10 Ways To Make Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 2 Not Suck

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by TrickOrTreater

Good thing it's a f*cking movie then.

But, like we've read, a past life makes soooo much more sense...right?

[TrickOrTreater]

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

But, like we've read, a past life makes soooo much more sense...right?

"Let's substitute something slightly ridiculous but also charming that the original creators did with something EVEN MORE RIDICULOUS AND CLICHE AND CONVOLUTED"

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by TrickOrTreater

"Let's substitute something slightly ridiculous but also charming that the original creators did with something EVEN MORE RIDICULOUS AND CLICHE AND CONVOLUTED"

Careful, you're sounding dangerously close to a hollywood screenwriter!

[TrickOrTreater]

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

Careful, you're sounding dangerously close to a hollywood screenwriter!

No, THOSE guys go the opposite route.

"Just make him learn it from some karate book somebody flushed down a toilet. *line of coke off hooker's chest*"

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by TrickOrTreater

No, THOSE guys go the opposite route.

"Just make him learn it from some karate book somebody flushed down a toilet. *line of coke off hooker's chest*"

"OMG, what if everything is connected? What if it's all fate! SNORT I'm a genius! No ones ever done that before!"

[TrickOrTreater]

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

"OMG, what if everything is connected? What if it's all fate! SNORT I'm a genius! No ones ever done that before!

"Hey Megan you wanna be the inexplicable star of another beloved franchise again?" *hooker pops her head up* "Damn right I do!"

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by TrickOrTreater

"Hey Megan you wanna be the inexplicable star of another beloved franchise again?" *hooker pops her head up* "Damn right I do!"

Megan: "Is it okay if I get pregnant first?"
Bay: "Don't worry, this party is just getting started kid."

[TrickOrTreater]

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

Megan: "Is it okay if I get pregnant first?"
Bay: "Don't worry, this party is just getting started kid."

In between his steak and martinis of course.

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by TrickOrTreater

In between his steak and martinis of course.

I wonder if there is any relation between Brian-Austin Green and Dave Green.

[TrickOrTreater]

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

I wonder if there is any relation between Brian-Austin Green and Dave Green.

Green! His name is Green! Get it! They're Turtles and GREEn!

*snoooooooort*

WOOO

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

But again, you allowing mutagene to be a maguffin, and not adhering to your very strict rules of what is and is not possible. You're cherry picking the parts you agree with , and ignoring what you don't, no different than anyone else.

You're writer argument holds no water, as you're suggestion incorporates the ability to read, in English. Absolutely a bridge to far, one that the movie invokes in fact. Splinter spontaneously learns to speak and read English?

Surely both of those abilities are far more complex than mimicking body movements.

Idw's version requires some sort of spirituality, which is, in my opinion the antithesis of what TMNT is about.

All the past life stuff is mumbo jumbo nonsense, and is of severe detriment to the comics.

No, not cherry-picking, unless by that you mean taking the parts that actually make sense from a plausibility stand-point and leaving what doesn't. As for the writer example, that was precisely my point. My cat being able to not only read, but write as well, is about as likely as learning a complex SET of skills (NOT JUST BODY MOVEMENTS!) just by watching a human do it. Remember, Yoshi was a ninja MASTER- which entails far more than just knowing and performing a few basic fighting moves. It's balance, stealth, weaponry(of SEVERAL varieties) survival and infiltration skills, and even things like holding one's breath, hiding in plain sight, long-distance running, etc. And a rat is going to learn all this HOW??! Especially in a life-span of (assuming he was a pet from a VERY young age) at MOST five or six years??!! He'd have to be watching Yoshi 24-7! And in all kinds of environments and situations, which is bloody well unlikely. He's JUST a rat, after all.

