dynamic.

How else is a family that is raised in the deadly art of ninjitsu gonna act? This is far from a normal family. That's like complaining about Vegeta training with kid Trunks in the gravity chamber.

[Machias Banshee]

I've got three older brothers, and we used to wrestle and smack each other around all the time, like Raph and Mike. That's what Kids DO. But we all love each other, we aren't traumatized...

Edit: Ya beat me to it, Yagami...

You also have to look at the situation - they are not just learning ninjutsu for the hell of it, like the OT - they are working towards survival 24/7. Splinter's not gonna be a helicopter parent that baby-proofs everything for his sons. They'd Never Make It.

I've had dreams of family members getting hurt or killed, that have seriously affected me for a day or two at a time - and I KNOW it's just a dream. But I'm not in the middle of trying to survive constant threats on my life. So I can be understanding Splinter's fears. Did he react the best way? Maybe not... Is he a perfect parent? Those don't exist...

[Rooish]

Originally Posted by The Stryker

To me that all sounds like you're overly sensitive. Splinter was proving a point that Shredder would murder them easily and the Turtle stuff still comes off to me like brotherly rough housing. Were you upset over the Turtles making fun of Don over getting beat up by a pigeon?

No... they asked if he was okay first, right? It's really just when they use actions that look like they actually could really hurt, or use intimidation among family members, that seems to be getting to me.

I know that the sibling banter and smacking don't traumatize, but in this show it really does seem to be a bit more abusive or frequent to me than in older incarnations. I do get upset during similar scenes in other versions. Like in the OT, near the start of season 2, Splinter really freaks out and rages and beats them up. It does seem to border on abuse in cases like that, although I know it's muddled by Splinter being the sensei and worried about his sons' lives. I still think it's legitimate to be upset by it, although I am getting a little tired of debating it.

And maybe I would freak watching the Three Stooges, Stryker... but I guess my issue here is I've loved the TMNT a long time, and it's just been jarring for me to see this sort of stuff when I feel the family has not been this extreme before.

[Avatar Yuffie]

Originally Posted by Rooish

Okay. In the most recent episode: Mikey falls asleep during training; Raph body-slams him. Mikey says "Maybe we're in over our heads;" Raph slams his head with his fist. Raph says "Donnie, you're crowding me," Don backs off as though he's worried about having his ass handed to him.

Raph tells Splinter that they'll be ready next time; Splinter twists Raph's arm behind him, holds him like that, and then kicks him into the others.

A whack is one thing, but these are not playful whacks.

Maybe it's not about what this show would do to impressionable kids' minds, but it's just leaving a bad taste in my mouth when I want to enjoy the family dynamic.

*raise eyebrows*

I just recently watched 2K3, and I see Raph and Don "attacking" Mikey for being a comic relief (in the first episode!). They are not playful wacks cause Don hit Mikey's head with his bo.

It's just... what?

[Machias Banshee]

Any kind of 'violence' in this show (that's never shown anyone getting killed, mind you), is VERY low key compared to... say the original Looney Tunes. The amount of guns, bombs, anvils... Wily Coyote had an Arsenal of weapons in his possession all the time..

[Rooish]

I'm not comparing it to any other show in my mind--that seems like a red herring to me. I'm comparing it to what seems to me to be abusive in a family.

Can't remember the episode, Yuffie. Maybe it would have bothered me, too.

[Bossa Nova]

Raphael only body slams into Mikey when he's not paying attention, which is often. Rough? Maybe, but obviously necessary at how easily Mikey's mind tend to wanders. And Don backing up in fear? Really? Raph just told him to move back, so he did. Why start an argument with him over it when they had more important things to focus on? He's not an overly confrontational turtle, so why would it bother him to step back? If Don was so afraid of Raph I doubt he would've started bantering with him later in the episode when Leo was trying to listen in on April's call.

[Coola Yagami]

One thing I did notice in the last two episodes.... Leo did tackle down and start to whomp on Raph at the end of the 'Never say Xever' episode, and in the last one, Don did chase Mikey around the lair after the water balloon prank. So it's not ALL Raph > everyone all the time. But yeah, Raph does love to push, shove and bully his brothers around in this version as oppossed to the 2K3 where he would mostly argue with Leo and pick on Mikey.

[Rooish]

Originally Posted by Bossa Nova

Raphael only body slams into Mikey when he's not paying attention, which is often. Rough? Maybe, but obviously necessary at how easily Mikey's mind tend to wanders. And Don backing up in fear? Really? Raph just told him to move back, so he did. Why start an argument with him over it when they had more important things to focus on? He's not an overly confrontational turtle, so why would it bother him to step back? If Don was so afraid of Raph I doubt he would've started bantering with him later in the episode when Leo was trying to listen in on April's call.

Difference in interpretation, I guess. Maybe I'm sensitive to what appears to be bullying or abuse. And here is where I do think it's valid to bring in the kids; I think some kids would be more sensitive to that too. I hope y'all don't treat your families like that in real life? Anyway, are you guys tired of this debate? I kind of am ready for bed.

Edit: I guess it's good that it's not all Raph, Yagami? This would indicate to me that the others aren't scared of fighting back...

[Bossa Nova]

Originally Posted by Rooish

I hope y'all don't treat your families like that in real life?

I already mentioned that I do It's not uncommon for me to find bruises from who knows what after fighting with my sisters. They just make me laugh. In the end I know it's all playing anyway and we all love each other. I'm sure the turtles are the same. It's really no biggie if you have that kind of relationship with your family.

[Rooish]

Originally Posted by Bossa Nova

I already mentioned that I do It's not uncommon for me to find bruises from who knows what after fighting with my sisters. They just make me laugh. In the end I know it's all playing anyway and we all love each other. I'm sure the turtles are the same. It's really no biggie if you have that kind of relationship with your family.

Body slams and all?

[Bossa Nova]

Originally Posted by Rooish

Body slams and all?

Um, yes? Is that really so weird?

Anyway, it really is just all a difference in perspective. The turtles definitely act younger in this incarnation than what I'm accustomed to, and that has taken me more getting used to than their supposed bullying of one another. If anything, it's Raphael's verbal jabs that seem more cruel than his actual physical actions, and even then it's pretty obvious he doesn't mean half of what he says.

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by Rooish

Difference in interpretation, I guess. Maybe I'm sensitive to what appears to be bullying or abuse. And here is where I do think it's valid to bring in the kids; I think some kids would be more sensitive to that too. I hope y'all don't treat your families like that in real life? Anyway, are you guys tired of this debate? I kind of am ready for bed.

Edit: I guess it's good that it's not all Raph, Yagami? This would indicate to me that the others aren't scared of fighting back...

At least Leo isn't afraid of fighting back. Mikey can't be too afraid since he keeps provoking Raph all the time. Although in real life, sometimes it's hard NOT to pick on the people with foul tempers cause it's just so easy. LOL

[The Stryker]

I body slam my brother on the daily. Bastard deserves it.

[Coola Yagami]

Another thing to remember is again, trained in ninjitsu... they can take more damage than the average guy, so they can easily shrug off a body slam or two.