TMNT #16 Discussion

[thelouisguy]

I agree that the placement of the Hob/Slash scene was kind of odd. Love the cliffhanger, but if it is put on the back burner until issue 21, then it will feel odd. I like that Hob was unseen for 4 issues; would have been nice to have the same thing happen with Slash. Could have been done with a scene earlier in the book of Hob with the vial of blood/mutagen, hinting at his new "Gang" but not showing an association with Slash. That would make a Slash return more of a surprise.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by thelouisguy

I agree that the placement of the Hob/Slash scene was kind of odd. Love the cliffhanger, but if it is put on the back burner until issue 21, then it will feel odd. I like that Hob was unseen for 4 issues; would have been nice to have the same thing happen with Slash. Could have been done with a scene earlier in the book of Hob with the vial of blood/mutagen, hinting at his new "Gang" but not showing an association with Slash. That would make a Slash return more of a surprise.

Hob's surprise return was fine, but un-killing Slash only a couple pages after killing him (and what appears as though will lead to some kind of "I don't want to be a killer!" ninja melodrama with Leo) felt an awful lot like the 4Kids show... you know... "Look! WAIT! Leonardo didn't kill Shredder, he's picking up his own robot head, you see?! Right as rain!"

If Slash had to come back then just reveal him as part of Old Hob's gang later on and then include a mini flashback to Old Hob pulling him out of the water. Or just mention it in dialogue in passing. Or you know, anything but stripmining out any possible weight from Leonardo's "actions" this issue as has happened.

[Matches Malone]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Hob's surprise return was fine, but un-killing Slash only a couple pages after killing him (and what appears as though will lead to some kind of "I don't want to be a killer!" ninja melodrama with Leo) felt an awful lot like the 4Kids show... you know... "Look! WAIT! Leonardo didn't kill Shredder, he's picking up his own robot head, you see?! Right as rain!"

True, but it's arguably at least a step further. I don't think 4Kids ever showed anyone being explicitly stabbed with a sword, or anything, did they?

[DrSpengler]

I was more offput by the fact that Hob somehow knew precisely where Slash was going to wash ashore and was there waiting for him.

"Comic book logic", I know, but still.

[Toby Barrett]

He may not have known, he might have just been randomly walking the coast. His plan would have pretty much been the same with or without Slash, just now he has some added muscle on his side.

[Jester]

Originally Posted by Matches Malone

True, but it's arguably at least a step further. I don't think 4Kids ever showed anyone being explicitly stabbed with a sword, or anything, did they?

Karai ran Leo through in Exodus.

We may know Slash survived, but Leo doesn't. As long as that remains unknown to him for a while, it only undoes Slash's death in the eyes of the fans...not the characters.

[ToTheNines]

Maybe he nabbed another one of those mutant turtle trackers?

[Ninjinister]

The TMNT vs. Slash fight got on the "Best fights of the week" for ComicVine.

Oddly enough, I have all three books spotlighted this week.

[mrmaczaps]

sorry if someone already asked about the art...

how is everyone liking this? i'm not a big fan of it so far... its not that its bad, just less... thick/well defined... i guess i'm just used to reading the old Mirage books as I was superspeeding through those and getting up-to-date in the last year/15 months...

Kind of new to the boards as far as talking about the actual books...

[Turns]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Hob's surprise return was fine, but un-killing Slash only a couple pages after killing him (and what appears as though will lead to some kind of "I don't want to be a killer!" ninja melodrama with Leo) felt an awful lot like the 4Kids show... you know... "Look! WAIT! Leonardo didn't kill Shredder, he's picking up his own robot head, you see?! Right as rain!"

If Slash had to come back then just reveal him as part of Old Hob's gang later on and then include a mini flashback to Old Hob pulling him out of the water. Or just mention it in dialogue in passing. Or you know, anything but stripmining out any possible weight from Leonardo's "actions" this issue as has happened.

I agree, the resurrection of Slash was WAY too early. I think that the closing scene would have been much better if it was shown a few issues down the road instead.

[The Big Bad]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Hob's surprise return was fine, but un-killing Slash only a couple pages after killing him (and what appears as though will lead to some kind of "I don't want to be a killer!" ninja melodrama with Leo) felt an awful lot like the 4Kids show... you know... "Look! WAIT! Leonardo didn't kill Shredder, he's picking up his own robot head, you see?! Right as rain!"

That is a...profoundingly ungenerous reading of the scene, I feel, and I'm not sure a reading of the text can support. I'm curious: makes you think that that was the intention behind that scene, rather than, to name an alternative, a desire to shock the audience and to make them wonder how the heck a man can survive without a head? And do you think the alternative--just showing the Shredder alive and well later on--would have been better?

ETA: (Yes, there was always the option of leaving the Shredder irrevocably dead, which I suspect you'd prefer, but let's leave that aside for the sake of discussion.)

[DrSpengler]

Originally Posted by mrmaczaps

sorry if someone already asked about the art...

how is everyone liking this? i'm not a big fan of it so far... its not that its bad, just less... thick/well defined... i guess i'm just used to reading the old Mirage books as I was superspeeding through those and getting up-to-date in the last year/15 months...

Kind of new to the boards as far as talking about the actual books...

Well, #16 was Andy Kuhn's last issue, so if you were disappointed in his efforts then there's a chance you'll like the next penciller, Ben Bates, a little better.

Personally, I thought Duncan (issues #1-12) was a better all-around artist and was sad to see him go. His style wasn't lavish, but he made deadlines every time and I was very satisfied with his economical style.

Like a lot of people, I was a bit fire and ice on Kuhn (#13-16). He drew most everything great BUT the Turtles. And even then, it was just the way he rendered their faces that I found unappealing. I loved just about everything else and he really grew as an artist between the Michelangelo microseries and #13 (getting a better handle on things like scale).