And given how it's been used in the past, the mutagen might as well BE a Maguffin. The rules seem to vary from one version to another, but one thing has remained fairly constant- that it mutates a creature to take on the attributes of the last creature it was in contact with. Somehow, I missed the part where it also allows a creature to "remember" things it had no prior understanding of. Learning something AFTER mutation? Sure. But how can someone be expected to swallow the idea that the subject already "knew" something just from having seen it? THAT's the absurd part, IMHO. Then again, learning to speak seems to be a commonly gained ability for nearly every incarnation, particularly Nick. I'll give you a pass on that one, but only because it's possible (going by current research) that an animal might understand human speech- we just don't know to what extent. Hob learned it pretty fast, as did Pete in Nick. Neither seemed to have much prior exposure to it. (Although Hob was a pet, but we don't know for how long.)

I take it you're not a fan of IDW. Having been a practitioner and student of esoteric studies FOR YEARS, I can say that it's NOT mumbo-jumbo in IDW. It DOES have basis in several real-world beliefs, and given that supernatural elements have long been a part of TMNT, it fits perfectly with that aspect of their universe. Spirituality the antithesis of TMNT??!! Have we been reading/watching the same shows and comics? Mirage especially was chock FULL of spiritual elements. I don't have very many issues, but several of the ones I DO have revolve around spirit journeys and shamanic type quests. And we have Savanti Romero, who is a demon. Among other examples I probably am not aware of. The OT had the dragon egg that Shredder hatched in the second Usagi episode, along with the ghost of the Foot Clan's founder in "Blast From the Past", and another ghost in Farewell, Lotus Blossom(and Lotus as a reincarnated Japanese Empress!). Spirituality and supernatural elements have been part of the TMNT from the get-go! We've even seen evidence that Splinter is a Buddhist, and astral projection/communication, among other things. How is reincarnation any different? Actually, given the Lotus example, IDW seems right in line with earlier examples of exactly that sort of thing.

This is a subject I'm VERY familiar with, so it's hardly surprising to me they went that route. I really liked it for that very reason. A little judicious digging into reincarnation myths around the world led to some really interesting results. Such as a Zuni Indian belief that the spirits of a tribe's deceased relatives take up residence in the bodies of their tribal totem animal. Guess what one of them is? A turtle. Human spirits in the bodies of turtles- if THAT isn't IDW to a "T", I don't know what is. And it fits perfectly with Splinter's prayer from the very first volume. As we've already seen, one of the main themes in IDW is Fate and destiny, (Shredder's micro makes this clear) so it's really very much a part of that particular "incarnation".

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

No, not cherry-picking, unless by that you mean taking the parts that actually make sense from a plausibility stand-point and leaving what doesn't. ...

This is a subject I'm VERY familiar with, so it's hardly surprising to me they went that route. I really liked it for that very reason.

Religion is not allowed as a topic of conversation, so I'll be brief.
Je Suis Charlie. 'Nuff said?

There is absolutely nothing at all plausible about reincarnation. And yes, cherry picking means exactly what you've done, picking only the parts that you agree with, and leaving the rest.

I don't disagree that there are supernatural elements contained in later stories, especially in TNM, one of the low points of the brand for me, if I'm being honest.

I think much of IDW is great, actually, I just tend to skip over any spiritual undertones, and try to enjoy the rest.

Also, not for nothing, but typing on an ipad is annoying. Please excuse any typos.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

Religion is not allowed as a topic of conversation, so I'll be brief.
Je Suis Charlie. 'Nuff said?

There is absolutely nothing at all plausible about reincarnation. And yes, cherry picking means exactly what you've done, picking only the parts that you agree with, and leaving the rest.

I don't disagree that there are supernatural elements contained in later stories, especially in TNM, one of the low points of the brand for me, if I'm being honest.

I think much of IDW is great, actually, I just tend to skip over any spiritual undertones, and try to enjoy the rest.

Also, not for nothing, but typing on an ipad is annoying. Please excuse any typos.

