TMNT #16 Discussion

[ToTheNines]

Sweet story. Even though I totally side with Don and Raph, I feel for Mikey. Leo though... Andrew summed that up pretty well.

While reading, I thought the ending was going to be cliche, but the setup of Hob and Slash forming a team (with room for expansion apparently!) was freakin' awesome. I'm already wanting the Krang War arc to be over with just to see that pay off lol.

This was Khun's best issue, but I'm VERY excited to see Bates get to work. Still wish Duncan could have stayed long term... him and Ronda really worked well together.

[MikeandRaph87]

Originally Posted by Lampy

Finally is it that time already? This issue seemed to come by faster than usual. But anyways... khuns layouts are pretty awesome. And his krang looks pretty sick and twisted. I like it. Doesnt look exactly like his OT counterpart and thats the good part. Anyone else getting a starwars deathstar feel everytime u see the unfinished technodrome? Cuz I do.

Congrats on the letter printed,Lampy! I just sent in a letter about this issue. Had to comment on this one. I was a little nervous since I went around here promoting for Slash to appear since he is a great character study. Glad to see he is a mutant opposed to alien who looks like a mutant turtle and explaination of being conditioned to hunt his fellow turtles opposed to just being plain stupid. I was afraid the turtles would learn to be willing to kill and glad to see the way it turned out in the end with

Spoiler:

Leo hurting Slash and Slash escaping only to be found by Old Hob who has a vial of Splinter's blood. Hope that Slash can see the accident as it was and become an anti-hero in the future. The whole issue was fast paced and most all of it was about Slash's confrontation with the TMNT so how they get from there to Krang is anyone's guess.I though Slash would be the link that sped up the confrontation.

[ToTheNines]

Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87

Spoiler:

Leo hurting Slash and Slash escaping only to be found by Old Hob who has a vial of Splinter's blood. Hope that Slash can see the accident as it was and become an anti-hero in the future. The whole issue was fast paced and most all of it was about Slash's confrontation with the TMNT so how they get from there to Krang is anyone's guess.I though Slash would be the link that sped up the confrontation.

Spoiler:

He may well be. Perhaps Slash's attack makes the guys feel threatened enough to go bust some heads at Stockgen.

[MikeandRaph87]

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

Spoiler:

He may well be. Perhaps Slash's attack makes the guys feel threatened enough to go bust some heads at Stockgen.

Spoiler:

You are probably right about that. I just expected them to have announced by issue's end that they were going to StockGen for answers.

Needless to say,action-packed,intense, a bit of characterization, well-done!

[Matches Malone]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

I think the scale is tipping a little bit too far towards foreshadowing stuff, though. Not crazily, but sometimes it feels like things are slowed/stopped to spend a few pages foreshadowing later stories... when maybe those pages could be better served on the present storyline.

Though there are times when this is particularly true, it definitely works in its favor in the trade form. Plus, I think Tom's getting better at making each issue more satisfying by itself as opposed to back in issue #3 when Raph and Casey literally just walked around NYC the whole issue and it ends with them running into Old Hob.

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

This issue didn't do much for me. Kuhn continues to draw a fearsome Slash but everything else is still pretty dodgy. I think we're supposed to take Leonardo's supposed accidental killing of Slash as some kind of hard ninja life lesson when it was anything but (Slash basically accidentally killed himself on Leo's sword)... and then kind of how the last issue made sure readers knew that Slash killed absolutely no one at any point, the story tacks on an epilogue (more foreshadowing, of course) to reassure readers that Leonardo absolutely didn't kill anybody and is still a good, upstanding guy that wouldn't do such things.

I can see what you're saying here, but I think it's a little more thought out than that. Yeah, they aren't the hardened Mirage ninjas, but I don't think they are avoiding reality either. True, Leo didn't intend to kill Slash, but in his mind and in the minds of his family, he did, whether it was accidental or not. Meanwhile, Tom makes it a point to show that Splinter accepts that the perceived killing was just. Be able to accept such things is part of the "ninja spirit." No one claims it was the wrong outcome, just a sad one. I think this is more in line with what you had hypothesized previously: that this is a stepping stone to their confrontation in which they will eventually destroy the Shredder. Since they are making such a big deal about killing, I'm pretty sure the writer(s) will leave that "ultimate act" for the Shredder first. Will he be the only one they are willing to kill? Perhaps. Or perhaps not. But at least they don't seem to have (complete) delusions that they won't ever have to do it. Well, maybe Mikey does. But I like that about him. He's in denial. The scene with Woody at the end had a nice emotional impact and you really do feel sorry for him. I don't think that the message in this series is that killing is always wrong. Just that it is an act to be taken seriously. Which I can't say I disagree with. The turtles are stuck between wanting to be a happy family of teenagers and these life-threatening situations that keep happening. I think that's understandable.

