Why do people hate 2k3 mikey?

[Refractive Reflections]

I agree with most of the complaints in this thread, and with what Turo602 said before:

Originally Posted by Turo602

I never liked how inconsistent Mikey was in 2k3. He's brave, selfless, and kind, but he's also a coward, obnoxious, and arrogant. What gives? Most people hate him because he was just plain annoying, which did bother me from time to time, but my biggest gripe with him was how he was portrayed as a coward on many occasions. Yeah, he kicked ass and even proved himself to be one of the stronger turtles despite his laziness, but he's supposed to be a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle... why the cowardice? Even in serious situations, he acts like he'd rather sit the fight out and make his brothers fight. It just completely ruins his character.

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

His compassion rarely got dealt with- only a handful of episodes even touched on it- likewise his creativity or resourcefulness. The Christmas episode was perfect, IMHO, showing just how GOOD he could be in ALL aspects of his persona. He foiled the robbery SINGLE-HANDEDLY, rescued the lost kitty, and managed to remind his brothers- and everyone ELSE present- that Christmas was really about thinking of others, all in a single episode

Those few episodes seemed to be the redeeming episodes from making 2K3 Mikey a complete one-dimensional grating and dumb comic relief character. Including Turo602's statement, it seems that the series always fell back on making Mikey the sole comic relief character based on comic idiocy and exasperating his brothers to a far higher caricature degree beyond what Mirage or OT Michelangelo were depicted. 2K3 Mikey may have his heart in the right place, but 4Kids could have certainly depicted him better though.

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

What's always annoyed me most about this version of him is NOT Mikey himself, but how his brothers treat him, IN SPITE of knowing his potential and that he really IS as good as they are, if not better in some ways. And yet, Raph especially STILL treats him as basically the joke of the family, Donnie brushes him off, and Leo mostly just seems to ignore him! What's a guy gotta do to get some credit??!! Apparently, take it up to a level that virtually guarantees he'll get noticed. Which seems to be what he does, for the most part. I actually like this version of him a lot, and I find it kind of sad that the one character who really NEEDS attention and validation more than the others so rarely gets it. He's considered the "kid brother", with all the lack of respect and consideration that such a role implies- and it definitely shows in the writing.

Well we have to ask, if all of his brothers are mistreating him or disregarding him to that extent (especially with 2K3 Raph's yelling and smacking upside the head), maybe they have a point? 2K3 Mikey's irritatingly loud, self-centered, attention seeking ways seem to be prominently in forefront for the sake of humor which simply falls flat for my comedic taste. It may be entertaining for some, but for me, it's at the expense of Michelangelo's character within the entire franchise, and for me, one of the worst depictions (thus this thread), but Nick Mikey is certainly coming close to it though. (Mercifully at least Nick Mikey doesn't have an ego as huge as 2K3 Mikey did...yeesh...)

[HotNunchuckFury]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

You seem to be confusing fear with cowardice, and they are not equivalent. One does not automatically indicate the other, and in all those instances, Mikey proved he was equal to the challenge, even when he was MOST afraid. That's NOT a coward, it's true courage.

I agree.

"I asked him, How can a man be brave if he's afraid? That is the only time a man can be brave, he told me." — Robb Stark

[Turo602]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

I'm not sure you understand what being a coward really means. Yes, in all those situations, he WAS quite scared. And with good reason. The others may have "known" the dangers, but they were far less concerned about them than he was. Call it overconfidence or simple underestimation of what they were getting into. At several points in Notes, Mikey points out that they don't know what they are dealing with, and urges them not to go poking into things they don't understand. He did the same thing in that C'thulu episode, which was certainly creepy as heck. In each case, they ended up getting in WAAY over their heads, in spite of his warnings.

In all of those cases, he seemed to have a far better grasp of the danger levels than the others did, possibly because of his "obsession" with horror movies- he fully EXPECTED something nasty and dangerous, and could easily imagine it being more than they could handle- more so than his brothers, who were far more confident and cool about those situations than they should have been. Any SANE person would have been much more concerned than they appeared to be, especially in Notes, when they found the claw marks and the acid that ate through the walls. That should have clued them in that they were dealing with something they might not be able to handle- but they basically just shrugged and kept going, with little pause even to consider what kind of creature could be capable of such a thing. Then again, Leo IS the "fearless" one, and he tends to brush off a lot of things that others would shy from, and Raph wouldn't want to be outdone by Leo, and Donnie is just too curious for his own darn good at times. Given their personalities, it's no wonder Mikey was the one with all the sense in those episodes!

