Official Episode Discussion S2 #22 "Vengeance is Mine"

[pennydreadful]

Just watched it - OH MY FREAKING GOD, MY FEELS!!!



Seriously, best episode of the season (so far)!!! I love that Shredder had sadface over Karai being mad at him, and he was so devastated about the mutation! And that Splinter/Karai hug, and the look on Splinter's face when he saw what had happened to Karai...

Seriously, I feel like I need to smoke a post-coital cigarette after watching this thing! It was incredible!

Ok, now I'm gonna go and read back through the thread to see what everyone else though - I just had to fangirl all over the place as soon as I finished watching.

[MartiusR]

Originally Posted by ElectricN

Love that she cAn be human still, just wonder how she's going to use it. Not of fan of her snake voice though, barely recognizable as her human voice.

I'm betting that she'll use this in future to confuse both sides (and maybe we'll see the scene, where she'll change forms under influence of some emotions, maybe meeting the Splinter? After all, it seems that she's for now "Kirby-style" mutant, without sanity and only with some glimpses in memory, and I expect that Splinter will influence on her in quite similar way as April on Wingnut)... And generally, after watching this ep I presume, that she'll generally use this ability in practical way (during fight she'll take the snake-form, but moving through the city will be much easier with nimble "human-form").

Originally Posted by ElectricN

I'm glad that Mikey mentioned retro mutagen, because to me, that's their way of introducing the idea of her demutatinh. I know it might be awhile, but I took this as it will happen eventually.

Yeah, have hope for it too. Just can't imagine her to be left in this state permanently By the way - I'm wondering if there will be other final of this case than simple de-mutating. I wouldn't be surprised, if it would worked only partially(after all, it's not the "simple" mutation with normal mutagen) - for example she will be sane back, but still will have this "shaping-change" ability (will she be able to use it intentionally or not - that's a debatable thing), and temporaly losing the control (+ Splinter teaching her about "taming her inner beast" ). It's only my speculation though, time will tell how much accurate.

[pennydreadful]

Originally Posted by Retro-Specs

One theory we had - and sorry if this has mentioned already - but that mutagen vat must be the same one April was dropped into. Perhaps her DNA contaminated the vat, adding the ability for a mutant to demutate themselves partially at will (I have a hard time seeing Baxter's spilled chemical being the sole cause of Karai's extra ability)

Good thought, Retro - myself, I hadn't even thought of that. Maybe April will end up being the key to de-mutating Karai?

Originally Posted by Mutant Ninja Anole

Probably already been said, but I can't believe I forgot to comment on the parallels, with Shredder accidentally killing Tang Shen trying to get to Yoshi, then mutating his daughter trying to get to him again. And both times he shifts the blame.

There's also an underlying them in which vengeance poisons everything. Karai stupidly goes after Shredder alone in search of revenge, Shredder attempts to take revenge and ends up mutating Karai, then ironically swears vengeance for her.

If there's a conflict between the turtles and Karai when they meet, then it will be either because she has lost her mind or is lost in a quest for revenge against the Shredder.

A possible thought: Perhaps the two sides become a Jekell and Hyde personality and the more she lets her rage against Saki dominate her, the more she loses the human side. Just a thought.

Absolutely - I loved the coming-full-circle theme of this episode, and it absolutely kicked ass seeing some more of Saki and Yoshi's back story.

Originally Posted by ssjup81

I wish they would've explained why Yoshi came to New York. It's not like he was fleeing like in the other incarnations, and I'm under the impression he wasn't hanging around the sewers either prior to his mutation.

Maybe we'll find out more about why he came to New York in future episodes? They've kind of been dropping little bits of info on us through flashbacks throughout the seasons, so far... I'm sure they've got some more goodies stored up for us.

Originally Posted by ElectricN

Don't know if it's been discussed, but in Karai and shredders fight scene, I think the best moment was when she threw shuriken at him. When he caught one, he saw it wasn't her usual ones, and had the hamato symbol on it, and it seemed to really upset him, since he knew she was officially on the other side.

