Official Episode Discussion S2 #22 "Vengeance is Mine"

[Mutant Ninja Anole]

Never commented on a Nick toons thread before but:

Karai's form is kindof fascinating, and I like it, not sure about the snake hands. It's defintely more on the "Abomination against nature" type of mutant and less "cute animal person" some might have hoped. In that case, I think there's a good chance she gets cured, perhaps by an "Enemy Mine" between the Splinter and Shredder.

With regards to Shredder, I wouldn't call his blaming of Splinter bad writing, it's classic villainous cognitive dissonance and it's part of some of the greatest fictional villain ever IMHO. Of note for geeks like us: Dukat from Deep Space Nine and Demona from Gargoyles. Demona's character arc basically revolved around blaming other people for the results of her own increasingly destructive actions. At one point she actually says "What have I...what have THEY done?" Part of what makes a villain a villain is an unwillingness to see what's wrong about their actions.

Shredder blames Splinter because the truth is impossible for him to process.

[JTH]

Originally Posted by Midnight Mutant

I can't help but wonder if the retro mutagen that Donnie made before will work on Karai since her mutation included an extra unknown chemical? o_o

I believe they can easily work around that.

Simply make it where they need a sample of Karai's venom for her retro-mutagen, just like they "thought" using April's DNA would restore her father to a human, only to find out it was the key to the retro-mutagen altogether.

[kelligrafie]

Originally Posted by jth

I believe they can easily work around that.

Simply make it where they need a sample of Karai's venom for her retro-mutagen, just like they "thought" using April's DNA would restore her father to a human, only to find out it was the key to the retro-mutagen altogether.

They'll probably need a venom sample to cure Raph's eyes/blindness because it's obvious that's where we're going with him.

I wonder if Donnie will become a target since he's made retro mutagen before

It seems likely that another Donatello centric episode is coming with a dire need for retro-mutagen

I don't know if this will happen but I hope that's the case. It'll be nice to have a Donnie episode that doesn't feature April.

[Metalwolf]

Originally Posted by victory_angel

That or Shredder learns Donnie is capable of making Retro-Mutagen. That way Shredder not only as a reliable (or at least more reliable then Stockman) means of creating the retro-mutagen but also a test subject.

True, but if he demutates Donnie he won't learn how it's created (so he could make more) or that 'extra ingredient' he needs to make it work. Otherwise he'll be like Donnie without it, always getting close but never quite getting there.

Plus I think he'd use one of his henchmen as a test subject first before having Donnie get demutated, since Donnie's knowledge is way too valuable to lose at this point. He'd also risk a revolt from his henchmen, since most (save for Tigerclaw) badly want to be human again and him demutating the retromutagen's creator, just might be the one thing that breaks their loyalty. I don't think Shredder wants to risk that just yet, at least not right away.

[IndigoErth]

Originally Posted by Midnight Mutant

I kind of wonder if she will go back to the lair or if she will go for shredder.

With as animalistic as it seemed to make her, mentally speaking, imo I'm not even sure she's going to be trustworthy until they are hopefully able to help her. :\ And I was just starting to like her a bit... Should add an interesting element though for a bit.

Curious how she acts now in her human form... really feel there could be more deception added in there. Gains your trust as a human, snaps into snake mode and kills you. Yikes. lol

[Zulithe]

I have my doubts that she will be retromutated.

Why else would they make it so she can change from human form to snake form? They want to have the best of both worlds.

[victory_angel]

Originally Posted by Metalwolf

True, but if he demutates Donnie he won't learn how it's created (so he could make more) or that 'extra ingredient' he needs to make it work. Otherwise he'll be like Donnie without it, always getting close but never quite getting there.

Plus I think he'd use one of his henchmen as a test subject first before having Donnie get demutated, since Donnie's knowledge is way too valuable to lose at this point. He'd also risk a revolt from his henchmen, since most (save for Tigerclaw) badly want to be human again and him demutating the retromutagen's creator, just might be the one thing that breaks their loyalty. I don't think Shredder wants to risk that just yet, at least not right away.

Well knowing Donnie, he would probably keep the fact that he would need April's DNA for the retro mutagen. Because Stockman sort of knows April is immune to Mutagen, but only the Turtles know she's part Kraang so as far as Stockman knows it could have been just a fluke.

Also the Shredder would have someone like Tiger Claw keep a very close eye on Donnie, so refusal would be a very bad option.

Plus the Shredder is likely banking on the other Turtles and Splinter to come to Donnie's rescue so he would mostly threaten to test it on Donatello as a way of breaking Splinter, but in reality he would use it to turn Splinter human.

[Vicky82]

Just noticed something

Did anyone find it disturbing, that when Karai was hanging above the mutagen, she was in a metal casket.

