Leo & Donnie-Should they butt heads?

[BabyTurtles]

am I the only one getting annoyed that Donnie is getting all the attention in the show??

no? just me?.....okay.

[victory_angel]

Originally Posted by Bauer536

You make it sound like you want Donnie to be leader more than Leo. Maybe if Don proves himself, Leo will appoint him as second-in-command so Don can learn to be an effective leader. Also, I'd like to see Raph also butt heads with Don over leadership. Then it will show it's not the person that bothers him, but it's that he doesn't have the position.

Well no. We have seen glimpses of what Donnie could be like as a leader in some episode, and he could be just as good if not better then Leo in some cases. But Donnie's position to the team is is not just the brains, it has been implied to be second in command in other incarnations. We've seen hints of this role when Donnie and Leo are discussing attack plans in the Finally and also when Leo was asking Donnie for a Plan B. And hopefully that role is something that will start to be explored more in this upcoming season.

When Raph took the Leadership role in NGiT it was more of an ego trip to prove he could be a better leader then Leo. However he proved that he wasn't ready for the position and all it's responsibility. It felt like he believed that being a leader meant that you got your way all the time, and learned the hard way that you were responsible for your team. And if you make a mistake someone could get hurt or killed as a result.

Donnie on the other hand seems to understand there is a responsibility to those that follow you. Which is why the moments he is shown questioning Leo's orders it was because he is verifying it's accuracy and what areas could jeopardize the safety of the team.


The only reason Donnie would want to actually step into a leadership role himself is if Leo isn't able to lead, or if he had an absolute refutable reason to call Leo into question as a leader.

[pingclang]

Originally Posted by BabyTurtles

am I the only one getting annoyed that Donnie is getting all the attention in the show??

no? just me?.....okay.

Actually, I agree. He's probably the most fleshed out character. We've seen and learned more about him than the others. I really want to see some this much attention given to the others, maybe an episode each season to focus on the individual turtle? Show us more of why Raph gets mad, show us Leo failing and having to overcome and poor Mikey learning something. You're not alone.

As for the topic, yeah, I want a lot of headbutting. Someone with that amount of intelligence isnt going to just blindly follow someone. If they think it's stupid, they'll let you know what's wrong with it. Trust me, I live in a college town and have a lot of friends who consider themselves geniuses and do that sort of thing all the time. They should butt heads, I wanna see the brothers, not just Leo and Don, fighting more. Brothers don't get along as well as the Turtles do, they argue, fight and make up. I want more of that. Sorry for the long responses.

[BabyTurtles]

Originally Posted by pingclang

Actually, I agree. He's probably the most fleshed out character. We've seen and learned more about him than the others. I really want to see some this much attention given to the others, maybe an episode each season to focus on the individual turtle? Show us more of why Raph gets mad, show us Leo failing and having to overcome and poor Mikey learning something. You're not alone.

XD just wanted to make sure....he got the most episodes last season....and he's getting this Casey subplot...which should be given to Raph

IDK.......it's mildly bothering me.

(poor Mikey still needs his lesson)

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Yeah, I'm on the fence about the head-butting. It worked in IDW because they have different beliefs regarding the "logic" or evidence of their past lives, and that's a point of contention between them. Here, it would have to be something equally important and divisive, like April/Karai, or if Leo makes a decision Don seriously disagrees with for good reason. Maybe Timothy would come into play.

Personally, I'd much rather see some time devoted to fleshing out Mikey and Raph a bit more, especially the youngest, since he seems to get so little attention in this one other than as comic relief- a fact which irks me greatly. I like his sense of humor in Nick, but they've made him seem way too dumb, and I'd like to see him mature a bit and start to grow as a character- and that includes intellectually.

[BabyTurtles]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Yeah, I'm on the fence about the head-butting. It worked in IDW because they have different beliefs regarding the "logic" or evidence of their past lives, and that's a point of contention between them. Here, it would have to be something equally important and divisive, like April/Karai, or if Leo makes a decision Don seriously disagrees with for good reason. Maybe Timothy would come into play.

Personally, I'd much rather see some time devoted to fleshing out Mikey and Raph a bit more, especially the youngest, since he seems to get so little attention in this one other than as comic relief- a fact which irks me greatly. I like his sense of humor in Nick, but they've made him seem way too dumb, and I'd like to see him mature a bit and start to grow as a character- and that includes intellectually.

they said they made Mikey youngest on purpose so he would have room to grow and develop, so I'm sure as the episodes go on Mikey will get wiser in his own way. (but I agree more time for Mikey and Raph so they CAN develop! XD)

[victory_angel]

Leo still hasn't informed his brothers about who Karai really is, which I don't think is the right move.

The last time he hid Karai's existence from his brothers the results were

In Raph's case disappointment and somewhat smug satisfaction. He knew about Karai and his brothers infatuation with her. And had warned him that Karai was trouble with a capital 'T'

Mikey was confused as to why his older brother could trust her.

Donnie on the other hand was appalled that Leo did not trust any of them to inform them about this matter to begin with and that has created a small level of tension between them.

