Episode Discussion S2 #16 "The Lonely Mutation of Baxter Stockman"

[Metalwolf]

Originally Posted by Sewer Sirens Podcast

Okay, here's a problem I have with retro mutagen:

Nothing is permanent anymore.

Now that any mutant can be 'undone', to me at least, it makes the show a little less interesting. Whenever someone ends up being 'mutated', it's not something permanent and substantial anymore. It's not going to be as special or shocking.
--------


It'd be cool for the Shredder to use this against them, and Donnie has to destroy everything that helped him make the retro mutagen.

Bottom Line: I don't want the retro mutagen to be around too long

Actually, the Foot would have a hard time in making a retromutagen because they don't have April. And I doubt the Turtles will blurt out what April is, or that they need her DNA to make it and why.

Plus it takes 10 months to create another batch, even with a tank full of the stuff. So any mutants will still be mutants for the better part of a year, or even if they want to be changed back, since most of the mutated-animal ones don't seem to want to revert back to their animal forms.. And if a human is double-mutated (as in the case of Rahzar) then they might not be able to be cured at all.

[Sewer Sirens Podcast]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Mutants not being permanent has never been the issue with the show. It was always obvious most of the humans would get turned back to normal.

I don't necessarily think so. There's a difference between WANTING to be turned back to human and turning back to human. If you were a human, wouldn't you express your opinion about how it stinks (that is, if you think it stinks)?

Originally Posted by Metalwolf

Actually, the Foot would have a hard time in making a retromutagen because they don't have April. And I doubt the Turtles will blurt out what April is, or that they need her DNA to make it and why.

Plus it takes 10 months to create another batch, even with a tank full of the stuff. So any mutants will still be mutants for the better part of a year, or even if they want to be changed back, since most of the mutated-animal ones don't seem to want to revert back to their animal forms.. And if a human is double-mutated (as in the case of Rahzar) then they might not be able to be cured at all.

I'm not necessarily saying they would have to make the retromutagen. They could do something as simple as stealing or retrieving it from the turtles, just like Baxter did in this episode.

But, yes, I get your point. I'm just hoping this 'retromutagen' addition to the show isn't just another way to sell a bunch of more toys and do more temporary mutant of the week episodes.

[Metalwolf]

Originally Posted by Sewer Sirens Podcast

I'm not necessarily saying they would have to make the retromutagen. They could do something as simple as stealing or retrieving it from the turtles, just like Baxter did in this episode.

But, yes, I get your point. I'm just hoping this 'retromutagen' addition to the show isn't just another way to sell a bunch of more toys and do more temporary mutant of the week episodes.

But any Foot mutant that stole it ended up trying to use it on themselves, none of them even gave a moment's thought to dumping it on a Turtle. So if there is the very rare retro-mutagen produced, the Turtles will be more worried about the thieves taking it to use on themselves then over any possibility of it being used against them. They only have very limited quantities of the mutagen, plus it takes months to create just a small amount from 10 canisters. I doubt the Foot would hand over more of the stuff just to help their enemies, especially not with Shredder in control.

[victory_angel]

Originally Posted by Sewer Sirens Podcast

Okay, here's a problem I have with retro mutagen:

Nothing is permanent anymore.

Now that any mutant can be 'undone', to me at least, it makes the show a little less interesting. Whenever someone ends up being 'mutated', it's not something permanent and substantial anymore. It's not going to be as special or shocking.

That means they can also mutate someone for such a short temporary time to sell a toy, when it's a blatant move TO sell the toy. That's what worries me.

But I'm hoping this isn't where Ciro goes with the retro mutagen. The appearance of retro mutagen may make a few interesting story lines. It would be cool to see Donnie secondarily mutated into a monster down the road (like the 2k3 series), and the turtles have to find a way to make the retro mutagen and return their brother to normal over a period of episodes. And I think the Greg Cipes cameo scene in this episode may be foreshadowing what is to come: at least one of the turtles returns to their original state. It'd be cool for the Shredder to use this against them, and Donnie has to destroy everything that helped him make the retro mutagen.

Bottom Line: I don't want the retro mutagen to be around too long

I agree with you on a lot of this.

It'd be cool for the Shredder to use this against them, and Donnie has to destroy everything that helped him make the retro mutagen.

Well maybe not April since he needed her DNA to help make the retromutagen.

However this past episode had some loose references to the episode "Splinter No More" But as people who have seen that OT episode remember, the effects of the Retromutagen were temporary. So perhaps the fact Kirby was only able to be hit by a drop of the stuff and not the full vial like they had suspected may come back into play when the plot says it's convenient. Though it would have been more realistic if that single drop had only stabilized Kirby's mutation or reversed him at least a fraction of the way so he he's still a mutant, but they know the retromutagen was able to help somewhat.



