New Ciro Nieli podcast... the future of Nick TMNT & more!

[Electric]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

I'm not the one making the problem. I'm the one who asked a question. A single question. People are seeking to hold Ciro responsible for his words.



There's a whole lot of selfish going around, it seems.

I haven't removed Ciro's ability to access the internet. I haven't banned him from this forum, facebook, or tumblr. He has the exact same wealth of conversation options at his fingertips that I do.

The rest of the interview IS awesome. I'm very proud of my cast mates for making it so, and I'm honored to have had a chance to talk to Ciro.

But...I won't be held responsible for the consequences of his words. They're his words, if he didn't want them to be nitpicked and scrutinized...then he shouldn't have said them.

Again, I don't think that Mr Nieli is a misogyist. I think that the choices he and his staff have made with regard to character design and implementation leaves the show open to attack on several fronts.

Of which you are partaking in the attacking

[plastroncafe]

Criticism isn't the same as Attacking.

[demonsweat]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

I'm not the one making the problem. I'm the one who asked a question. A single question. People are seeking to hold Ciro responsible for his words.



There's a whole lot of selfish going around, it seems.

I haven't removed Ciro's ability to access the internet. I haven't banned him from this forum, facebook, or tumblr. He has the exact same wealth of conversation options at his fingertips that I do.

The rest of the interview IS awesome. I'm very proud of my cast mates for making it so, and I'm honored to have had a chance to talk to Ciro.

But...I won't be held responsible for the consequences of his words. They're his words, if he didn't want them to be nitpicked and scrutinized...then he shouldn't have said them.

Again, I don't think that Mr Nieli is a misogyist. I think that the choices he and his staff have made with regard to character design and implementation leaves the show open to attack on several fronts.

I responded to this, but I put it in another forum. I assume since you have access to the internet, you'll find it. See ya there!

[Matches Malone]

Originally Posted by demonsweat

I gotta disagree with that. It's great that there are shows with strong female characters, there should be. But why should every show fit a specific model? And why only women? Does Adventure Time accurately represent Asian people? Does Steven Universe have characters of different sexual orientations? What's the ratio of cats to dogs in Airbender, will my cat be offended watching with me?

Everyone wants to be represented. But that's not possible to do in every work of art. Over PC-ification stifles creativity. Let the work stand on it's own. I never understood how someone's enjoyment of something could be based solely on whether or not they feel personally, accurately portrayed within it.

If you have a story to tell, then go out and tell it. Don't expect someone else to do it for you. Rebecca Sugar is a good example. She worked hard to get where she is, to do the show she wanted to do. Let that inspire other women to do the same. I never liked this, "we shouldn't have to!" thing. You wanna change the world, sister, then get off your butt and do it. Crying sexism at every turn is not the way towards progress.

I would actually argue the opposite. To say you avoid writing women because it's more difficult (paraphrasing, obviously), it seems like you are limiting yourself. The typical female characters we see are so limited. Where's the creativity? Unfortunately it's because the flipside is that what's not PC is stifling it. "I can't think of any good ways to have a female character except, oh! let's give Mikey a girlfriend" In fact, the problem with racism, sexism, homophobia and all prejudices is they are all essentially different cases of severe tunnel vision. Why would we make this character "x race/gender/etc" if they aren't "x stereotype" is the kind of thinking presented here. Seeing characters who don't fit into a stereotype is more interesting and creative because that character could be anything. Saying female characters need a reason to be introduced to the show is what's limiting, and there's no need for it. People never say a male character needs a reason to be introduced. It doesn't feel shoehorned that a majority of the male characters we see didn't need to be male. That's the heart of the inequality here. Not the number of female characters, but how they are considered differently than male ones. The number is simply a symptom of that.

As to the idea that not every show can perfectly represent everyone and every group. You're right, it wouldn't be natural or even possible. But here's the thing... As opposed to maybe other social groups, when it comes to women, they're kind of... everywhere. To say having more than 2 female characters without a "reason" would be shoehorning, that'd be like walking into a restaurant and seeing more than 2 women in a room full of men and thinking, "Whoa, that's weird.... I wonder what's going on?" This is New York City not an alien planet. A female foot soldier wouldn't be uncreative. A female mutant wouldn't be uncreative. It would be the opposite because we haven't seen that at all.