When Leo does confess that Karai is their "Sister", I can see Donnie being very upset that Leo didn't inform them of this. Particularly since he was down right ready to kill Karai in Target: April O'Neil.

That and there were plenty of moments where Donnie had been needing Leo and Raph to be his big brothers particularly after Mutagen Man Unleashed. And the others are of in their own world as if he doesn't matter.

[Rooish]

No. Leo should have more respect for Donnie instead of butting heads. Leo is increasingly a dismissive, alpha male jerk.

Agreed, also, that Don is getting a bit too much screen time. I kind of hate Raph but I think he needs a bit more focus.

[SpiderFly]

Leo and Donnie clashing sounds entertaining but their relationship is like the only order the team really has. Yeah, Donnie is capable of leading but to have to lead and be in charge of the tech/science stuff/arsenal is a lot to have on one's plate. Even Donnie would crack.

Raph is too emotional to lead and Mikey just can't concentrate. Leo is kind of the buffer that lets Donnie do his own thing.

As far as the Karai thing goes. . .I think Leo withholding the info on Karai is going to put a crack in that foundation, but it's also not Leo's place to say. Splinter's not ready to face the truth and who knows how tactfully the guys would handle it if they did know. They could just end up making things worse.

But also, Donnie is the only other turtle to have a crush on a girl. Leo could appeal his case to Donnie based on how far he's gone for April's sake. Donnie could be the only other turtle to really understand, though he may be dejected at first.

[Davetello]

Originally Posted by SpiderFly

Leo and Donnie clashing sounds entertaining but their relationship is like the only order the team really has. Yeah, Donnie is capable of leading but to have to lead and be in charge of the tech/science stuff/arsenal is a lot to have on one's plate. Even Donnie would crack.

Raph is too emotional to lead and Mikey just can't concentrate. Leo is kind of the buffer that lets Donnie do his own thing.

As far as the Karai thing goes. . .I think Leo withholding the info on Karai is going to put a crack in that foundation, but it's also not Leo's place to say. Splinter's not ready to face the truth and who knows how tactfully the guys would handle it if they did know. They could just end up making things worse.

But also, Donnie is the only other turtle to have a crush on a girl. Leo could appeal his case to Donnie based on how far he's gone for April's sake. Donnie could be the only other turtle to really understand, though he may be dejected at first.

Good post.

Leonardo and Donatello are the level-headed boys. They're the very foundation of the team in that respect and a rift between the two could be very destabilising for the entire dynamic and undermine the team's bigger goals - perhaps it's interesting thematically as a concept in isolation, but perhaps a bit too much to grapple with in terms of the coherency of the bigger picture. But then these sort of subplots can always contribute to a more fulfilling whole and open new avenues, so it might be interesting.

It is something that hasn't really been explored too much in any of the three series. The 1987 show wasn't really about character development, and I can't remember any major prolonged issues between these two in the 4Kids series - unless my memory has escaped me.

[victory_angel]

Originally Posted by Davetello

Good post.

Leonardo and Donatello are the level-headed boys. They're the very foundation of the team in that respect and a rift between the two could be very destabilising for the entire dynamic and undermine the team's bigger goals - perhaps it's interesting thematically as a concept in isolation, but perhaps a bit too much to grapple with in terms of the coherency of the bigger picture. But then these sort of subplots can always contribute to a more fulfilling whole and open new avenues, so it might be interesting.

It is something that hasn't really been explored too much in any of the three series. The 1987 show wasn't really about character development, and I can't remember any major prolonged issues between these two in the 4Kids series - unless my memory has escaped me.

Normally Leo and Donnie are on good terms. There are some moments in the OT version where Leo does cause some problems such as telling Donatello's that his technical gimmickry is no substitute for ninja skill. Or standing up for him by telling Michelangelo and Raphael that Donatello does more then his share. And then turning around and telling Donatello to "Fix my tooth brush and we'll call it even."

In the 2003 version, there was very little problem between them. At most Leo did view Donny as a confidant in some ways and the same was true for Donnie as well. Leo also had a protective streak when it came to Donny, and he has openly admitted he did feel lost without Donatello there. Also Leo and the other Turtles are willing to help with the technical stuff where ever they can. Such as the first Battle shell being a group project.

In the 2012 incarnation Leo has gotten more of an appreciation for Donnie's technical now how. But he is also very dependent on it as well and with all the current stuff going on in season two, it's clear Donnie has a lot more on his plate then his brothers even realize.

Donnie is struggling with creating retromutagen-to cure April's father
on an emotional roller coaster due to April's absence and having to literally put the Pulverizer on ice.
And struggling with April's new friendship with Casey.
And now that 2nd Mutations are possible that makes it all the more imperative that a way to create retromutagen be found.

(April's absence is no longer a stress factor anymore fortunately)

All of which he is dealing with alone and this is on top of having to search the city for those mutagen canisters and capturing/containing mutations.

And we've seen all this starting to have its toll on the young genius.

I don't see an absolute out and out fight between Leo and Donnie. Donnie won't challenge Leo for leadership of the team...not unless he has indisputable evidence that Leonardo should not be leader. Because if he's wrong then that could put a lot strain on the trust he has with his family.