There are some mutants Donnie should restore as a kindness.

April's Father was one of them. And innocent people like Rockwell and Sir Malachi are others.

Others should be restored simply because it would make them less threatening.

Such as Tigerclaw for example was mutated by the Kraang when he was a child. I mean yeah he's their enemy because he works for the Shredder. But I doubt he knows that the Shredder is associated with the Kraang albet loosely. Maybe being informed of that and being told that is is possible to restore his humanity will make that Mutant tiger turn sides. After all Donnie was the only turtle TC hasn't seen yet.

I doubt he'd be an ally of the Turtles, he's more likely to an anti-hero or a rogue villain regardless.

[raphmike]

that remind me when i see they try get retromutagen and too late same way tmnt second part movie did too try get mutagen but too late. i happy april
not become mutagen because she look great. 8/10

[Electric]

Originally Posted by Sewer Sirens Podcast

Okay, here's a problem I have with retro mutagen:

Nothing is permanent anymore.

Now that any mutant can be 'undone', to me at least, it makes the show a little less interesting. Whenever someone ends up being 'mutated', it's not something permanent and substantial anymore. It's not going to be as special or shocking.

That means they can also mutate someone for such a short temporary time to sell a toy, when it's a blatant move TO sell the toy. That's what worries me.

But I'm hoping this isn't where Ciro goes with the retro mutagen. The appearance of retro mutagen may make a few interesting story lines. It would be cool to see Donnie secondarily mutated into a monster down the road (like the 2k3 series), and the turtles have to find a way to make the retro mutagen and return their brother to normal over a period of episodes. And I think the Greg Cipes cameo scene in this episode may be foreshadowing what is to come: at least one of the turtles returns to their original state. It'd be cool for the Shredder to use this against them, and Donnie has to destroy everything that helped him make the retro mutagen.

Bottom Line: I don't want the retro mutagen to be around too long

I agree with you on some things. It does take away from the tragic aspect of the mutation. But then you have mutants like the squirrels and coach roach that weren't tragic at all.

I don't think the retro mutagen will be a common occurrence, like them walking around with guns filled with the stuff trying to in mutate everything. They made it very clear in this episode that it takes awhile to make the stuff, 10 canisters for 1 of retro. Plus it takes a lot of time, a couple months per canister. So it doesn't sound like they suddenly get an infinite supply of it, but just getting another batch every few episodes. We may lose a few mutants, but we could gain humans back. If Karai does mutate, i doubt she'll stay that way long, atleast I hope. My theory, and hope as well, is that if any other consistently shown mutant gets un mutated, it will be fish face, just because all he talks about now is wanting to be human, and with Bradford double mutation, I think something will happen with him. It would be cool to have his human form back, and that could increase tensions between rahZar and him.

And the retro mutagen opens up a lot of things for season 3.

[snake]

Sorry for being inactive lately, but this episode was great! Baxter was awesome and disgusting!


10/10

[Sewer Sirens Podcast]

Originally Posted by Metalwolf

But any Foot mutant that stole it ended up trying to use it on themselves, none of them even gave a moment's thought to dumping it on a Turtle. So if there is the very rare retro-mutagen produced, the Turtles will be more worried about the thieves taking it to use on themselves then over any possibility of it being used against them. They only have very limited quantities of the mutagen, plus it takes months to create just a small amount from 10 canisters. I doubt the Foot would hand over more of the stuff just to help their enemies, especially not with Shredder in control.

I'm more thinking in an eventual or future episode, not particularly only in this one. Maybe a Foot Bot, who doesn't need retro mutagen, ends up getting a sample and gives it to Shredder, who then comes up with the thought to use it on the turtles? Or Shredder himself gets it?

The one thing I do like, thought, as you said, that there are different motives for different people having the retro mutagen. I think was really cool. I really do like the idea of retro mutagen, my only problem with it is if it ends up getting used TOO much, making everything unsubstantial and temporary. Except, as you said, it takes awhile to make mutagen, so that does give me hope I am throwing out unnecessary and irrelevant complaints. It's just that I can see this going too far.

Originally Posted by victory_angel

Well maybe not April since he needed her DNA to help make the retromutagen.

Hahahaha, nevermind! Not everything!

