Does the Fred Wolf show get unfairly blamed?

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

If memory serves Eastman and Laird pitched to the big two, and turned down.
Mirage helped to usher in the age of the Indy Comic, which I think would have happened regardless of whether or not the FW toon came to be. I think the TMNT would have had the same impact it did on comics, just not the global phenomenon that it became because of the toon.

These "what-ifs" are fascinating. Curious if you know of any statements or interviews from larger independent comic publishers (e.g. Image) that attribute any inspiration to Mirage?

It seems to me that more impact on comics simply came from those half dozen creators at Marvel who finally said "screw this" and left to form creator-owned companies?

[plastroncafe]

Not off the top of my head, but a quick google gives me this:

A History of Indy Comic Books - Steven Phillip Jones

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

Not off the top of my head, but a quick google gives me this:

A History of Indy Comic Books - Steven Phillip Jones

Very cool... thanks!

Wow... check out this excerpt!

Independent comics scored a stunning success in 1984 with Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (#1, April), a black-and-white magazine-sized comic book published as a joke by amateur cartoonists Kevin Eastman and Peter Laird. TMNT became, in Wright’s words, “a megamerchandising bonanza” that was soon spun off into a long-running animated TV series, three live-action films, over two million toys and action figures, and a plethora of ancillary licensed products.[54] The Turtles’ success, meanwhile, ignited a black-and-white Indy comic book boom, and, over the next two years, hundreds of new small independent publishers flooded the market with black-and-white comic books, inflating the number of titles published each month from two hundred to eight hundred.[55] Many of these comics starred some variation of the Turtles or featured a super-team like the X-Men, and, for several months, speculators snapped up every title they could afford to buy. One TMNT copycat, Boris the Bear, proved popular enough to help launch Dark Horse Comics, founded in 1986 by Portland, Oregon comic shop owner Mike Richardson. A year later Dark Horse scored a critical success with Concrete (#1, March) by former Marvel creator Paul Chadwick, then hit it big commercially in 1988 with Aliens (#1 July). This original comic book sequel to the films Alien (1979) and Aliens (1986) cemented a symbiotic relationship between Dark Horse and the films’ studio, 20th Century Fox, that has since spawned hundreds of licensed comic books and a couple of popular films, including The Mask (1994) and Time Cop (1994).

Dark Horse came out of a TMNT spoof!

[Zak The Neutrino]

The only thing FW cartoon should be blamed for is taking TMNT mainstream and making it an international phenomenon.

Like it or love it we have many of what you guys do like because of the FW cartoon. Hell we probably wouldn't even have this forum without it.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

This thread should be locked. The IDW comic is heavily based on the original cartoon and people love it, so it goes to show you in the hands of good writers and OT elements are done well.

And once again I feel the need to remind you, just because it lifted ideas from the cartoon doesn't mean it's anything like the cartoon, not when they have been altered to such an extreme extent. Of course IDW took things from the Fred Wolf cartoon but they treated them like blank slates, gutted the old characterisation from the cartoon to make these characters and concepts appeal to a more mature audience.

Cartoon Krang was an incompetent weakling with an annoying voice, IDW Krang is a psychopath who wears the skin of his enemies.
Cartoon Bebop and Rocksteady behaved like children, IDW Bebop and Rocksteady are destructive monsters who makes light of extreme violence.
Cartoon Slash was a moron obsessed with palm trees, IDW Slash has extreme mood swings.
Cartoon Mutagen Man was worried he wouldn't be able to deliver a letter, IDW Mutagen Manis suicidal.

And it's probably worth mentioning that characters that did appear in the show but have been given plenty of appearences outside of it (such as Shredder) don't seem to borrow much from their Fred Wolf counterparts. I could go on but I think you get the point

[Powder]

I love the show but it f**ked up any chance of the public seeing the TMNT as anything more than goofy kids fodder. I mean, versions since have had their dark & serious moments, but are still handicapped by having to cater to casuals who won't accept anything that doesn't invoke nostalgic reminders of a thing they haven't given a damn about in 17 years.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by neatoman

Cartoon Krang was an incompetent weakling with an annoying voice, IDW Krang is a psychopath who wears the skin of his enemies.

You're calling Pat Farley's voice annoying? Wow, this is the first time I've ever heard anyone, in my 15 years of being part of the online TMNT fandom, say they found Krang's voice annoying. Pat Farley is almost considered the best and most iconic Krang voice we ever had.