Okay, call it cherry-picking if you want, the point was that I'm taking the parts that actually make some kind of (semi-logical) sense in terms of what would be possible for an ordinary rat. I simply have little interest in a completely unrealistic origin where a rat can/will do things that are simply not possible BEFORE being mutated. After mutation, all bets are off. Period. That's been the point of this entire discourse. Feel free to disagree, but that's just how I look at it- if a rat can't do it, why put it in there? That was the ONE thing that took me out of the original movie- everything else was fine. But watching Splinter doing karate kicks from his cage just looked ridiculous to me, and made me wonder if anyone had bothered researching animal anatomy first. Heck, I'd happily take Nick, with Tang Shen still a part of it, as long as Splinter was still a human first over being a rat. Or if he MUST be a rat, at least the reincarnation origin gives him a good reason to know this stuff!

And who said anything about discussing religion in RL? I'm talking about spirituality, mythology, and the supernatural (or esoteric, if you prefer) in the context of TMNT, where it HAS been a part of the multiverse, which was exactly what I was pointing out. It just happens to be something I know a lot about. You haven't explained why you think reincarnation is implausible, when it's clearly been part of the franchise for a very long time, and in spite of whatever personal beliefs you may have regarding the subject, that doesn't invalidate that it makes sense in the world of the TMNT. It's simply part of a very large and diverse tapestry of ideas and themes. One I find particularly interesting and thought-provoking, due to the many stories that can be told with it. This is very deep stuff, and can be dark and depressing or uplifting and hopeful, depending on how it's used.

One of the things I'd like to see in any incarnation is the turtles themselves inadvertently giving rise to some of the legends of things like kappa via time-travel, or discovering that they were NOT the first of their kind- an Utrom experiment or accident in ancient Japan might have spawned earlier mutant turtles, thus birthing said legends. Or they travel to the Arizona desert and are somehow mistaken for totem spirits in Earthly form, and learn about the Zuni beliefs- which in turn opens up questions of how/why they have souls. That would be an amazing TMNT story in ANY medium.

[The Boston Ninja Turtle]

Duckie...i like you ...but i gotta ask...you realize we are talking about a francise based on a comic book about 4 walking talking turtles who learn kung fu that where a parody of daredevil


the realism kinfa stops right after the turtles are bought from a pet store


though todays prices that would be at least 100 bucks down the drain

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Okay, call it cherry-picking if you want, the point was that I'm taking the parts that actually make some kind of (semi-logical) sense in terms of what would be possible for an ordinary rat...

But you buy into reincarnation? Dead is dead, I can't buy into something that died, suddenly becoming another living being. It's impossible to me. For me, it is possible that a rat might have memories of watching their owner perform katas or what ever. That could be possible, given that we know rats have memories, as people have memories. It's not a huge stretch to suppose the rat could retain memories. Memories are not solely based on what you find interesting. Maybe your memories are, but mine sure are not. I have all sorts of memories, pleasant, unpleasant exciting, boring, pointless facts etc.

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

You haven't explained why you think reincarnation is implausible, when it's clearly been part of the franchise for a very long time, and in spite of whatever personal beliefs you may have regarding the subject, that doesn't invalidate that it makes sense in the world of the TMNT. ... This is very deep stuff, and can be dark and depressing or uplifting and hopeful, depending on how it's used.

Again, I don't think there is an afterlife of any kind, including the idea of a soul, and therefore, it is absurd to me, simply put. Any fiction that uses elements of heaven, hell, etc is boring in my opinion. When I encounter it in TMNT media, I turn off. Reincarnation is an extension of belief that is actually retarded, and I'm using that word in it's proper context, it retards our understanding of life, supposing false answers in place of questions. It's detrimental to the growth of humanity, and insulting to intelligent individuals. I'd like to not discuss it though, seeing as this is a hot button issue at the best of times. I've only replied to the question, and wish to say no more so as not to really offend the theists here.