Originally Posted by ElectricN

I don't think the retro mutagen will be a common occurrence, like them walking around with guns filled with the stuff trying to in mutate everything. They made it very clear in this episode that it takes awhile to make the stuff, 10 canisters for 1 of retro. Plus it takes a lot of time, a couple months per canister. So it doesn't sound like they suddenly get an infinite supply of it, but just getting another batch every few episodes. We may lose a few mutants, but we could gain humans back. If Karai does mutate, i doubt she'll stay that way long, atleast I hope. My theory, and hope as well, is that if any other consistently shown mutant gets un mutated, it will be fish face, just because all he talks about now is wanting to be human, and with Bradford double mutation, I think something will happen with him. It would be cool to have his human form back, and that could increase tensions between rahZar and him.

And the retro mutagen opens up a lot of things for season 3.

That's what I'm hoping too, as I said above in my comment to Metalwolf, that this will be used rarely. Seeing the retro mutagen come into play in future seasons would be sweet, as long as it's done right.

However, after all I said, I'm just voicing a concern when I may in fact have no reason at all TO voice that concern. I love this show, and I really like a lot of things they've done with it. I trust Ciro.

[victory_angel]

As cool as seeing Donnie getting double mutated would be. I don't know how logical it would be to create retromutagen or even have it conveniently created to restore him to normal.

One we don't know what effect it would have on a double dipped mutant. I.E. If Rahzar got hit by the retromutagen, would he turn back into Bradford, or would he become Dogpound again.


What made Good Gene's interesting is that the mutagen that caused Donatello's transformation was man made. When Donatello was first born as a mutant turtle the ooze that did it was Alien in origin. And then when Bishop created that fake Alien invasion, the when the turtles fought the fake Aliens causing them to blow up and unleash a manmade ooze which Donnie is later infected with

The effects were slow acting causing so as far as everyone knew Donnie was normal. The only down side being Donnie had a cold that had been lasting for months. So when the Transformation does finally take place it's a sudden and unexpected event.

If Donnie or any of the Turtles double mutates I'd like it to be a drawn out thing and not a "So & So is mutated again, we can fix that". So that way the absence of one of their own would have a stronger impact.

[FlawedCoil82]

Ehh....another so/so episode. Better than the last for sure, but still didn't give me any of what I want. Since only a drop was enough to turn April's dad back into a human, they could have "cured" virtually every mutant on the show with one vial (unless, as others suggested, the change isn't "permanent"). I was also surprised that Donnie offered to change April's dad first followed by Splinter, instead of offering to turn Mutagen Man back into Timothy.

[JH24]

Originally Posted by FlawedCoil82

Ehh....another so/so episode. Better than the last for sure, but still didn't give me any of what I want. Since only a drop was enough to turn April's dad back into a human, they could have "cured" virtually every mutant on the show with one vial (unless, as others suggested, the change isn't "permanent"). I was also surprised that Donnie offered to change April's dad first followed by Splinter, instead of offering to turn Mutagen Man back into Timothy.

I feel the same way. It was not a bad episode but for me personally not one of the best. Some plot points could have been written better. I found it strange they needed a syringe to inject the retro-mutagen, that they forgot that April was immune to Mutagen and that Shredder mutated Baxter for his failures, then still forced him to make another mutant in the end, and everyone seeming to forget about the huge vat of Mutagen in Baxter's lab.

===

As for Timothy, you make a good point. But April is their/his closest friend and they carry the blame and regret on their shoulders for Kirby's mutation, so it's understandable they want to help April and Kirby as one of the first.

As for Master Splinter, he's family and he's their father, it's natural for them to offer the retro-mutagen to him as well.

Timothy, in the end, is to blame for his own mutation. Donnie feels responsible and sadness about this and definitely sees him as a friend, but with Timothy being frozen his situation perhaps is "less urgent" and he has no awareness of his existence right now. The only point that can be made is that if he was cured now he could return to his parents sooner, he must be lost for months already.


I'm pretty sure that Timothy was the third person on Donnie's list (Or maybe the second as Splinter mentioned he still has his humanity, both Kirby and Timothy have/had lost their humanity) and he may have been cured next if the vial hadn't broke. Only comment I can make about this is that I wished the writers had Donnie acknowledge that Timothy needed to be cured as well, I found it odd he wasn't mentioned even once in an episode ike this.

[Jon_Talbain]

Originally Posted by JH24

I feel the same way. It was not a bad episode but for me personally not one of the best. Some plot points could have been written better. I found it strange they needed a syringe to inject the retro-mutagen, that they forgot that April was immune to Mutagen and that Shredder mutated Baxter for his failures, then still forced him to make another mutant in the end, and everyone seeming to forget about the huge vat of Mutagen in Baxter's lab.

===

As for Timothy, you make a good point. But April is their/his closest friend and they carry the blame and regret on their shoulders for Kirby's mutation, so it's understandable they want to help April and Kirby as one of the first.