I didn't loathe the guy like a lot of others did, but I would like to see who else is out there and what they can do. I've enjoyed Bates's work on Sonic the Hedgehog and Mega Man, so I'm really curious to see how he handles a more "serious" style.

[mrmaczaps]

Originally Posted by DrSpengler

Well, #16 was Andy Kuhn's last issue, so if you were disappointed in his efforts then there's a chance you'll like the next penciller, Ben Bates, a little better.

Personally, I thought Duncan (issues #1-12) was a better all-around artist and was sad to see him go. His style wasn't lavish, but he made deadlines every time and I was very satisfied with his economical style.

Like a lot of people, I was a bit fire and ice on Kuhn (#13-16). He drew most everything great BUT the Turtles. And even then, it was just the way he rendered their faces that I found unappealing. I loved just about everything else and he really grew as an artist between the Michelangelo microseries and #13 (getting a better handle on things like scale).

I didn't loathe the guy like a lot of others did, but I would like to see who else is out there and what they can do. I've enjoyed Bates's work on Sonic the Hedgehog and Mega Man, so I'm really curious to see how he handles a more "serious" style.

Yes, exactly. The faces were... I have no nice/proper words. I didn't care for them at all.
Should be interesting to see the new artist thats coming on with the next issue.

[mrmaczaps]

Originally Posted by TomWaltz

It's gonna be "last food touched" actually. Wait till you guys meet the Brussel Sprout Samurai! He's gonna team up with the Granola Ghoul, the Milky Maniac, and the Watermelon Warrior for the ultimate smack down:

Four Heroes in a Half-Shell versus the Four Food Groups!

Wouldn't that be the ultimate Snack down?

yes, i know that was lame....

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by The Big Bad

And do you think the alternative--just showing the Shredder alive and well later on--would have been better?

Of course. And it'd give a few episodes for audiences to stew on, "zomg, did you guys see what Leo did to Shredder in that one episode?"

But it makes sense because the 4Kids cartoon is for little kids. If Shredder apparently loses his head, you've got to show that he's OK quickly thereafter. It makes sense.

IDW TMNT... I thought that wasn't for little kids. I mean, in the comics, did we need to see Oroku Saki's remains being scooped up and fed to the worms in an epilogue to Vol. 1, #1? That'd be stupid. It was enough that he mentioned it in passing in #21, leaving the horror of it to description and the imagination. A mini flashback would have been just as effective also but was not necessary.

(Yes, there was always the option of leaving the Shredder irrevocably dead, which I suspect you'd prefer, but let's leave that aside for the sake of discussion.)

I don't really "prefer" anything for the 4Kids show. It's not aimed at people above the age of 8 so I know it's not and never was for me. It's fine.

[Xav]

I always felt the 4Kids series was aimed at a little bit older audience.

[Jester]

Originally Posted by mrmaczaps

Wouldn't that be the ultimate Snack down?

yes, i know that was lame....

Um...yes, yes it was...

Originally Posted by Jester

Don't you mean..."snack down"?

Oh, I slay me.

[Galactus]

Short as it was I enjoyed this mini-Slash arc. It seemed to "click" more than any of the Old Hob or Foot stuff from earlier in the series, at least it did for me. Speaking of which; the ending with Old Hob standing over Slash in a the first time the character actualy came off as menacing to me. It feels like he's going to be a major player now as opposed to being a lackey.

I also actualy felt for Mike now that Woody doesn't want to be involved with him anymore. The scene with Mike getting the pizza and Splinter's speach about Mikey's optimism

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Of course. And it'd give a few episodes for audiences to stew on, "zomg, did you guys see what Leo did to Shredder in that one episode?"

But it makes sense because the 4Kids cartoon is for little kids. If Shredder apparently loses his head, you've got to show that he's OK quickly thereafter. It makes sense.

IDW TMNT... I thought that wasn't for little kids. I mean, in the comics, did we need to see Oroku Saki's remains being scooped up and fed to the worms in an epilogue to Vol. 1, #1? That'd be stupid. It was enough that he mentioned it in passing in #21, leaving the horror of it to description and the imagination. A mini flashback would have been just as effective also but was not necessary.

The 4Kids "decapitation" was still imo pretty hardcore for a cartoon for eight year olds. It showed that Leonardo was trying to kill his enemy and as far as he (and we as viewers in that moment) knew he had.

This is why I don't get what the issue is with killing in the IDW series. The 4Kids series never brought up the subject but any event episode showed they were willing to kill and did so, even if it was shown in a way that didn't make it 100% clear thus they could escape the censors.

If there's a similar problem with the IDW book then I don't see why we can't play it in a similar way as the show did. I can certainly understand that Leo didn't want to kill one of their own who didn't know better and I'm still kind of hoping we get a conclusive reason why Splinter doesn't want them to kill. I think a good idea would be that he realises that any random goon that his sons kill could end up having a relative swearing on them and creating a similar endless cycle.

On the subject of Slash being shown to survive. While it might have been a good end to the issue to just focus on Leo's guilt I'd argue most readers are aware of the major TMNT characters and know full well Slash would show up again so no need to try and pull the wool over the eyes by making out he's really dead. Not to mention it provided a truly enigmatic ending.

[TomWaltz]

Originally Posted by DrSpengler

I was more offput by the fact that Hob somehow knew precisely where Slash was going to wash ashore and was there waiting for him.

"Comic book logic", I know, but still.

It wasn't "comic book logic", my friend. In time, we will know how Hob knew...

Hob's got something going on... scheming... in the shadows...

[thelouisguy]

Originally Posted by TomWaltz

It wasn't "comic book logic", my friend. In time, we will know how Hob knew...

Hob's got something going on... scheming... in the shadows...

You're the best, Tom!