In fact, shredder caring for her was probably the best part of the episode. Having both him and splinter call out for her when she mutated, promising revenge for her, still referring to her as daughter. It made everything so much more dramatic and I think is why this episode had such an impact on viewers.

Agreed, I love that they've given Shredder this added dimension to his character - it really humanizes him to me, and puts me in a position I never thought I'd ever be in... feeling sorry for the Shredder!

Seriously, this episode was wonderful. I mean, I've gone from disliking Karai the first time I watched the series to having her be one of my top favourite characters in the show. It was fantastic to see her getting an episode where we got to know her better - seeing her with the guys and Splinter was great... and now I have to wait ages to find out what happens to her!



Poor Karai... where is she going to live? How is she going to survive as a feral snake-girl? I have this awful image of her sleeping in some cold, damp drainpipe, eating rats!!!

[ssjup81]

Originally Posted by Retro-Specs

One theory we had - and sorry if this has mentioned already - but that mutagen vat must be the same one April was dropped into. Perhaps her DNA contaminated the vat, adding the ability for a mutant to demutate themselves partially at will (I have a hard time seeing Baxter's spilled chemical being the sole cause of Karai's extra ability)

Dogpound contaminated it too, though.

[Wildcat]

Great episode but it was really stupid for Karai to go after Shredder herself...JUST AFTER they finished rescuing her. They narrowly escaped TigerClaw. Seemed like a rushed scenario.

Loved Snake-Karai though. My favorite secondary mutant in this series.

[drgon78]

Still think a cat mutation would have been better, I mean Splinter is afraid of cats not snakes. Well at least her arms shouldn't have been snakes, it looks to much like King Hiss from He-man.

[pennydreadful]

Shredder probably figured that the cold-blooded element from a snake would be more potentially deadly and ruthlessly predatory than a mammalian mutation like a cat... in terms of killing any emotions that the Turtles would've had towards Splinter.

I mean, snakes don't have affection towards parents (as far as I know!), whereas cats are affectionate creatures. Could've been weird if they'd mutated into a bunch of kittens and started purring at Splinter!

[NitpickingMask]

While I refuse to take dissing of snakes aka the most beautiful type of animals in animal kingdom, I'd have to ask that since when the Splinter has been afraid of cats?

Also, technically speaking Shredder might as well have mutated them into owls. I think he chose snakes because turtles are reptiles or something.*shrugs*

Also, cats are ruthless cute little dastards as well, my cat kills rodents without even wanting to eat them.

[Kanon]

It was for me an okay episode.
(should have been a double-episode)

Good points:
- Splinter/Karai hug
- mikeys shadow skills
- Leos trubbled face when he is near Karai
- All turtles roll around

Bad things:
- I don´t like Karais mutation design
- the iron casquet
- too much story in only around 20min

[Foombamaroom]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

I don't like the idea of Karai being a mutant, but seeing her change back into human form at the end of the episode makes me think this has potential.

At least it won't be a repeat of Kirby-bat, which looking back...was a pretty dumb idea and went nowhere.

I agree with you completely. Maybe the producers will have Karai as a shapeshifter the whole show but she learns to control it. I wouldn't mind seeing that. The idea of Karai mutating is horrifying, but the execution was amazing. And the Kirby Bat idea was a waste of story and got boring because they didn't do anything with it.

[Foombamaroom]

Am I the only one who thinks that her snake voice sounds like Asajj Ventress from The Clone Wars???

Also, I think they just showed the fangs and the eyes to symbolize she's still a mutant. I doubt she'll have them whenever she transforms back.

I loved the scene when Karai and Shredder are fighting and she throws shuriken, and Shredder sees the Hamato symbol and just flips out.

[Foombamaroom]

The orange stuff that Baxter put in the mutagen looks EXACTLY like retromutagen.

[BubblyShell22]

Originally Posted by drgon78

Still think a cat mutation would have been better, I mean Splinter is afraid of cats not snakes. Well at least her arms shouldn't have been snakes, it looks to much like King Hiss from He-man.