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

One of the things I'd like to see in any incarnation is the turtles themselves inadvertently giving rise to some of the legends of things like kappa via time-travel, or discovering that they were NOT the first of their kind- an Utrom experiment or accident in ancient Japan might have spawned earlier mutant turtles, thus birthing said legends. Or they travel to the Arizona desert and are somehow mistaken for totem spirits in Earthly form, and learn about the Zuni beliefs- which in turn opens up questions of how/why they have souls. That would be an amazing TMNT story in ANY medium.

So, you liked the blue door script? I would have never guessed.
You and I are interested in completely different subject matter.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Yes, but there is still such a thing as realism in context of world-building, yes? This is one of the foundations of good writing and setting a stage the audience can believe in. And I think it actually stops once they get doused with the mutagen, although I suppose it kind of depends on who's holding the bowl at the time, LOL! (Nick never DID explain why Yoshi bought the turtles, or why he thought it prudent to follow those Kraang down the alley. That was a REALLY bad idea for a guy who had his hands full with a bowl of turtles....)

I just prefer a bit more SCI in my sci-fi, FWIW. At least in terms of the "humble beginnings" of these once-ordinary animals. Once you throw in the mutagen, as I said, insert whatever zany, weird, outrageous stuff you want. But for the love of (insert deity/epithet/etc of choice here) PLEASE at least have the decency for the humble, ordinary animals they started as to be just THAT. Not some sort of unrealistic "humanized" version of said "ordinary" animal. Keep the anthropomorphizing for AFTER the mutations!!!

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by The Boston Ninja Turtle

Duckie...i like you ...but i gotta ask...you realize we are talking about a francise based on a comic book about 4 walking talking turtles who learn kung fu that where a parody of daredevil


the realism kinfa stops right after the turtles are bought from a pet store


though todays prices that would be at least 100 bucks down the drain

Yeah, but wouldn't it have been sweet, to have that as the opening? The whole DD rip-off as the lead in? Leaving the pet-shop, car chase, cars swerves to avoid the old man and Chet, See Chet lose the turtles down the sewer, camera follows them down the drain into black, a canister of glowing liquid smashes open above them. title credits roll.

Damn, just take my money.

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Yes, but there is still such a thing as realism in context of world-building, yes? This is one of the foundations of good writing and setting a stage the audience can believe in. And I think it actually stops once they get doused with the mutagen, although I suppose it kind of depends on who's holding the bowl at the time, LOL! (Nick never DID explain why Yoshi bought the turtles, or why he thought it prudent to follow those Kraang down the alley. That was a REALLY bad idea for a guy who had his hands full with a bowl of turtles....)

I just prefer a bit more SCI in my sci-fi, FWIW. At least in terms of the "humble beginnings" of these once-ordinary animals. Once you throw in the mutagen, as I said, insert whatever zany, weird, outrageous stuff you want. But for the love of (insert deity/epithet/etc of choice here) PLEASE at least have the decency for the humble, ordinary animals they started as to be just THAT. Not some sort of unrealistic "humanized" version of said "ordinary" animal. Keep the anthropomorphizing for AFTER the mutations!!!

YES! I agree, but I'm not trying to anthropomorphize Splinter. I'm citing scientific studies, and working with the source to establish the REASON for a blood feud. Otherwise they are 4 animals that happen to mutate, but are still just animals, with zero reason to care at all that one human is initiating a crime wave in New York. They have no reason to care! Why does splinter train them? In the 1st issue, it's because he wants revenge. He wants them to kill Saki.
Otherwise? "Hey freaks, let's get crazy and learn some martial arts cause, well, I'm just zany and bored."

By Splinter having a Motive, or an Agenda, his actions have purpose. It also opens up the opportunity for the Turtles to question Splinter. Being trained to kill from birth, by a father figure is actual, heavy stuff.