How were they far less concerned? You seem to be blowing Mikey's character out of proportion here and in doing so, completely underselling the other turtles... Just because the others don't act stupid and scared for comic relief, doesn't mean they are any less scared. They're the goddamn TMNT, it's their job to confront dangerous beings, especially when they're affecting their home. Are their fights with Shredder any less intimidating or dangerous? Yet, Mikey doesn't act like a complete wuss. He suddenly becomes serious like the rest of them have been. That doesn't make him any less aware of the situation. Like I said, inconsistent, just to fit the theme of the episode or for the sake of comedy.

In contrast to his supposed "cowardice" in those episodes, REAL cowardice means that a person will attempt to avoid the perceived danger AT ALL COSTS, not just "when the chips are down" but will not even put themselves in the dangerous position AT ALL. Mikey has NEVER done that. Yes, he gets scared- who wouldn't in those situations?- but he NEVER refused to fight or to aid his brothers when in need, nor was he "forced" into anything. At any point, he could have left, and there's little they could have done to stop him. Particularly after the others had all been captured by the Atlantean guy. But he didn't. He stayed, in SPITE of being nervous and uncomfortable about those situations. And he pushed aside his fear to deal with the problem at hand. Hardly the acts of a coward.

Grumbling about having a bad feeling about something, and admitting fear, is NOT the same as cowardice- it's simply knowing that the situation is dangerous, and vocalizing that acknowledgement. In fact, in the Shokunobo one, he practically took the lead in getting everyone out safely! That's not the act of a coward. Real bravery is ACTING IN SPITE OF one's fear, stepping up when needed, even though one might be absolutely terrified. Bravery is not the ABSENCE of fear, it is being able to set it aside and get through the danger. A coward would not be able to do that, even under duress. He'd crumple under pressure, if that was the case. In none of those cases- even when he was most afraid, did he back down, turn tail, and run. He pushed through his fears, which a coward COULD NOT do. That's the difference. Even when he wanted to turn back in Notes, he didn't, partly because he didn't want to leave his brothers to face whatever was ahead without him, and partly because he didn't want to be left alone himself. In other words, he realized that there was safety in numbers, and that they might need him. That's not cowardice, it's common sense.

Nor was he a coward in the Battle Nexus or Grudge Match- he didn't think he could win, and he WAS very insecure and felt his chances were slim, but that's not the same thing either. In both fights, when he realized that there was more at stake than a simple tournament, he stepped up and showed his true colors- and won. Asking Leo for help knowing that he was woefully unprepared for the fight in Grudge Match shows that he knew he was in a bad position, not that he was a coward. There's nothing at all wrong with admitting to one's weaknesses, and that one needs help.

If you think Mikey hasn't displayed cowardice in this series, then we clearly haven't watched the same show. Did he not sit idly by in Notes From the Underground part 2 while his brothers were losing a fight? Like a coward, he did nothing to lend a helping hand in a moment of danger ensuring his own safety. Becoming courageous by the end of the arc is irrelevant because he always ends up regressing. For example, wanting to ditch his rematch with Kluh... Another cowardly act that he was talked away from going through with. Any growth Mikey makes as a character is ruined by his immaturity in later episodes. Also, realistically, he lost that fight against Kluh.

Heh, I was at my local Wal-Mart yesterday after we went to see Transformers, and as luck would have it, they had both several pegs on the main Nick TMNT display, as well as an entire endcap for the movie toys. I wasn't too impressed with the basic figures, but I fell in love with the larger "Combat Warrior" figures that had the actions, particularly Mikey. I loved how he twirls his three-piece, and he comes with the chucks for his other hand (HOW does one dual-wield a three-piece AND chucks together ??!! ) and you can also lower his arms to a "ready stance". Naturally, I HAD to get him!! The movie role-play stuff was cute. I want to get a pair of the chucks from the movie- they have some sort of dragon "etching" on them, like what he appears to have in the movie.

Good for you, I guess?

You seem to be confusing fear with cowardice, and they are not equivalent. One does not automatically indicate the other, and in all those instances, Mikey proved he was equal to the challenge, even when he was MOST afraid. That's NOT a coward, it's true courage.

I haven't confused a thing. Like I said, he's acted cowardly and that's very unlike a Ninja Turtle and his overall growth as a character is diminished by his constant switching back and forth from wimp to brave, brave to wimp. You're just reading too deep into his character trying to give him a psyche and explanation for his actions when the actual showings don't indicate what you're proposing.

[fridaynightdestination]

I'm still early in the series, just getting into it, but so far he seems OK. 2012 Mikey is still my favorite though.

[thebrownranger]

Originally Posted by Machias Banshee

MsMarvelDuckie,

That has to be one of the best interpretations of 2K3 Michelangelo I've ever read.

Everything you said about him trying to prove himself, and not just be "Leo's/Donnies/Raph's brother" or "the baby of the family"... having to constantly tell himself that he's not just a joke or a failure. Hiding behind a silly mask... or using humor to hide what he really feels.