Girls can relate to male characters, obviously and the reverse is true. Yes, traits like courage, cowardice, humor are all universal. However, being a "girl" is still also a part of their identity. So if a girl's favorite character is Donatello, you could ask "why would you pick Donnie? you obviously chose wrong." But you could also ask, "does this character make you feel like being a girl is ok?" And sadly the answer is no. We can debate how important it is, but I'm just trying to clarify this point. Maybe she feels good that Donnie is smart and she wants to be smart too. Positive, right? Nothing wrong with wanting to give girls a little more opportunity to feel like she wants to be a girl too. Boys have more than enough characters that can make them feel like it's ok (if not better) to be a boy.

There are many sincere folks on here that want to understand, so please accept that there's nothing wrong with wanting better. You can enjoy a show and wish it were better. As for how people behave, I can't speak for that.

[plastroncafe]

Nah, I'm all set here, but I appreciate the invitation.
Besides, chances are good there are already people on that site making the same case that I am, and doing a great deal of a better job than I ever could.

Case in point: Matches Malone.
Though...I guess that's not really a case in point, seeing as they're HERE, and not...in this nebulous elsewhere.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by DarkLightDragon

Just can't give a rest, can you guys?

It's feminism. Some people can't give it a rest because they have this obsession with female rights in a children's cartoon.

I don't see anyone complaining that Baxter is the only black guy in the Nick show. We need more black people like Bebop!

[demonsweat]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

Nah, I'm all set here, but I appreciate the invitation.
Besides, chances are good there are already people on that site making the same case that I am, and doing a great deal of a better job than I ever could.

Case in point: Matches Malone.
Though...I guess that's not really a case in point, seeing as they're HERE, and not...in this nebulous elsewhere.

[kelligrafie]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

It's feminism. Some people can't give it a rest because they have this obsession with female rights in a children's cartoon.

I don't see anyone complaining that Baxter is the only black guy in the Nick show. We need more black people like Bebop!

We have Shredder, Splinter and Karai, who are Japanese, Baxter who is African American, Xever/Fishface who I think is Brazilian...

If anyone's under-represented it's Europeans.

Let's have a German exchange student, who befriends April and gets embroiled in a love square with her, Casey and Donnie.

[MiBs]

Wow, this thread just exploded while I was sleeping .... and at work. I'm reluctant to go into the whole gender debate, because it always the same thing over and over again. But I will say this though

I'm a woman and I was a huge fan of the OT, when I was a kid. The only kids I knew, that where also interested in the Turtles were boys - I'm happy that's not like that anymore, but back then I thought that it was a show for boys, and "cool girls".

I identified myself the most with Raph, and he was my favorite character - eventhough he was a boy. I liked April, but she wasn't the reason I loved the show. She's an important part of the story, and I thinks she is way more explored and developed as a character on the Nick show, than she was in the OT.

I find it very difficult to understand why some see the lack of female characters as a big deal. Do we need another human girl (Irma) - what would she be good for. Yes she could be Aprils friend, and they could have some interactions, but in the big picture - what would she tribute with. (I thought Irma was very annoying on the OT, so I'm a bit biased)

I would much rather that they develope Karai and April and really work on the writing instead of just throwing in female characters to make a gender balance.

And on a very different note - seriously, pick your battles. I don't mind a little sister solidarity. But there's far more important issues - trafficking, equal pay for equal work, womens rights, the balance between male and female experts in media, the sexualisation of public space, gender balance in decision-making positions....and I could go on...... "The Turtles" is way down on that list

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by demonsweat

Not really no, but...it was a nice attempt just the same.

Cyber, you're awesome.
Actually going out of your way to say that an obsession with female rights is somehow a bad thing. It's adorable.

[CyberCubed]

It's because while people do want more female characters in the show, there's nothing wrong with the cast being mostly male in a show like this.

It's tokenism. There aren't any gay people on Nick's TMNT (at least that we know), so is that homophobic too?

[Matches Malone]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

Nah, I'm all set here, but I appreciate the invitation.
Besides, chances are good there are already people on that site making the same case that I am, and doing a great deal of a better job than I ever could.

