Official Episode Discussion S2 #12 "Of Rats and Men"

[plastroncafe]

I fail to see how Nick's TMNT isn't thematically dark, regardless of the demographic it's aimed at.

Thus far we've seen:

-A man kidnap and raise his arch-rival's daughter
-The acknowledged burned alive death of Karai's mother and Splinter's wife.
-The dissolving of Timothy, his abduction, and storage in a container which resides in the background of our heroes' home.
-Parasitic mutated squirrels that emerge from their hosts via the alimentary tract
-A man forcibly mutated into a non-mobile creature who is then locked into a closet he can't escape from.

These are twisted and dark things.
We don't need "gore" or "death" for things to be darker. Those aren't the only defining factors of horror. They're just easiest for shock value.

[Cure]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

-A man forcibly mutated into a non-mobile creature who is then locked into a closet he can't escape from.

Who are you speaking about? This doesn't ring a bell.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by Cure

Who are you speaking about? This doesn't ring a bell.

The guy in this Rat King ep that was the failed experiment of a human turning into a rat.

[Cure]

Oh, yeah. It was the closet part that was throwing me off. I thought he was just laying on the floor.

[Candy Kappa]

I highly doubt anyone is that stupid that they will put their real-life alive cat in the freezer.

Originally Posted by kolaida

Actually, I wish one of the turtles would adopt a kinder diet and become vegetarian at least (even though dairy is horrible for the body). I think that would be a better message than just not showing horrible things happening because horrible things do happen and it's best to learn how to deal with it. But I do appreciate your passion (I own two kitties myself).

Maybe when they get older, since they are most likely still growing, a varied diet should be the best for them. Young Sliders have a mostly meat based diet and goes over to more greens as they get older.

Turtles cant actually digest dairy, but... Mutants, I guess they got that ability as they mutated after human contact.

Donnie's ones in the Out of the Shadows games asks if there is a vegetarian option for the pizzas they pick up as health-ups. And sighs when picking up pizzas, saying "great, calories"

[OrangeNinja1987]

Originally Posted by beavercartoon

Thanks, kolaida. Everybody's got their own 'berserk button' that sets them off. I did feel sorry for some of the other mutants including the squirrels, Pigeon Pete, the professor from Monkey Brains, Timothy, and Kirby.

But most of those mutants maintained some sentience. Most of them are able to function. With his robotic legs and breathing device, Xever/Fishface can still fight. Bradford/Dogpound was openly upset about his first mutation, and had a more positive reaction to becoming Rahzar.

Slash and Rahzar are but too examples of mutants who now prefer their new appearance and abilities, and they can vocalize their feelings.

Ice Cream Kitty is not portrayed as an intelligent anthropomorphic creature the way Splinter, Slash, and the turtles all are. Ice Cream Kitty is a more tragic mutant, one that still retains most of their animal instincts but now may not be able survive in the environments it was used to.

It hits harder for me because I own cats, I love and care for them. I have also unfortunately encountered people who are deliberately cruel to animals.

Shoving a normal cat into a freezer WILL kill them. It's something that should have been mentioned in-show, so no child tries that at home, and so that's clear that all the characters- including Mikey- realize what poor decisions resulted in Ice Cream Kitty. Instead, their mistakes are practically justified by the script, since Ice Cream Kitty was able to be a secret weapon to help defeat the Rat King.

But Ice Cream Kitty is not Metalhead. She shouldn't be treated as a weapon or a cool toy, but as a living creature who must now be responsibly cared for. She's not the typical mutant, being partially based on ice cream makes her more vulnerable.

We don't know what would happen if she melted, would she die? What if only parts of her dribbled out and get left behind? Does she regenerate everything? Does she feel pain when she melts? Is her intelligence or motor skills diminished in any way when a part of her melts?

Metalhead can, has, and will be rebuilt if/when he is damaged in a fight. Ice Cream Kitty can not be healed so easily. Until and unless she is restored to her normal self, her quality of life has been lessened the same way Kirby, Timothy, and others were harmed by their mutants. But they at least were able to make more conscious choices that led to their mutations.

Timothy KNEW what he was doing was dangerous. Bradford kept attacking Mikey even though his balance was precarious. Kirby chose to protect April from the mutagen, even though it meant being splashed himself. Even the human who became Spider-Bytez made a choice to reach for his phone instead of heading to safety. All the cat knew was that it was hungry, and there was food nearby. It had no way of knowing that food was tainted.

To everyone who implies that I just blame Mikey, oh no. My post made specific mention of the bad call April made (bringing a stray cat to the lair) Donatello's part (the mutagen) and Mikey's part (the ice cream, not being fully attentive to the cat's needs.)