I've always related most to Mike because he and his brothers reminds me so much of me and my older brothers. It hits so close to home... but it's perfect.

I agree. Very good interpretation. 2k3 Mikey is one of my favorite versions of him; I don't see him as a coward, obnoxious or inferior to his brothers.

[Whatswiththeheadbands?]

Originally Posted by Redeemer

I couldn't tell you, but I understand why raph fans are upset by the interpretation of his character. So bland and one dimensional at time

2k3 Raph is my favorite version of him. And my favorite Turtle is Raph, so...

[Technogeek29]

On the note of Mikey displaying cowardice and wanting to run. Luigi is more or less the same. In fact up until dream team of Mario wasn't holding his hand, Luigi was miles away from the danger unlike Mikey 2k3 Luigi has ran f f from danger despite the fact Mario needs him.


Edit: don't give me wrong I like Luigi he's awesome.

[Turo602]

Originally Posted by Technogeek29

On the note of Mikey displaying cowardice and wanting to run. Luigi is more or less the same. In fact up until dream team of Mario wasn't holding his hand, Luigi was miles away from the danger unlike Mikey 2k3 Luigi has ran f f from danger despite the fact Mario needs him.

Clearly not... Like I said, Notes From the Underground part 2. The fact that Mikey would act like that from time to time is just disappointing. Also, what does Luigi have to do with anything?

[HotNunchuckFury]

Originally Posted by Redeemer

I couldn't tell you, but I understand why raph fans are upset by the interpretation of his character. So bland and one dimensional at time

Haha, it was this series where Raph won me over!

[pennydreadful]

Originally Posted by whatswiththeheadbands?

2k3 Raph is my favorite version of him. And my favorite Turtle is Raph, so...

Uh yeah, ditto on that one... I love 2k3 Raph!

[Technogeek29]

Originally Posted by Turo602

Clearly not... Like I said, Notes From the Underground part 2. The fact that Mikey would act like that from time to time is just disappointing. Also, what does Luigi have to do with anything?

You mentioned people who were cowards yet are suppose to be heroes. Luigi seemed like perfect example of a guy who is terribly afraid of everything but presses on despite his fear. Mikey in notes of the underground was more or less the same.

[Turo602]

Originally Posted by Technogeek29

You mentioned people who were cowards yet are suppose to be heroes. Luigi seemed like perfect example of a guy who is terribly afraid of everything but presses on despite his fear. Mikey in notes of the underground was more or less the same.

Leo was afraid of the Foot Elite, yet still fought in battle and got over his fear. Much like Luigi who is afraid but still confronts his fears, right then and there. Mikey flat out did nothing and stood back. Learning that the monsters were good and proceeding on with the mission doesn't make up for his lack of courage in a moment where his brothers needed him.

[tmntpower1988]

Mikey in SAINW was badass.

[Panther10]

I liked him in Fast forward. even though he was completely obnoxious from seasons 3-5 that part of his personality seemed to taper off a bit in the last two seasons.

[Netkeeper]

Originally Posted by tmntpower1988

Mikey in SAINW was badass.

Mikey was easily the best SAINW-verse turtle. I really love that design.

[DarkLightDragon]

It'd be pretty impossible for him to retain his goofball nature despite him bearing and witnessing so much hardship in SAINW. From feeling helpless to save innocent people to seeing his family crumble apart (Don was missing, Splinter and Casey dead, Leo and Raph going separate ways).

[CyberCubed]

I wish 2k3 Mikey was written like Season 1 and early Season 2 throughout his entire run.

Something clearly changed as the show progressed.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by Turo602

How were they far less concerned? You seem to be blowing Mikey's character out of proportion here and in doing so, completely underselling the other turtles... Just because the others don't act stupid and scared for comic relief, doesn't mean they are any less scared. They're the goddamn TMNT, it's their job to confront dangerous beings, especially when they're affecting their home. Are their fights with Shredder any less intimidating or dangerous? Yet, Mikey doesn't act like a complete wuss. He suddenly becomes serious like the rest of them have been. That doesn't make him any less aware of the situation. Like I said, inconsistent, just to fit the theme of the episode or for the sake of comedy.

If you think Mikey hasn't displayed cowardice in this series, then we clearly haven't watched the same show. Did he not sit idly by in Notes From the Underground part 2 while his brothers were losing a fight? Like a coward, he did nothing to lend a helping hand in a moment of danger ensuring his own safety. Becoming courageous by the end of the arc is irrelevant because he always ends up regressing. For example, wanting to ditch his rematch with Kluh... Another cowardly act that he was talked away from going through with. Any growth Mikey makes as a character is ruined by his immaturity in later episodes. Also, realistically, he lost that fight against Kluh.