But Donnie can lash out in other ways, such as showing uncharacteristic aggression during training, locking himself in the lab, running way from home. Other problems that could arise is Donnie becomes sick from overworking himself. Or worse yet is put in a situation where he is nearly lost forever.

Leo in this incarnation is not really likely to notice things such as what's going on with Donnie before they become more of a problem. Unfortunately in that case it could be too late.

[SpiderFly]

Originally Posted by victory_angel

In the 2012 incarnation Leo has gotten more of an appreciation for Donnie's technical now how. But he is also very dependent on it as well and with all the current stuff going on in season two, it's clear Donnie has a lot more on his plate then his brothers even realize. . .

. . .Leo in this incarnation is not really likely to notice things such as what's going on with Donnie before they become more of a problem. Unfortunately in that case it could be too late.

This is what I'm worried about. It's already been established that in Leo's eagerness to become a leader, he wants to treat his brothers like cookie cutter soldiers rather than individuals. And a part of being a good leader is to know when to push someone, and how far.

[JTH]

Originally Posted by victory_angel

Normally Leo and Donnie are on good terms. There are some moments in the OT version where Leo does cause some problems such as telling Donatello's that his technical gimmickry is no substitute for ninja skill. Or standing up for him by telling Michelangelo and Raphael that Donatello does more then his share. And then turning around and telling Donatello to "Fix my tooth brush and we'll call it even."

In the 2003 version, there was very little problem between them. At most Leo did view Donny as a confidant in some ways and the same was true for Donnie as well. Leo also had a protective streak when it came to Donny, and he has openly admitted he did feel lost without Donatello there. Also Leo and the other Turtles are willing to help with the technical stuff where ever they can. Such as the first Battle shell being a group project.

In the 2012 incarnation Leo has gotten more of an appreciation for Donnie's technical now how. But he is also very dependent on it as well and with all the current stuff going on in season two, it's clear Donnie has a lot more on his plate then his brothers even realize.

Donnie is struggling with creating retromutagen-to cure April's father
on an emotional roller coaster due to April's absence and having to literally put the Pulverizer on ice.
And struggling with April's new friendship with Casey.
And now that 2nd Mutations are possible that makes it all the more imperative that a way to create retromutagen be found.

(April's absence is no longer a stress factor anymore fortunately)

All of which he is dealing with alone and this is on top of having to search the city for those mutagen canisters and capturing/containing mutations.

And we've seen all this starting to have its toll on the young genius.

I don't see an absolute out and out fight between Leo and Donnie. Donnie won't challenge Leo for leadership of the team...not unless he has indisputable evidence that Leonardo should not be leader. Because if he's wrong then that could put a lot strain on the trust he has with his family.

But Donnie can lash out in other ways, such as showing uncharacteristic aggression during training, locking himself in the lab, running way from home. Other problems that could arise is Donnie becomes sick from overworking himself. Or worse yet is put in a situation where he is nearly lost forever.

Leo in this incarnation is not really likely to notice things such as what's going on with Donnie before they become more of a problem. Unfortunately in that case it could be too late.

I agree with everything except the bolded part.

In a way, April being back could be worse.

Knowing that her being there possibly watching him continuously fail to find a cure could no doubt be nerve-wrecking for both of them.

[victory_angel]

Originally Posted by jth

I agree with everything except the bolded part.

In a way, April being back could be worse.

Knowing that her being there possibly watching him continuously fail to find a cure could no doubt be nerve-wrecking for both of them.

I can see where your getting at. He wants to find a cure for her father because he feels he owes her that. But finding a cure is like doing the impossible, so April being around will be a stress because he's trying to do all this for her and he has nothing to show for it except a number of rejected attempts.

And of course there is her budding friendship with Casey, which will stress him out further once he and Casey become acquainted. But for now, since April is back in the Turtles's lives her absence is not putting any strain on him.

As I pointed out, a point of contention between Leo and Donnie would be Leo trying to reason with his brother that maybe he shouldn't be so focused on trying to get get April to like him. And his reasons for it is so Donnie won't get hurt or does something he will end up regretting. But Donnie could take it the wrong way and think Leo is saying "Give up, you have no chance with April."

[victory_angel]

Anyone get the impression that Donnie and Leo's are getting built up for something?

[BabyTurtles]

Originally Posted by victory_angel

Anyone get the impression that Donnie and Leo's are getting built up for something?

what do you mean? their relationship?

[DarkLightDragon]

Not really. Since any conflict they had with the recent episode ceased with Leo admitting he should've trusted him and shares his remorse for Metalhead's sacrifice.

[Cure]

Originally Posted by victory_angel

Anyone get the impression that Donnie and Leo's are getting built up for something?

No. You do a lot of crazy projecting.

[Electric]

today they did butt heads. i liked it. it seemed natural that the leader is worried about an ai that can be turned on them, while the creator is defensive and believes in his invention.

as far as something built up? not so much. i think any tension was resolved at the end, not to say they wont butt heads again

[shuriken]

Not like in IDW no. But everyone should butt heads with their siblings at least once. 'sjust how life is for teens, hell I had brawls with my older sister over the most mundane crap. It's only natural that the TMNT but heads every once in a while.