Do you think April is a Mary-Sue?

[pennydreadful]

Well as I've said several times that I feel April is a Mary Sue, I guess it behooves me to weigh in here. Now, after reading everyone else's thoughts on the matter, it's entirely possible that I'm being a bit harsh; so these are just my opinions only and I'm definitely not saying that I'm right and everyone else is wrong.

To me, April really began coming off as a Sue - or at least Sue-ish - once we hit Season 2. The reason I feel that way is that we never see her experiencing any negative consequences or real problems. She's smart, attractive, we certainly don't get the impression that she's a loner at school. I feel like for most of this season, the vast majority of her interactions have been with either the two guys who're crushing on her (Donnie and Casey), or with Splinter who seems to view her as a surrogate daughter and trains her as a kunoichi. The only exception to this is Irma, who she keeps ditching and allowing Casey to insult at every turn.

In the first season, we had April showing Mikey how to surf the web, we had Leo coming to her to talk about meeting Karai. In Season 2, we haven't had those kind of moments.

That, combined with the continuing Kraang plot, finding out that she's a mutant with psychic powers - and absolutely zero negative consequences because of that, are really giving me a Special Snowflake Syndrome vibe.

We're not seeing her suffering from headaches or hallucinations as a result of her psychic powers. She's not a social pariah. Arguably the only problems that she consistently experiences are:

1) her father disappearing and mutating, however we never see any real emotional devastation in regards to this, let alone problems with having to explain what happened to him, how she explains this to her aunt, problems with the police over his repeated disappearances, problems with her aunt/hiding secrets from her aunt, her crying at night because she misses her dad, etc etc; and

2) the Kraang constantly trying to kidnap her, but as she's always rescued by the Turtles anyway, this doesn't feel like a negative consequence so much as a plot device.

Once her old man does get demutated, everything's back to normal. He doesn't freak out and forbid her to see the Turtles anymore. She doesn't appear to be suffering under the weight of hiding the Turtles' secret. Furthermore, she doesn't really seem to have any major flaws or weaknesses.

Anyway, those're just my thoughts - I hope I haven't upset anybody; as I said, it's solely my interpretation of what we've seen and is by no means the Universal Truth of the character.

By the technical definition of the term, she doesn't fill the criteria for being a true Sue - however I do feel that she seems to have a lot of perks and not many downsides.

Once again, hope this didn't make anybody mad as that's not my intent!

[Slade]

Originally Posted by Konchadunga

Batman certainly can seem a bit too powerful when put on equal terms with metahumans, but it's worth noting he's the version of a superhero many fans like the best. Not that many people actually like Superman these days, and Wonder Woman's popularity has waned in a world where the concept of a female superhero is no longer seen as an exciting feminist milestone. Batman also has the benefit of loads of backstory to some degree explaining why he has what he has.

Yeah, ok..

[ssjup81]

Originally Posted by Candy Kappa

There is nothing wrong with a Mary Sue character as long as the character is written well.

Batman is one of the biggest Mary Sue characters out there.

He's Batman because of his flaws, thinking about it. He has many issues. Check out the comics after Jason Todd was killed out.

Anyway, I don't feel April is a Mary Sue character. She's not a flawless character, nor is she viewed favorably by everyone, meaning the other characters. A Mary Sue/Gary Stu is a perfect character. April isn't. If other characters can use or say something negative about said character then that character isn't perfect. How did Leo put it...she's stubborn.

Yeah she has the Kraang thing going on, but that feels more like a plot convenience. She is learning how to fight, but even Splinter said at one point that she's still learning and we see that April has stubbornly joined them to fight, despite being a novice. Her fight against Karai had April losing badly. She only won because of luck, not skill.

So yeah...not a Mary Sue in my book. An example of one is probably Lola from Hey Arnold. She could say or do no wrong and the characters around her treated her in that fashion...minus Helga since she had a crush on Arnold and he liked Lola.

[Luckyday]

It not that April is a mary sue is just she is a main character who treated like a side character and that's frustrating.

Now this would be fine but when you tell us that "she's the fifth ninja turtle" without a whole lot of characterization, it leave an impression of a mary sue that is told in narration that she good and skilled. It just as same as telling rather then showing.

If you want a stronger character rather then a stronger fighter then give her a conflict that she has to resolve herself or issues that she has deal with on the daily bases like Leo trying to the right thing and learning how to grow up to be a better leader, Raph learning to control his temper, Mikey on trying to make friends and being taken seriously, and Donnie's when he trying make use of his knowledge to better himself.

[plastroncafe]

Batman gets a pass because he's a dude.
Any female character given Batman's traits, situation, and backstory would be listed as a Sue in a New York Minute.

[ssjup81]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

Batman gets a pass because he's a dude.
Any female character given Batman's traits, situation, and backstory would be listed as a Sue in a New York Minute.

Bruce isn't a perfect character though, so the "Gary Stu" label wouldn't fit. He has too many issues that he's still overcoming.

He does seem to be highly intelligent and have great detective and fighting skills, but he's not written as a perfect character, imo...comic wise...

[Luckyday]

Batman's issue was that he was emotionally distant. He acted social for his play boy persona but when it comes to like a justice league christmas party, he would be one of those guys that would rather stay at home rather then going out.

And he might be crazy.

[Konchadunga]

He's also selfless to a fault at times. Batman wins battles against metahumans, which some people indeed think he shouldn't be able to win, but as talented and equipped as he is, he doesn't ever win his war on crime. He won't kill people, so his enemies keep coming back, and he (barring spin-offs) won't quit fighting the good fight. A Mary Sue is a character who constantly gets his or her way without much perceivable effort or growth. Batman is admired by many because he could be that sort of person, but he chooses not to be.