I haven't confused a thing. Like I said, he's acted cowardly and that's very unlike a Ninja Turtle and his overall growth as a character is diminished by his constant switching back and forth from wimp to brave, brave to wimp. You're just reading too deep into his character trying to give him a psyche and explanation for his actions when the actual showings don't indicate what you're proposing.

Yeah, they WERE less concerned. At the beginning of Notes, DON's biggest worry was the tunnel collapsing! Compare that to Mikey, who was more worried about WHAT made the claw marks IN CONCRETE and ate through stone with ACID. Seems to me Donnie wasn't exactly worried about the more dangerous threat. Same goes with the others. They calmly discuss what it might be almost as if discussing a routine doctor's appointment or the like. They seemed oblivious that whatever did it might STILL BE THERE. And when they actually encountered the source (Quarry and crew) they pursued them (rather recklessly, given their abilities) rather than acknowledging that they might have bitten off more than they could handle. Why? What exactly did they think they were going to do against those creatures? Mikey was the only one who felt it was a situation best left alone. To use an old quote, sometimes discretion really IS the better part of valor. He seems to have a better grasp of that concept than the others.

SAINW is an interesting case, too. It shows the Mikey that we see glimpses of all through the series, but rarely get more than a brief hint of. It's the part that exists behind the goofball, attention-seeking "wimp". It's a more mature and serious side, but it existed all through the series- in small moments here and there. One can easily see how he became the bad-a$$ he is in that episode, by observing the moments when the gloves and "mask" of comedic slacker come off. That's always been part of who he is. This series just made it much more of a dual-persona than any other version. There's the dumb, lazy, cocky, and wimpy Mikey that we see in much of the series, and the "real" one who isn't as dumb or cowardly as he appears.

Using Notes as the main "evidence" to back up your stance that he's a coward is a straw-man argument. Same with Grudge Match. He never expected to win the tournament in the FIRST place, so being called into question after he DID- and by the very opponent he had beaten to claim that title- was both upsetting and an insult. And how did he lose? With the safety protocols disabled in that second match, he might have been down briefly, but he was never out. Kluh CHEATED, in any case, so it was an unfair match to begin with (BOTH TIMES! There was interference the first time, too....) and yet Mikey STILL took him down. So that argument doesn't hold water.

I don't know what YOU were watching, but in every instance, he pulled through, even though he was in WAY over his head and KNEW it. He acts goofy much of the time, and occasionally DOES get a swelled ego- I'll give you that point- but at NO TIME did he ever abandon his brothers to save himself, or refuse to aid them when they needed him. Again, none of that is real cowardice- YES, he was afraid, and wanted to avoid what were CLEARLY unknown threats. (Your using Shredder as a basis of comparison makes no sense- they KNEW what to expect from him.) Yet even when he "sat by" as you call it (more like trying NOT to make himself a target, but po-TAY-to, po-TAH-to) he still stepped in when it was needed. He consistently shows his TRUE courage, overcoming obstacles that would have defeated him if he was the coward you assert him to be.

And reading too deep? As opposed to what? Simply labeling him a coward and not looking into WHY he acts that way? He's the comic relief, that's not in dispute, but the idea that he is a "wimp" is laughable, considering what he's faced. He in no way resembles the cowardly wimp you paint him as- on the surface, he is easily intimidated and even frightened more than the others. And that's ALWAYS been part of his character. But when duty calls or his family is threatened, he's just as brave as any of the others, and will come through in the end, IN SPITE of his flaws. That is FAR more character development than you give the writers credit for. And it's those same flaws, exhibited over time, that show he has a REAL personality under the goofball persona. (Because real people DON'T always learn from their mistakes, or change their ways when confronted with their personal flaws.) As for "giving him a psyche that the show doesn't exhibit", I beg to differ. It's all there in the episodes- you just have to look beyond the surface of "Mikey is being a goof-off or acting scared".

[Panther10]

I think that by acting as the comic relief, the 2k3 mikey has basically become an allegory for the Greek chorus from the ancient Greek plays. I say this because he kind of functions as the character that is not neccesarily part of the action, but he is more beside it. He is basically the outsider looking in. Michelangelo is reacting to the chaos and confusion around him in the same way your average viewer would. If it weren't for characters like April, Casey or Michelangelo, the world of the turtles would seem too alien to even comprehend. But when we see these outsiders we see ourselves in them and that makes their journey more relatable to us.

[Netkeeper]

Michelangelo is usually the character writers try to make the most "human". For most people I've met, he's the most relatable turtle. I think that is also a contributing factor to his popularity as a whole, because a lot of the Mikey fans I see prefer him for those reasons.