I'm pretty disgusted with the actions of all 3 of them. The disappointment in Mikey goes a little further because he had previously been portrayed as the animal-lover and was the caretaker of Klunk (a cute non mutant cat) in other incarnations.

Yes, I remember the comic where Klunk dies after getting hit by a car. That's tragic, and Mikey actually does attempt to save the poor dying animal's life, almost resorting to black magic to bring Klunk back. Mikey accepts Klunk's death in the comic and so did I, because it was presented in a somber manner not played up as a comedic element.

So yes, I'm still a fan of TMNT overall. BUT there were some things in Nick TMNT that didn't sit well with me (just as I'm sure most fans are not 100% satisfied with every story in every version of TMNT), and this event was my personal breaking point. I'm not saying that other people can't watch it and continue to enjoy it, just that I won't. Nobody has to agree with me on any of this, it's only my opinion.

I'll still kick around on the forums from time to time, but I can't tune in to the new episodes. I tried to be more rational and 'get over it' but looking at Ice Cream Kitty makes me feel physically sick.

(As a recovering anorexic, combining favorite domestic animal with a food I haven't eaten in over 10 years due to the caloric content of such treats, it's a double whammy of anxiety. I don't even really like seeing the turtles eat pizza but I've conditioned myself to accept that because it's ALWAYS been something they do. I don't think I can train myself to view Ice Cream Kitty as a regular TMNT feature. Thinking of her is too disheartening.)

I love animals as well, and it pains me to see any abused or mistreated. However, Ice Cream Kitty does not anger me or disgust me. In fact, I love her. We must remember that this is a cartoon and that ICK's transformation was a tragic accident, and we shouldn't blame Mikey because he was petting the cat and being kind to it, when he looked away for one second and the cat touched the mutagen. He loved that cat and did his very best to take care of it, knowing that it could melt. Mikey is compassionate to everything, no matter how ugly other people might think it is, because he knows to humans he is just as much as a monster as ICK or Leatherhead.
I also wonder why this cat is so many people's breaking points. So far in this show we've seen tons of grotesque mutations. Nobody was this set off about the failed rat/human mutation, even if it was disgusting. No, everyone's just angry about the cat because cats are cute. If someone is going to complain about animal cruelty in the show, complain about the unhealthy rat/human, not the content, well-taken-care-of ICK.
Also, doesn't every episode of this entire show, even the OT and 2003 series, include animal abuse? Why are turtles getting beaten up and/or beating up other animals not considered animal abuse, huh? We must remember that this is a cartoon, and in cartoons Sponges take jobs as fry cooks, animals talk, platypi become secret agents, and men fly through the air. So in a show that already is about mutated ninja turtles trained by a rat sensei, named after Renaissance artists and living in the sewer, an Ice Cream Kitty seems perfectly at home.

[Candy Kappa]

Yeah... The whole show would be about animal cruelty as the turtles gets their fair share of beating.

They are after all animals just like ICK, just because they have pose-able thumbs, a bipedal body and the ability to speak like a human, they are still pet store bought RES.

[TurFlytle]

Originally Posted by Candy Kappa

Yeah... The whole show would be about animal cruelty as the turtles gets their fair share of beating.

They are after all animals just like ICK, just because they have pose-able thumbs, a bipedal body and the ability to speak like a human, they are still pet store bought RES.

Well at least PETA doesn't even give a crap about this show or else it'll be the Super Mario and Pokemon thing all over again.

[Powder]

Originally Posted by Gabriel GP

I know it, but even for kids, still not dark for me. I don't know about you, but when I was 5-6 yo, I was already seeing things made for adults, of course that I liked watch cartoons ( I still like nowadays ) but I'm just saying that this show isn't nearly close to be "dark" even for kids. They see much worse on internet.

Just because you were desensitized to graphic imagery as a kid due to poor parenting doesn't mean the definition of "dark" changes.

Dark does not = gore/murder/satanism like you edgy fellows seem to think.

[Donatello19]

Originally Posted by Powder

Dark does not = gore/murder/satanism

Exactly. Things like Shredder kidnapping Splinter's daughter at a young age and raising her to curse her own father's name...that's dark.

[Metalwolf]

@Baby Turtles True Although I do hope that they still end up changing her back eventually. She is just too cute to remain in a refrigerator most of the time.

Originally Posted by Candy Kappa

Yeah... The whole show would be about animal cruelty as the turtles gets their fair share of beating.

They are after all animals just like ICK, just because they have pose-able thumbs, a bipedal body and the ability to speak like a human, they are still pet store bought RES.

That is pretty much the idea I share too, as I consider the Turtles as animals, and any mutated humans, as human.