Case in point: Matches Malone.
Though...I guess that's not really a case in point, seeing as they're HERE, and not...in this nebulous elsewhere.

Hey, thanks! You know it's kind of insane but it was reading posts from you and some other feminists on this forum that really opened my mind to thinking about how we perceive minorities in media. I used to be on other side of the fence about how to encourage and foster diversity within it: let's find the minority creators and lift them up to offer an alternative to what we find lacking. No need to push this responsibility on everyone. But now I can see that the reasons for any creator to omit minorities is often pretty weak. A female mutant would feel shoehorned? Nah... That's because we think a female mutant has to act... "female." I try not to be a dick about it because I know how it feels; this stuff is complex and subtle. But yeah, point still stands.

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

It's because while people do want more female characters in the show, there's nothing wrong with the cast being mostly male in a show like this.

It's tokenism. There aren't any gay people on Nick's TMNT (at least that we know), so is that homophobic too?

There's no need to go to extremes when it comes to lack of diversity. Ciro is not a misogynist but hopefully can consider that he could do a better job with female characters. Obviously the show does not bash women, gays, or minorities. But is it so terrible to say that marginalization or in the case you brought up, total ignoring isn't helping? AKA The show's great but not the most progressive. It's a perceived downside, not an attack on minorities.

[Colonel Schrader]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

There aren't any gay people on Nick's TMNT (at least that we know), so is that homophobic too?

don't give them any ideas! they might start some rat king x splinter love thing..

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by Matches Malone

Hey, thanks! You know it's kind of insane but it was reading posts from you and some other feminists on this forum that really opened my mind to thinking about how we perceive minorities in media. I used to be on other side of the fence about how to encourage and foster diversity within it: let's find the minority creators and lift them up to offer an alternative to what we find lacking. No need to push this responsibility on everyone. But now I can see that the reasons for any creator to omit minorities is often pretty weak. A female mutant would feel shoehorned? Nah... That's because we think a female mutant has to act... "female." I try not to be a dick about it because I know how it feels; this stuff is complex and subtle. But yeah, point still stands.

Hey thanks! I appreciate the kind words, but love the pay-it-forward attitude. I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't want the dynamic of the show changed, or its core themes rewritten. I just think a little nuance would take an already great show and make it fantastic.

[demonsweat]

Originally Posted by Matches Malone

I would actually argue the opposite. To say you avoid writing women because it's more difficult (paraphrasing, obviously), it seems like you are limiting yourself. The typical female characters we see are so limited. Where's the creativity? Unfortunately it's because the flipside is that what's not PC is stifling it. "I can't think of any good ways to have a female character except, oh! let's give Mikey a girlfriend" In fact, the problem with racism, sexism, homophobia and all prejudices is they are all essentially different cases of severe tunnel vision. Why would we make this character "x race/gender/etc" if they aren't "x stereotype" is the kind of thinking presented here. Seeing characters who don't fit into a stereotype is more interesting and creative because that character could be anything. Saying female characters need a reason to be introduced to the show is what's limiting, and there's no need for it. People never say a male character needs a reason to be introduced. It doesn't feel shoehorned that a majority of the male characters we see didn't need to be male. That's the heart of the inequality here. Not the number of female characters, but how they are considered differently than male ones. The number is simply a symptom of that.

As to the idea that not every show can perfectly represent everyone and every group. You're right, it wouldn't be natural or even possible. But here's the thing... As opposed to maybe other social groups, when it comes to women, they're kind of... everywhere. To say having more than 2 female characters without a "reason" would be shoehorning, that'd be like walking into a restaurant and seeing more than 2 women in a room full of men and thinking, "Whoa, that's weird.... I wonder what's going on?" This is New York City not an alien planet. A female foot soldier wouldn't be uncreative. A female mutant wouldn't be uncreative. It would be the opposite because we haven't seen that at all.