As for leaving Slash alive, I would think that has more to do with the fact that we all, including myself, want to see more of him! It's kind of a cop-out to get the "killing lesson" and keep him around, but I thought it has handled very nicely. They can't all be "shocking" reveals of "wait, he's not dead?!" Glad to see Old Hob finally begin to step out on his own, though. Just as sometimes you have to kill, there are times when you don't. I'm sure next we see Slash, it will be very different circumstances. Mainly so we don't have to keep wondering why he isn't being killed off!

[DrSpengler]

Here's my review of TMNT #16 at TMNT Entity.

Well, it was a satisfying conclusion, though I can understand how some might feel conflicted about it.

The ominous cloud of the TMNT's "first kill" and how they would react to it has been hanging over the book for a while, now. So to have their first kill not actually be a kill at all could certainly be perceived as a copout.

On the OTHER HAND, it retains Slash as a recurring foe in the book and I can't say that doesn't make me happy. So it's sort of an exchange. We get some character development that feels like a pulled punch, but we also get to keep Slash around. Not the ideal situation, but I freakin' love Slash, so I'm ultimately okay with it.

And the cliffhanger has me excited for the possibility of Hob leading a gang of "Mutanimals". Oh god, the possibilities.

If you read my review, you'll see that my only real grievance with the issue was Don being the first one to suggest killing Slash and is shown having no reaction to his death during the epilogue.

I can see how it would seem right for Don to come to the conclusion to kill Slash, as he bases that determination on cold hard logic, but Don's always been shown to temper his scientific qualities with empathy. Take TMNT (Vol. 1) #12 for example, where he's visibly broken up over the fact that he killed a psychotic terrorist. The guy doesn't take killing callously or lightly. I could accept his being the first to suggest the measure in battle, but I think he should have been shown regretting the outcome after the fact.

I know that might have "undercut" Mikey's reaction, but you can have two Turtles emotionally troubled by death and not feel redundant.

That aside, I was satisfied with this installment, but I'm even more thrilled by all the things to come (the freakin' Krang War, o man o man o man o man).

[frank_one]

Spoiler:

.. and Old Hob becomes the leader of the Mighty Evil Mutanimals!

[DrSpengler]

On the subject of Leo,

It seemed to me that he was more upset with his own failure than anything else. He's the leader, he has to be "perfect" and he insists on shouldering the weight of the world.

Slash was "killed" because Leo let his guard down and failed to control the situation. Had he decisively and consciously landed the blow that felled Slash, it would be different. But Slash got stabbed because Leo let his guard down and allowed the accident to happen.

That's a major failure in his eyes and I can see how, with his desire to be "perfect" and protect his younger brothers, such a mistake would affect him deeply. Especially if it led to something as final as death (albeit no one actually died).

[frank_one]

They should call this new comic "Teenage Mutant Pacifist Turtles". Not so bad, though.

[okguy456]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

. I think we're supposed to take Leonardo's supposed accidental killing of Slash as some kind of hard ninja life lesson when it was anything but (Slash basically accidentally killed himself on Leo's sword)...

anything but? Do you forget that they are teenagers? and having to kill something that is "like them" in a way. Whether it was an accident or not, that is definitely going to affect you.

[Venom]

Originally Posted by DrSpengler

the cliffhanger has me excited for the possibility of Hob leading a gang of "Mutanimals". Oh god, the possibilities.

My thoughts exactly when I read this last night!

Old Hob was like Nick Fury popping up at the end of Iron Man!

If you read my review, you'll see that my only real grievance with the issue was Don being the first one to suggest killing Slash and is shown having no reaction to his death during the epilogue.

I can see how it would seem right for Don to come to the conclusion to kill Slash, as he bases that determination on cold hard logic, but Don's always been shown to temper his scientific qualities with empathy. Take TMNT (Vol. 1) #12 for example, where he's visibly broken up over the fact that he killed a psychotic terrorist. The guy doesn't take killing callously or lightly. I could accept his being the first to suggest the measure in battle, but I think he should have been shown regretting the outcome after the fact.