As for Master Splinter, he's family and he's their father, it's natural for them to offer the retro-mutagen to him as well.

Timothy, in the end, is to blame for his own mutation. Donnie feels responsible and sadness about this and definitely sees him as a friend, but with Timothy being frozen his situation perhaps is "less urgent" and he has no awareness of his existence right now. The only point that can be made is that if he was cured now he could return to his parents sooner, he must be lost for months already.


I'm pretty sure that Timothy was the third person on Donnie's list (Or maybe the second as Splinter mentioned he still has his humanity, both Kirby and Timothy have/had lost their humanity) and he may have been cured next if the vial hadn't broke. Only comment I can make about this is that I wished the writers had Donnie acknowledge that Timothy needed to be cured as well, I found it odd he wasn't mentioned even once in an episode ike this.

Baxter should be furious with Shredder. I think anyone would be. Shredder mutated him because of his so called mutant failures, then mutates Baxter, only to need Baxter's help to create another mutant? That was beyond messed up.

Did they even show Timothy in this episode? It is very strange they didn't even mention him. Certain episodes may be written this way to prolong things, but it brings Don's and the other turtles' morality in question. Even if it was Timothy's fault, how could they leave him as a contained blob for longer than he has to be? It's like he isn't even thought of as a former human being.

And what happened to all the people walking around? For some episodes, they at least showed people screaming or being there. That adds a lot to the show. I think a lot of people would have noticed a huge, man fly.

[Metalwolf]

Originally Posted by Jon_Talbain

Baxter should be furious with Shredder. I think anyone would be. Shredder mutated him because of his so called mutant failures, then mutates Baxter, only to need Baxter's help to create another mutant? That was beyond messed up.

Did they even show Timothy in this episode? It is very strange they didn't even mention him. Certain episodes may be written this way to prolong things, but it brings Don's and the other turtles' morality in question. Even if it was Timothy's fault, how could they leave him as a contained blob for longer than he has to be? It's like he isn't even thought of as a former human being.

And what happened to all the people walking around? For some episodes, they at least showed people screaming or being there. That adds a lot to the show. I think a lot of people would have noticed a huge, man fly.

I was pleasently surprised that Baxter has still kept his mind to be able to work on the mutagen, I remember in the 80s show he ended up losing his mind or getting less intelligent. I wouldn't be surprised though if Baxter backstabs Shredder somehow in revenge, like making the next mutant not have a permanent mutation, or inducing the mutagen to rob it of it's intellectual capabilities. He knows the mutagen well enough, and the others wouldn't have any understanding of the mathematics or formulas he's scrawling on his blackboard.

Yes, I thought they would mention Timothy too. It was like he was last on their minds, even though he ended up with the worst mutation out of everybody. If I were them, I'd ask Splinter beforehand what he wanted. He might have said for them to help Timothy first since he had 15 years as a rat, and he could wait a bit more. Plus it would have prevented the second canister from being wasted since they could have simply dumped it on Timmy right away. He's just sitting there anyway, the show isn't using him much. Time to close his story arc.

P.S, Were you able to get the last PM I had sent to you yesterday? My computer was acting a bit wonky and once in a while stuff doesn't get sent.

[Jon_Talbain]

Originally Posted by Metalwolf

I was pleasently surprised that Baxter has still kept his mind to be able to work on the mutagen, I remember in the 80s show he ended up losing his mind or getting less intelligent. I wouldn't be surprised though if Baxter backstabs Shredder somehow in revenge, like making the next mutant not have a permanent mutation, or inducing the mutagen to rob it of it's intellectual capabilities. He knows the mutagen well enough, and the others wouldn't have any understanding of the mathematics or formulas he's scrawling on his blackboard.

Yes, I thought they would mention Timothy too. It was like he was last on their minds, even though he ended up with the worst mutation out of everybody. If I were them, I'd ask Splinter beforehand what he wanted. He might have said for them to help Timothy first since he had 15 years as a rat, and he could wait a bit more. Plus it would have prevented the second canister from being wasted since they could have simply dumped it on Timmy right away. He's just sitting there anyway, the show isn't using him much. Time to close his story arc.

P.S, Were you able to get the last PM I had sent to you yesterday? My computer was acting a bit wonky and once in a while stuff doesn't get sent.

I am surprised Baxter has any humanity at all, much less his intelligence. It was so dramatic with the slow motion explosion of the first vial of mutagen. Then all of them kept going off as if he was being shot with a machine gun. Also, the title of the episode is painfully true. Almost every mutation we have seen so far has someone watching or being their while the mutation is taking place. But Shredder and Rahzar just left Baxter all alone while he mutated. And after the life Baxter has had, he probably won't be trusting anyone unless it is something drastic to change his mind.