[TurtleTitan97]

Originally Posted by Konchadunga

He's also selfless to a fault at times. Batman wins battles against metahumans, which some people indeed think he shouldn't be able to win, but as talented and equipped as he is, he doesn't ever win his war on crime. He won't kill people, so his enemies keep coming back, and he (barring spin-offs) won't quit fighting the good fight. A Mary Sue is a character who constantly gets his or her way without much perceivable effort or growth. Batman is admired by many because he could be that sort of person, but he chooses not to be.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Refractive Reflections]

Well I speculated back in February that she was developing some Mary Sue traits (not a full-fledged Mary Sue), and it's more or less stayed the same since the series hasn't focused as much on Nick April since "The Kraang Conspiracy".

[Candy Kappa]

The thing with Batman, is that the knows every singe known martial art, have a extreme record of skillsets, not only a master detective, but also a near meta-human athlete, high degrees in various scientific fields. Rich and handsome with a dark and mysterious past, brooding loner but works with teams. Able to fight drug addiction within a month while growing a full beard.

And to top it all a off, photographic memory.

[Mutant Ninja Anole]

So far what I've learned from this thread is that Mary Sues are awesome people we should all aspire to be like

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by Candy Kappa

The thing with Batman, is that the knows every singe known martial art, have a extreme record of skillsets, not only a master detective, but also a near meta-human athlete, high degrees in various scientific fields. Rich and handsome with a dark and mysterious past, brooding loner but works with teams. Able to fight drug addiction within a month while growing a full beard.

And to top it all a off, photographic memory.

^^^
This.

Let's not forget that he completely healed from having his spine broken.
Look, I love Bats as much as the next fanboy, but...that's all stretching the disbelief a bit much.

[Konchadunga]

The fact is, Batman is a product of a different era; one that apparently liked its superheroes full of excessive power. Superman had already debuted, and Wonder Woman wasn't far off, but at the time, superheroes were a new concept, and nobody knew if the idea would catch on to the extent that there would someday be too many to remember, so any given hero was given a whole range of powers. Batman is excessively trained and well-equipped by human standards, just so he's able to keep up with the metahumans. Whether they go too far in that varies, but it certainly makes sense for what they're trying to do, and if you're wondering if it makes sense, well, do his metahuman allies and enemies really make sense? No. The point is for a character not to be so gifted that the story has no suspense.

It's one of the key reasons I also don't call 2012 April a Mary-Sue. Yes; she has the gift of a sixth sense, but its combat functions are, in fact, pretty limited so far. She's good at dodging and using a sharp fan, but she's still a skinny girl who doesn't really have the power to knock out the many superpowered baddies in the show. She keeps up more than anything else. I grant the mindblast she used on the Kraang was pushing it, but that occurred only after they tortured her with the partial goal of unlocking her powers, which implies she can't just do that at will.

[turtle1237]

Originally Posted by TurtleTitan97

Couldn't have said it better myself.

http://37.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7...douao1_500.gif

Man I loved that cartoon. My all time favorite show. I am a turtles fan, but I like Batman even more.

[turtle1237]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

^^^
This.

Let's not forget that he completely healed from having his spine broken.
Look, I love Bats as much as the next fanboy, but...that's all stretching the disbelief a bit much.

That did take a while, before Batman's return, we had Bane's rein and his fall, the new Batman going too far, and Bruce trying to walk again, and saving one of his friends being kidnapped in a wheel chair.

I think all that took a span of a year comic wise for that recover, and determined how bad it was, It is possible.

[Mr._Mutant_Man]

Originally Posted by Candy Kappa

Batman is one of the biggest Mary Sue characters out there.

No he's not. A Mary Sue is a character that a writer comes up with as wish fulfillment to put themselves into the story. Now in a way, everyone wishes they were Batman, but I don't think that counts.

[ssjup81]

Originally Posted by Mr._Mutant_Man

No he's not. A Mary Sue is a character that a writer comes up with as wish fulfillment to put themselves into the story. Now in a way, everyone wishes they were Batman, but I don't think that counts.

Adding on, the character is usually portrayed as being perfect in every way and well-received by the characters around them. It's like the character could push someone off of a building, but it's ok because all of the characters will justify the action or overlook it because they love the character.

The only "Mary Sue" character that comes to mind for me is still Lola from Hey Arnold. She could say or do no wrong, she was "ever so" perfect at all she did, practically, she was considered pretty and charming, and every single solitary character liked her (I mean in a general sense), minus Helga who was jealous if her being so perfect and well-liked by those around her, including her crush.

[victory_angel]

Also the villians forget their original motives and drop everything to get the mary-sue character because he wants (A. The Mary-Sue as their queen/love interest, B. The Mary-sues Power, C. The Mary-Sue on his team)

The only villain's that want April are the Kraang because her DNA can be used to refine the mutagen for some unexplained reason aside from the fact that she has Kraang DNA.

Shredder doesn't give two bits about April, the only time he has it was because he felt she could be someone to use as bait for the Turtles and Splinter. And the only reason he would want to kill her is for that same reason. Otherwise she is superfluous in his mind.

[Konchadunga]

Originally Posted by Mr._Mutant_Man

No he's not. A Mary Sue is a character that a writer comes up with as wish fulfillment to put themselves into the story. Now in a way, everyone wishes they were Batman, but I don't think that counts.

Actually, it's not necessarily a self-insert character; that's a common mistake. Wish-fulfillment is accurate enough, but a MS could just as easily be someone's ideal mate in their imagination.