On the contrary, I felt like Don's nonchalance was a rather nice Mirage trait used in this issue. His reaction in #12, to me at least, was more of a quiet moment out of a respect for life in general, and a time of reflection at a basic level of commonality he felt for Skonk (survival). Don didn't dilly-dally around and disarm the bomb, he took out the plutonium so the blast would only kill the man who was threatening his family - and others.

IDW's Don was on the same line of thought in that regard - Slash was out to kill his brothers and him, and deduced that if they did not that Slash would inevitably find them and try again, thus the only solution was to end the problem before it came back to bite them in the ass later.

I feel an "I told you so" moment later on down the road.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by okguy456

anything but? Do you forget that they are teenagers?

Who went to junior high and high school and took Mary Sue to the prom?

It's foolish to compare them to human teenagers. They're not.

[Dirty Blond]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Who went to junior high and high school and took Mary Sue to the prom?

It's foolish to compare them to human teenagers. They're not.

Could it be said that they were human, and that has some influence on their current thinking and behavior?

[Jester]

I just had a weird thought...seems Hob plans on using Splinter blood to make mutants...or at least that's the common conception. What if one of the first mutants is Woody into Mondo Gecko?

The largest snag with this theory is the fact that until now (although with Bebop and Rocksteady in the Raph micro it's still a distinct possibility) all mutants have been Animal to Bigger Sentient Animal.

[Matches Malone]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Who went to junior high and high school and took Mary Sue to the prom?

It's foolish to compare them to human teenagers. They're not.

They've obviously integrated themselves into human, specifically American culture. Human or not, they have teenaged minds, meaning the same degree of excitement, energy, and naivete. They haven't gone to school, but they love pizza and play Twister (apparently).

Even if you argue they can't be compared to human teenagers, then it follows that there is no precedent for teenaged mutant ninja turtles, and thus no rules as to what kind of emotional maturity they are expected to maintain.

[Powder]

Originally Posted by Jester

What if one of the first mutants is Woody into Mondo Gecko?

Mondo Gecko? Don't you mean...

Spoiler:

?

[Jester]

Originally Posted by Powder

Mondo Gecko? Don't you mean...

Spoiler:

?

Gah, I hope not.

[thelouisguy]

Originally Posted by Matches Malone

that the character we haven't seen in a while, the old fan favorite kitten, is Old Hob. Unless you really threw us for a loop and those two statements aren't talking about the same character, and he's talking about Klunk!!!

I thought the character in question was from another Andy Kuhn issue from the past, Kara.

Spoiler:

Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87

The whole issue was fast paced and most all of it was about Slash's confrontation with the TMNT so how they get from there to Krang is anyone's guess.I though Slash would be the link that sped up the confrontation.

I believe page 6 is the link to the Krang War.

Spoiler:

Originally Posted by Jester

I just had a weird thought...seems Hob plans on using Splinter blood to make mutants...or at least that's the common conception. What if one of the first mutants is Woody into Mondo Gecko?

The largest snag with this theory is the fact that until now (although with Bebop and Rocksteady in the Raph micro it's still a distinct possibility) all mutants have been Animal to Bigger Sentient Animal.

As much as I would love to see Bebop and Rocksteady mutated, I hope Tom has an explaination that makes sense as to how Humans and Animals can be mutated together. I would love to see some early test creatures that fail and then they try it on Bebop and Rocksteady when they think they have it "perfected".

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by thelouisguy

As much as I would love to see Bebop and Rocksteady mutated, I hope Tom has an explaination that makes sense as to how Humans and Animals can be mutated together. I would love to see some early test creatures that fail and then they try it on Bebop and Rocksteady when they think they have it "perfected".

I'm still betting that Foot Clan = mutates people into mutant animals, StockGen/Krang = mutates animals into mutant people.

[thelouisguy]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

I'm still betting that Foot Clan = mutates people into mutant animals, StockGen/Krang = mutates animals into mutant people.

Thats a pretty good bet, I would like to see their research / work that builds to that fact. StockGen has been working for a year or two on it and have not even perfected what they were trying to achieve. The Turtles and Splinter are basically accidents since they they were covered with the ooze as well as injected with it. Hob was also covered with it and not tested on. So, if they cover Bebop and Rocksteady in ooze, would they become large, freaky looking humans? I would not expect the rhino and warthog to splice into their DNA by accident. With the way we have had mutation work so far, I would expect humans to mutant into a Super Shredder type mutant.