Shredder didn't even try out the mutants Baxter made. How does Shredder know they are failures just because of how they look? They might have really been a threat if given the chance to prove themselves. And apparently Shredder must have thought Baxter had some ability, since he still dragged him back at the end of the episode. And you are right about Splinter. He has been in that form for over a decade. Timothy is just a tragic wanna-be hero and teenager. They really should have helped him out already.

What happened to the Squirrelanoids? And Snakeweed and the others? The turtles haven't mentioned much of anyone lately. Why did Raph not try to steal the retro-mutagen in desperation to turn Slash back into Spike? Why has Don never cared about Spyroach? Don had obviously bonded with the roach before the mutation. Why didn't Mikey turn Ice Cream Kitty back into a normal cat? Nick could have easily given more depth and plots to some of these storylines. And I believe I did get the PM, I will check it now.

[blindturtle02]

Good points there. It would have been interesting to at least hear Raph mentioning demutating Slash eventually, as well as Don mentioning Timothy. When these characters aren't in an episode, it's like they don't even exist at all. I thought we'd see Karai a little. So I'm confused. Is she still with the Foot, or did she venture out on her own at the end of Manhattan Project? If she's still with the Foot, she probably uh went to hang out at the noodle shop in Lonely Mutation. Yeah, that's it. Murakami's teaching her braille or something. Either that, or Shredder sent her to her room for a really really long time due to disobeying him during his absence. Wonder what she's going to think of Baxter when she sees him. Nobody's going to be able to enjoy a meal with that guy around now. He's going to be such a buzzkill-- no pun intended, when it comes to the appetites of folks in Shredder's lair.

[Jon_Talbain]

Originally Posted by blindturtle02

Good points there. It would have been interesting to at least hear Raph mentioning demutating Slash eventually, as well as Don mentioning Timothy. When these characters aren't in an episode, it's like they don't even exist at all. I thought we'd see Karai a little. So I'm confused. Is she still with the Foot, or did she venture out on her own at the end of Manhattan Project? If she's still with the Foot, she probably uh went to hang out at the noodle shop in Lonely Mutation. Yeah, that's it. Murakami's teaching her braille or something. Either that, or Shredder sent her to her room for a really really long time due to disobeying him during his absence. Wonder what she's going to think of Baxter when she sees him. Nobody's going to be able to enjoy a meal with that guy around now. He's going to be such a buzzkill-- no pun intended, when it comes to the appetites of folks in Shredder's lair.

Right! It is like the characters that aren't being seen just don't exist. There should be sightings, a mention of them or something. Don just kept on stressing that he would help Timothy and Kirby. Now that he makes a cure, Timothy isn't even mentioned. Ugh.

I do hope they show Karai and Fishface's reaction to seeing Baxter. I was eating while watching the episode, and regret it.

[Powder]

One of the best episodes to date, by far!

[rickwj324]

Originally Posted by Powder

One of the best episodes to date, by far!

I just watched it and said the exact same thing!! Truly a well-done episode.

[Metalwolf]

Originally Posted by Jon_Talbain

Right! It is like the characters that aren't being seen just don't exist. There should be sightings, a mention of them or something. Don just kept on stressing that he would help Timothy and Kirby. Now that he makes a cure, Timothy isn't even mentioned. Ugh.

I do hope they show Karai and Fishface's reaction to seeing Baxter. I was eating while watching the episode, and regret it.

I sent you a PM, let me know if it it is it too long. I'm tring not to write book length stuff, but it can be hard not to. If it is long, I'll try to cut it down next time

But I agree. Although on Amazon where you can buy the Nick TMNT episodes, there is a free 'informational' that you can watch that mentions what to do and what not to do if you come across any strange canisters. I haven't watched it yet, but it does show that people are noticing stuff and that it is getting on the news. Plus I bet that Timmy and Martin are on the Missing Person's list too.

@blindturtle02

Oh, I wish I could actually be there to watch their faces as Baxter projectile pukes all over his food. Mainly because I would be laughing my butt off, and I'd get to make really bad jokes like the famous "Gee, he must be on a 'see food' diet" and the bad 'nature program narrator' impression: "Now we see the fly in his natural habitat..."

I know, I'm weird.

[BubblyShell22]

I agree with BT and Jon in that one of the flaws of this show is acting like a character doesn't exist until the plot calls for them. Yeah, Tim's there, but it's like he didn't exist for them since they never mentioned him. I'm sure he'll crop up again when the plot calls for it because that's the way this show rolls.