Issue 1 is the essential story. It needs to be told properly, as it does all the world building necessary. Every story after issue 1 is, in my view, an attempt to continue that stand alone story.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

But you buy into reincarnation? Dead is dead, I can't buy into something that died, suddenly becoming another living being. It's impossible to me. For me, it is possible that a rat might have memories of watching their owner perform katas or what ever. That could be possible, given that we know rats have memories, as people have memories. It's not a huge stretch to suppose the rat could retain memories. Memories are not solely based on what you find interesting. Maybe your memories are, but mine sure are not. I have all sorts of memories, pleasant, unpleasant exciting, boring, pointless facts etc.


Again, I don't think there is an afterlife of any kind, including the idea of a soul, and therefore, it is absurd to me, simply put. Any fiction that uses elements of heaven, hell, etc is boring in my opinion. When I encounter it in TMNT media, I turn off. Reincarnation is an extension of belief that is actually retarded, and I'm using that word in it's proper context, it retards our understanding of life, supposing false answers in place of questions. It's detrimental to the growth of humanity, and insulting to intelligent individuals. I'd like to not discuss it though, seeing as this is a hot button issue at the best of times. I've only replied to the question, and wish to say no more so as not to really offend the theists here.

So, you liked the blue door script? I would have never guessed.
You and I are interested in completely different subject matter.

Blue Door? Oh GAWDS no! At least, not from what I've seen/heard of it. Honestly, I'm glad we got what we did over THAT potential travesty. Where did I ever say I liked it?! TMNT as aliens and "chosen" of their race? Um- no. Smacks too much of Superman or some such for my taste. These are NOT the "saviors/last survivors" of some alien planet. Just- that would kill it as TMNT.

As for reincarnation, etc- I "buy into" that AS A STORY/ORIGIN, yes. I do happen to have done a LOT of research and study on esoteric subjects- for reasons I won't get into- but that is simply something I enjoy in my fiction. I am an avid lover of Greek and roman mythology- after all, what were those stories if not man's first "superheroes"? Calling them gods and such is just an easy way to describe larger-than-life heroes and villains, explain phenomena that people didn't understand, and- well, you get the idea. Modern superhero comics are not so different. They ARE the mythology of our time. Turtles included. Likewise with much of our modern sci-fi and fantasy. A thousand years from now, people will marvel (heh, play on words there) that we were so fascinated by these outrageous and unbelievable stories of creatures that couldn't and didn't exist. sound familiar? That's no different than people telling stories of kappas or the exploits of Coyote or Anansi.

As for what a rat would remember, I think it's more a case of what would the rat pay attention to as relevant(ie, conscious memory), rather than what it has SEEN. Sure, it might remember SEEING him do those things, but would it pay attention to it enough to LEARN it? Highly doubtful. Rats don't think the same way we do, nor do they have the same priorities or motivations. A rat seeing his master do katas would likely be more interested in a fly that happens to buzz around its cage, or the food sitting in its bowl than the man standing on the other end of the room making odd movements it doesn't comprehend. Certainly not enough interest to be able to CLEARLY and ACCURATELY remember those movements years later. And therein lies the crux of it. How does the animal with NO use for or attention span for a human activity suddenly magically remember it well enough to not only become a Master of said activity himself, but teach it to others? He can't. He has no frame of reference other than some vague recollection of something his master used to do that he never actively paid attention to. Which is why ANY other origin works better.

I'm not saying E&L's original version was bad, it just- seems weird and forced. I'd have bought into it better perhaps if Yoshi had still been alive after Splinter and turtle-tots mutated, and Splinter began studying under him then. (And then Yoshi gets killed, and Splinter has much more motivation for wanting revenge!) Now THAT would be an epic origin! (And it would tie everything together more realistically.)

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

YES! I agree, but I'm not trying to anthropomorphize Splinter. I'm citing scientific studies, and working with the source to establish the REASON for a blood feud. Otherwise they are 4 animals that happen to mutate, but are still just animals, with zero reason to care at all that one human is initiating a crime wave in New York. They have no reason to care! Why does splinter train them? In the 1st issue, it's because he wants revenge. He wants them to kill Saki.
Otherwise? "Hey freaks, let's get crazy and learn some martial arts cause, well, I'm just zany and bored."