[IndigoErth]

Originally Posted by Vicky82

Just noticed something

Did anyone find it disturbing, that when Karai was hanging above the mutagen, she was in a metal casket.

Yes! I commented that exact thing to myself when I saw it, that it looked like a casket. o.O

[oldmanwinters]

Can anybody get me a screencap of the weapon listings that Donatello pulled up on the Shellraiser panel? Some of those looked potentially hilarious but I didn't get a long look at them.

[Ursalink]

I'm really sad about what happened, but I would lie if I say I wasn't expecting something like this. Instead of instantly becoming an ally for the Turtles or stay with Shredder, becoming a "loose tip". I really wish there is some hope for Karai. I would really love to slash Shredder... Wolverine's style!!

I believe that, for the time being, Karai's going to be like Leatherhead. That means, she's a good character, but she can't control her "animal impulses"; just like Leatherhead can't control his reptilian rage. I suppose she will be cured at some point, as I believe the chemical mixed with the serpent DNA is what made possible for Karai to change forms between mutant and human. I know we saw her with snake's eyes and fangs, but maybe she's learning to control the shapeshifting. Maybe eventually, she will manage to shapeshift completely. I just want to have hope.

[Powder]

This was a REALLY good episode but I was so certain that Karai was gonna be Venus that I set myself up to be disappointed. Not a fan of the whole Snake thing. A mutation is fine, but this particular one doesn't really appeal to me. I hope it's resolved quickly. I also hope she's referred to as Scaletail at some point. Her moment with Splinter almost brought a tear to my eye, I was so happy for the family reunion. So sad how things turned out. Loved the flashback, should have had more of that. & in the moment when Snakarai spit venom at Raph's eye, my thought was "OMG YES THEY'RE GONNA GIVE HIM AN EYE PATCH LIKE ALL THE COMIC RAPHAELS", but alas, that was not the case.

[Allio]

Originally Posted by Ninjinister

Why did you spell that with an exclamation point?

to make you ask questions

[BabyTurtles]

this episode was amazing....my only gripe is.....if your going to have Mikey get cut...then at least show some sort of cut XD and it was just his arm, why is it hard for him to walk when his arm was the part that was injured???

but other than that~

YES! I'm just glad Shredder cared >

also...dangit I'm finally used to Leo's new voice and it's gonna change again XD

[Garfield]

Originally Posted by NinjaPug

Shredder blaming Splinter for Karai mutating was pretty stupid too. It's just lazy writing.

Shredder is not a lucid character. He is clearly out of touch with reality. Remember the episode in the past when The Kraang invaded the city, and Shredder first came in contact with post mutated Splinter and it didn't phase him. He was so obsessed with seeking revenge that he didn't care that his former human rival was now a mutant rat man. Or that the city was being invaded by alien squid/brain creatures from another dimension.

Remember when he got back from his trip and he saw Bradford in his new (Rahzar) transformation for the first time and his first reply was "You look terrible Bradford." like Bradford just had a really bad hair cut or got his clothes all muddy or something and not like he went from being a beefed up dog man to a boney wolf man.

Saki just isn't all there. He's really screwed up. It makes perfect sense that he'd blame Splinter because his narcissism is so grand that he's irrational.

[MartiusR]

Originally Posted by oldmanwinters

Can anybody get me a screencap of the weapon listings that Donatello pulled up on the Shellraiser panel? Some of those looked potentially hilarious but I didn't get a long look at them.

Sure, here it is:

Spoiler:

[victory_angel]

The back story was interesting and it kinda put things into perspective for the Shredder's actions.

The Foot-clan and Hamato Clan were rivals and one day the Hamato Clan destroyed the Foot Clan. Hamato Yoshi's father found infant Oroku Saki and took pity on him, so he brought him to his clan so both Hamato Yoshi and Oroku Saki were raised together and thought of themselves as brothers.

Unfortunately their companionship changed when he met Teng Shen and learned that Hamato Yoshi was her chosen lover. And some time around this point, Oroku Saki also learned his adoptive family was responsible for his families murder. So he lashes out at Hamato Yoshi and accidentally kills Teng Shen. Then when he burns down the house and possibly kills the rest of the Hamato Clan (with the exception of Yoshi) he takes Miwa and raises her as part of the Foot clan. Partially as a tool for vengeance, but also as means of doing the same thing that Yoshi's family had done to him.

[Shreddhead]

Poop T.N.T...... I want that feature on the toyline

[TurFlytle]

Originally Posted by Raph's Girl

And now Karai/Miwa is Hakuja no Myojin, the Japanese white serpent god.

http://www.sarudama.com/japanese_fol...pent_god.shtml

That's exactly what I thought when she shapeshifted!

[oldmanwinters]

Originally Posted by MartiusR

Sure, here it is:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

http://i.imgur.com/bKWPka5.jpg

Hoo, that's amazing! Thanks so much!