Girls can relate to male characters, obviously and the reverse is true. Yes, traits like courage, cowardice, humor are all universal. However, being a "girl" is still also a part of their identity. So if a girl's favorite character is Donatello, you could ask "why would you pick Donnie? you obviously chose wrong." But you could also ask, "does this character make you feel like being a girl is ok?" And sadly the answer is no. We can debate how important it is, but I'm just trying to clarify this point. Maybe she feels good that Donnie is smart and she wants to be smart too. Positive, right? Nothing wrong with wanting to give girls a little more opportunity to feel like she wants to be a girl too. Boys have more than enough characters that can make them feel like it's ok (if not better) to be a boy.

There are many sincere folks on here that want to understand, so please accept that there's nothing wrong with wanting better. You can enjoy a show and wish it were better. As for how people behave, I can't speak for that.

Nah, there's nothing wrong with wanting more. I want Bishop to show up in the show, I love that guy. I just think it's wrong criticize the creators because they didn't do what I wanted. I don't see the lack of female representation in a single work of fiction as being detrimental to all of society. I like variety in my stories. I don't want every single book I read to follow a set rule of equal gender. That sounds like some bland, dystopian nightmare.

I like to write. I don't sit down and do an outline for a story and tick off how many of each particular group is covered before I write it, though. That would be crazy, no artist would do that. People create what they want to create and I think it's fine to want more. But that's your story, not Ciro Nieli's. Let him tell his the way he wants to. You can always change the channel and watch something you like more.

[Matches Malone]

Originally Posted by demonsweat

Nah, there's nothing wrong with wanting more. I want Bishop to show up in the show, I love that guy. I just think it's wrong criticize the creators because they didn't do what I wanted. I don't see the lack of female representation in a single work of fiction as being detrimental to all of society. I like variety in my stories. I don't want every single book I read to follow a set rule of equal gender. That sounds like some bland, dystopian nightmare.

I like to write. I don't sit down and do an outline for a story and tick off how many of each particular group is covered before I write it, though. That would be crazy, no artist would do that. People create what they want to create and I think it's fine to want more. But that's your story, not Ciro Nieli's. Let him tell his the way he wants to. You can always change the channel and watch something you like more.

Most of my point though, was not that Ciro's not doing something I personally want. It's that this problem directly relates to creativity too. When I see a stereotypical character, I don't just think, "this is so wrong." I probably will, but I'm also thinking, "this is so boring." Girl in distress? Again? Tough street-smarts black guy? Meh... Ciro and the whole crew will write the stories they want, which have been overall, super fun. And they have every right to. I'm just saying the stories would be even better and interesting with a little more diversity. And there's obviously a point where you do think about, "ok, how's this character going to look? what's his/her background?" How much more diversity? Who knows. 51% male and 49% male, you most likely won't hear anything from me. Even 60/40. But 2 female characters out of hundreds? I don't think that's necessarily a nitpick just because others may not care.

EDIT: I think Bishop is a pretty interesting character too that just fits so naturally into the TMNT universe. He could've been a female too...

[Vicky82]

I'm female and this is my opionion.

I agree that TMNT has enough female characters (April and Karai). Both OT and 2K3 didn't have many females in it. If they put any few new minor female characters in the show then i'm not bothered.

Ok on the 'don't want the female more powerful than males in a boys show' I agree with it's like someone saying they don't want males more powerful than females in a girl's show' April has never been powerful female character in all incarnations of TMNT (unless she was in Mirage or Archie Comics) She wasn't in every single episode in 2K3.

Ok that's my opinion and it's not something i'm going to lose sleep over.

[Matches Malone]

I'm just kinda bummed because the writing and voice acting is sooo good. The IDW comic has better diversity and plots but the writing is sooo bland... Guess you really can't have your cake and eat it too.

[plastroncafe]

For everything else there's Fanfiction.net/ArchiveOfOurOwn.

[Konchadunga]

Originally Posted by Matches Malone

But 2 female characters out of hundreds? I don't think that's necessarily a nitpick just because others may not care.

Wait; hundreds? I'm reasonably sure there aren't hundreds of characters in this show. I don't see why there need to be, either. The given directive, as it looks to be, is that they adapt characters who were already in the license before. This means April and Karai are obvious; such people as Irma and Renet are less obvious, but possible. Still, there's no denying that most of these past characters are male. Let's remember that. The show isn't going out of its way to ostracize females, but fanservice to the base almost necessitates many characters being male. If he actually turned Bebop and Rocksteady female, that would be stupid.