Yes, but Shredder explained that snakes are a rat's natural enemy and his true intention was to have the Turtles mutate into snakes and turn on Splinter, thus leaving him broken before killing him and the Turtles. It was definitely a ruthless plan, but it backfired on him and he soon realized it after Karai got mutated.

As for who will help the Turtles when they flee the city, I have a feeling Kirby will be instrumental in getting them out safely.

[oldmanwinters]

Originally Posted by pennydreadful

Could've been weird if they'd mutated into a bunch of kittens and started purring at Splinter!

Missed opportunity, I guess.

[madyankees]

This show is starting to have way too many mutants

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by madyankees

This show is starting to have way too many mutants

It's been that way since the start of Season 2.

It's getting worse now because there are hardly any humans left.

[Shark_Blade]

Who cares about humans?

The show is about teenage MUTANTs, so of course there will be other mutants. Humans are normally boring anyway.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by Shark_Blade

Who cares about humans?

The show is about teenage MUTANTs, so of course there will be other mutants. Humans are normally boring anyway.

Yet no precious incarnation outside of Archie was ever overloaded with mutants like this.

[VaughnMichael]

Everyone has pretty much said everything so I'll say I really loved this episode.
I really liked the back story given and how it showed Teng Shen being killed.
I was a bit surprised that went down on Nickelodeon.
I like Karai Mutation enough but I agree with those that says the snake hands are a bit much.
It's funny to me that there are an over abundance of mutants on this show since Peter Laird was so Anti-Mutant in the 2k3 series.
Maybe the next series will have a healthy balance.
Anyway this was a great way to take a little break, hell it would have been a great season ending.

[RandomtasticFantasy]

Spoiler:

-I am not surprised at all that Kairi mutated. Didn't see it being a snake coming. I hate it resorts to her sorta still being a villain though: I really wanted this to signify a next chapter of sorts in her life. Now it's more waiting for her to join the good guys, with the Kirby-Bat arc (though more interesting) possibly thrown in (i.e., them trying to demutate her.). Honestly, I hope she stays mutated and just learns to control it/gets her mind straight: the possibilities are great for her as a mutant. Though admittedly, I hope they stop mutating all the humans. I kinda like the idea of at least one or two normals hanging around and actually being helpful.
-Seeing Kairi interact with the family and hug Splinter made the ending so much sadder. I wanted to hug Spinter so much.
-Shredder needs a box of tissue, a wiffle bat, and one seriously dedicated psychiatrist. Dude has Eric Cartman mental gymnastics levels of 'never-my-fault' syndrome. I love that he has major flaws like this, but it annoys me how crazy one tract minded hate filled fixated he is on Yoshi. In that 'love to be annoyed' way though.
-Donnie better give Leo some pointers, cause Leo may be getting some serious cold shoulder from Splinter after all this. I fell so sorry for him seriously: he was only trying to do what he thought right. All the blame shouldn't be put on him. Wonder if Shredder will target him since he loves shouldering blame on anyone but himself.
-Great impact and emotion in the amount was given but it did feel a tad rushed at the end. Love the scene when she mutated: knew it was coming (Why hang her there, idiot!) but done well where I felt sad/bad. Plus seeing Shredder care was...nice. I didn't think he would and would have done it just to spite Splinter. I'll gladly eat that crow: he at least is decent enough to care about a girl he raised, no matter the reason. Or his unrealistic expectations upon her learning the truth. (It's like he forgot what he did once HE learned the truth about himself and his clan. I'm adding selective amnesia to his on growing list of issues.)
-Keep up the great work of maturing Mikey. Love it.
-Before it went Shen levels of wrong, I liked Shredder's plan. Might have even been interesting for Leo snake for a few episodes. Could have seen Kairi bonding with her family and the others for a while trying to save Leo and deal with her own need for revenge blowing up in her face and costing someone else that she cared about. Like Saki. Oh well. Snakairi works too, lol.

Overall, I liked it. Finding out I have to wait to see what happens next is torture. Fall can't get here soon enough.