[MCLeo28]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

I fail to see how Nick's TMNT isn't thematically dark, regardless of the demographic it's aimed at.

Thus far we've seen:

-A man kidnap and raise his arch-rival's daughter
-The acknowledged burned alive death of Karai's mother and Splinter's wife.
-The dissolving of Timothy, his abduction, and storage in a container which resides in the background of our heroes' home.
-Parasitic mutated squirrels that emerge from their hosts via the alimentary tract
-A man forcibly mutated into a non-mobile creature who is then locked into a closet he can't escape from.

These are twisted and dark things.
We don't need "gore" or "death" for things to be darker. Those aren't the only defining factors of horror. They're just easiest for shock value.

This. You have a huge misunderstanding of what "dark" is if you consider it only to be gore or death.

[TurFlytle]

Originally Posted by MCLeo28

This. You have a huge misunderstanding of what "dark" is if you consider it only to be gore or death.

Ok, I get the point now.

[Gabriel GP]

Originally Posted by Powder

Just because you were desensitized to graphic imagery as a kid due to poor parenting doesn't mean the definition of "dark" changes.

Dark does not = gore/murder/satanism like you edgy fellows seem to think.

I always enjoyed more about things with more serious tone. So thats why I had interesting for things that were set for adults and teenagers. And no, I didn't see any thing explicit or even gore until I become a teenager. If you understood that I was watching the chainsaw massacre or anything like that just because I said that I watch things made for adults since little, you really have a very limited vision of what meant for adults addresses.

And please. Stop judging me or my parents just because I'm not as sensitive as you or anyone else here, that is just my opinion. You said that I had a poor parenting, but even with my poor parenting, I know that comments like yours can make people very sad. So that makes us even. I'm insensitive for graphic imagery as you for feelings. So please, save your sarcasm for yourself, and think twice before posting something that could offend someone.

Obs: Somebody isn't my fellow just because posts something that you think that is my opinion. Cuz it isn't.

Obs2: Satanism it isn't a definition of dark either. It's just a religion like any other.

Sorry if I offended someone.

[Powder]

Originally Posted by Gabriel GP

I always enjoyed more about things with more serious tone. So thats why I had interesting for things that were set for adults and teenagers. And no, I didn't see any thing explicit or even gore until I become a teenager. If you understood that I was watching the chainsaw massacre or anything like that just because I said that I watch things made for adults since little, you really have a very limited vision of what meant for adults addresses.

And please. Stop judging me or my parents just because I'm not as sensitive as you or anyone else here, that is just my opinion. You said that I had a poor parenting, but even with my poor parenting, I know that comments like yours can make people very sad. So that makes us even. I'm insensitive for graphic imagery as you for feelings. So please, save your sarcasm for yourself, and think twice before posting something that could offend someone.

Obs: Somebody isn't my fellow just because posts something that you think that is my opinion. Cuz it isn't.

Obs2: Satanism it isn't a definition of dark either. It's just a religion like any other.

Sorry if I offended someone.

I don't have a limited vision, you made a very vague post. It's not my fault you left us to make assumptions. & Knowing the actual definition of dark when in comes to visual media does not make a person "sensitive". I'm a smut enthusiast, hardly sensitive to graphic imagery. I just know what is dark and what isn't, in the context of a childrens show especially. Satanic practices like sacrifice are in fact dark, guy. It might be a broad term but it absolutely can include some horrible sights.

Fellow-
2.
a person in the same position, involved in the same activity, or otherwise associated with another.

[Jester]

Hey Powder.
Thanks for introducing me to the Troma library of schlock.
You friend,
Jester

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by Gabriel GP

I always enjoyed more about things with more serious tone. So thats why I had interesting for things that were set for adults and teenagers. And no, I didn't see any thing explicit or even gore until I become a teenager. If you understood that I was watching the chainsaw massacre or anything like that just because I said that I watch things made for adults since little, you really have a very limited vision of what meant for adults addresses.

And please. Stop judging me or my parents just because I'm not as sensitive as you or anyone else here, that is just my opinion. You said that I had a poor parenting, but even with my poor parenting, I know that comments like yours can make people very sad. So that makes us even. I'm insensitive for graphic imagery as you for feelings. So please, save your sarcasm for yourself, and think twice before posting something that could offend someone.

Obs: Somebody isn't my fellow just because posts something that you think that is my opinion. Cuz it isn't.

Obs2: Satanism it isn't a definition of dark either. It's just a religion like any other.

Sorry if I offended someone.

No worries, there. I'm the same way. Been reading adult novels and watching adult movies since the 4th grade- mostly because as an only child I had to entertain myself, and my mother instilled a love of reading and cinema at an early age.