By Splinter having a Motive, or an Agenda, his actions have purpose. It also opens up the opportunity for the Turtles to question Splinter. Being trained to kill from birth, by a father figure is actual, heavy stuff.

Issue 1 is the essential story. It needs to be told properly, as it does all the world building necessary. Every story after issue 1 is, in my view, an attempt to continue that stand alone story.

I'm not saying remove Splinter's motive, I'm just saying he should have a REASON for that motive. Revenge is a HUMAN emotion, one that animals don't understand or pursue. If anything, Splinter's motive would have been simply to seek a new home and source of food, in the original scenario. Why would he CARE what happened to Yoshi beyond losing his source of both? Makes no sense. But if he WAS Yoshi, or had been in a past life, then suddenly that death (or exile in the case of the OT and Nick) has far more meaning to him. Or- see my above post for an alternative version that uses both Yoshi and rat-Splinter.

No amount of studies are going to give a rat a purely human motive, sadly. And isn't that what we're discussing? Human motives? Splinter's motive really only works if he WAS one, at some point. Otherwise, he's just a rat who went "rabid" on a guy who knocked over his cage during a fight, and then later remembers that that same man was responsible for his loss of a home and food-source. And suddenly decides he wants paybacks for that loss.

[pennydreadful]

Originally Posted by Purse Grabbin Puke

I couldn't learn what that girl did either way. The only way Splinter would be a master is if:
1. He was human and was trained by a sensei
2. Was trained by a sensei after he became mutated.

There is no way by just watching Yoshi do his kata (basically a dance) he would learn the psychology of the martial art. I think it's safe to say the best way to have Splinter's mastery of Martial Arts explained is to have him be Hamato Yoshi first.

Also, my father was a black belt in Karate, and Judo, and he used to make me go to his dojo as a kid, I sat there and watched and watched for HOURS for years...never learned a thing.

Well, you did say that you personally have a problem with learning by watching - but it doesn't mean that someone else couldn't. Just like I have a problem with math - that doesn't mean that someone else can't do sums in their head just because I can't.

Originally Posted by Powder

What boggles my mind is that they went so far as to even storyboard a different origin, in which Splinter has the techniques implanted into his mind while he was a lab rat, which while kinda ridiculous, is a hell of a lot easier to swallow. Yet they opted to give him a Solson's martial arts guide. I can only assume that was changed due to how expensive the CGI got. I hope that's why, anyway, because if a team of people thought a handbook made more sense, then I weep for the future of mankind.

What chaps my wizened hide is that I feel they only changed the origin to begin with because they weren't competent enough to convey the Yoshi/Saki backstory (despite the fact that it's been conveyed quite easily in numerous childrens cartoons). They didn't sit down and go "I have a good idea and think this would add to the story" - they changed it because they're lazy writers. They seem to have borrowed so heavily from the OT with everything else, I feel that they would have gone for the origin in that cartoon were it not for the fact that they're not good enough storytellers to figure out how to do it. I guess they never heard of flashbacks.

Though personally I would've rather had five minutes explaining a little backstory than twenty minutes of Megan Fox fluffing around being a "reporter" before we get any Turtle action. But hey, that's just me - I'm wacky that way.

As far as Splinter being motivated to copy Yoshi as a rat, I always had my own little headcanon that maybe Yoshi rewarded Splinter for doing things like standing up on his hind legs, and it went from there. They have done studies that show dogs will copy human body movements and behavior, even when they don't get a food reward.

http://news.discovery.com/animals/pe...ate-people.htm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/nation...3bf_story.html

Again, it's a all conjecture given that the basic premise requires a bit of suspension of disbelief, still, it's not completely implausible.