My thoughts on this ep- Dark? YES! Creepy? Definitely- give me more! Disturbing? ICK and that poor rat-guy- check. Did I like it? HECK yeah! Now, on ICK: I felt sorry for it at first, and it was certainly one of the more grotesque and disturbing mutations, but I loved her. And am I the only one who winced at the way both April and Mikey were holding her in the beginning? Cats don't like to be held the ways those two were doing, but, meh, whatever. As far as keeping her in the freezer goes- where ELSE do you put ice cream? Since she is MADE of the stuff, I doubt she'd need oxygen, but she most definitely would melt. And I liked the bit about Mikey using the old cooler pail to keep her in as his secret weapon when they went after the Rat King. She was just do darn cute I couldn't help but laugh!

The Rat King part was very, um, creepy and yes, dark. I understood Splinter's fear, even to the point of telling Leo to do whatever was necessary if he tried to hurt them or anyone else. He's a very caring parent, with some very real fears to face. Also, Casey and Irma in the cage was priceless. I liked how he tried to disguise his voice- for all of about five seconds. Then he goes back to his normal one just a few seconds later. And Irma was STILL clueless. I really liked her in this episode. The more I see of her, the more I like this version of her. She's nerdy, spunky, and has that cool vibe like she could be fun to hang with. Not seeing the man-crazy thing with her yet, either. I miss that, but that's okay. She's great in this version, too.

[Gabriel GP]

Originally Posted by Powder

I don't have a limited vision, you made a very vague post. It's not my fault you left us to make assumptions. & Knowing the actual definition of dark when in comes to visual media does not make a person "sensitive". I'm a smut enthusiast, hardly sensitive to graphic imagery. I just know what is dark and what isn't, in the context of a childrens show especially. Satanic practices like sacrifice are in fact dark, guy. It might be a broad term but it absolutely can include some horrible sights. Besides, in case you don't know, there isn't only one kind of satanism

Fellow-
2.
a person in the same position, involved in the same activity, or otherwise associated with another.

What is dark for you can't be for me to start. And just because someone kills a animal saying that is for satan, dosen't necessarily means that he indeed is satanist. Many times in history, we saw "christians" sacrificing people in the name of God nor why we include those things as christians practices, so do not generalize.

TurFlytle position was that to be dark necessarily it has to be gore. Mine was only that the show isn't that serious to be called dark. And again in my point of view. So, we aren't in the same position, neither involved in the same activity, or otherwise associated with another.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Yeah, I tend to feel that "dark" is a subjective term, as well. Dark for whom? my dark is not the same as someone else's, and clearly, neither is yours. And the tone can still be dark even if the content seems light on the surface. (ICK, anyone? That mutation was flat-out disturbing to watch. Not to mention gross.) It was done partly for laughs, but it was still one of the worst they've shown yet.

[Gabriel GP]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

No worries, there. I'm the same way. Been reading adult novels and watching adult movies since the 4th grade- mostly because as an only child I had to entertain myself, and my mother instilled a love of reading and cinema at an early age.

My thoughts on this ep- Dark? YES! Creepy? Definitely- give me more! Disturbing? ICK and that poor rat-guy- check. Did I like it? HECK yeah! Now, on ICK: I felt sorry for it at first, and it was certainly one of the more grotesque and disturbing mutations, but I loved her. And am I the only one who winced at the way both April and Mikey were holding her in the beginning? Cats don't like to be held the ways those two were doing, but, meh, whatever. As far as keeping her in the freezer goes- where ELSE do you put ice cream? Since she is MADE of the stuff, I doubt she'd need oxygen, but she most definitely would melt. And I liked the bit about Mikey using the old cooler pail to keep her in as his secret weapon when they went after the Rat King. She was just do darn cute I couldn't help but laugh!

The Rat King part was very, um, creepy and yes, dark. I understood Splinter's fear, even to the point of telling Leo to do whatever was necessary if he tried to hurt them or anyone else. He's a very caring parent, with some very real fears to face. Also, Casey and Irma in the cage was priceless. I liked how he tried to disguise his voice- for all of about five seconds. Then he goes back to his normal one just a few seconds later. And Irma was STILL clueless. I really liked her in this episode. The more I see of her, the more I like this version of her. She's nerdy, spunky, and has that cool vibe like she could be fun to hang with. Not seeing the man-crazy thing with her yet, either. I miss that, but that's okay. She's great in this version, too.

Glad that someone understands me. And didn't bother me mikey putting her in the freezer, after all, she is made of ice cream *giggles*, just hoping to see more of her and mikey together.