As for IDW Krang, he's basically just Ch'rell from the 2k3 series.

Cartoon Bebop and Rocksteady behaved like children, IDW Bebop and Rocksteady are destructive monsters who makes light of extreme violence.
Cartoon Slash was a moron obsessed with palm trees, IDW Slash has extreme mood swings.
Cartoon Mutagen Man was worried he wouldn't be able to deliver a letter, IDW Mutagen Manis suicidal.

Well this is all common sense. Of course the characters will be reimagined. Look at the way the Nick cartoon versions have changed too, Rocksteady is Russian and Bebop twirls around like Michael Jackson. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the original incarnations, its that we get new takes to fit their universe.

Why do you think Rocksteady/Bebop keep coming back in the first place? They've returned in every new series (IDW, Nick, and now the movie), and are still the most popular mutant henchmen in the franchise. And its because of their original incarnations that they keep returning. Sure there was Archie Bebop/Rocksteady too, but they were too short-lived in that series to be as memorable as the Fred Wolf versions.

[Zak The Neutrino]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

You're calling Pat Farley's voice annoying? Wow, this is the first time I've ever heard anyone, in my 15 years of being part of the online TMNT fandom, say they found Krang's voice annoying. Pat Farley is almost considered the best and most iconic Krang voice we ever had.

As for IDW Krang, he's basically just Ch'rell from the 2k3 series.



Well this is all common sense. Of course the characters will be reimagined. Look at the way the Nick cartoon versions have changed too, Rocksteady is Russian and Bebop twirls around like Michael Jackson. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the original incarnations, its that we get new takes to fit their universe.

Why do you think Rocksteady/Bebop keep coming back in the first place? They've returned in every new series (IDW, Nick, and now the movie), and are still the most popular mutant henchmen in the franchise. And its because of their original incarnations that they keep returning. Sure there was Archie Bebop/Rocksteady too, but they were too short-lived in that series to be as memorable as the Fred Wolf versions.

I'm really surprised to say I agree with Cubed on this one.

[plastroncafe]

Krang's voice was/is super annoying.
That was kind of the point, but the fact remains.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

Krang's voice was/is super annoying.
That was kind of the point, but the fact remains.

When I think of annoying, I think bad. I never thought that about the voice.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

My 2 cents? Ch'rell is just a serious take on Krang and is what Krang SHOULD be.

It's kinda genius how 4Kids blended Krang and Shredder into one character, from a certain POV. Of course, from another POV, it's absolutely infuriating.

[CyberCubed]

Krang being "fun" or comedic is a huge aspect of his character. Take that away and he becomes way too much like Ch'rell.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Krang being "fun" or comedic is a huge aspect of his character. Take that away and he becomes way too much like Ch'rell.

Nah, not really. Only because the Fred Wolf cartoon didn't portray any characters seriously.

Krang is an intergalactic interdimensional psychopathic conquering tyrant. What part of that has to be "fun" or "comedic?"

[ABrown]

Does the original cartoon deserve to get ridiculed for the ridiculousness that took place in action cartoons back in the 80's? ABSOLUTELY. A big part of being a fan of franchises from the 80's is making fun of the ridiculous things that took place during them.

Now does it deserve to get blamed for anything, no. Without it, there might not ever have been the original live movies, the 4Kids series, and now the current Nickelodeon show/movies.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

Nah, not really. Only because the Fred Wolf cartoon didn't portray any characters seriously.

Krang is an intergalactic interdimensional psychopathic conquering tyrant. What part of that has to be "fun" or "comedic?"

Actually IDW did portray Krang like this in his micro when he was younger. He was a selfish, spoiled prince. Its only after he had to survive on that planet alone that he became serious and psychotic.

[Ceres]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Actually IDW did portray Krang like this in his micro when he was younger. He was a selfish, spoiled prince. Its only after he had to survive on that planet alone that he became serious and psychotic.

Not really, he was a spoiled and probably adolescent brat before he went to Morbus but in no way comedic or funny. At least not in the way FW Krang used to be.
And FW Krang was only goofy when he was teamed up with Shredder because of their married couple dynamic.

[Powder]

He never said he was funny.

[Galactus]

While the 1987 animated series could be seen as something which while making TMNT the huge phenomenon and a pop culture mainstay it had the drawback of making sure the brand could never be seen anything but a complete ridiculousness for kids.

I don't think the blame can be laid at the door of the show. The real blame is that everyone has let it.

TMNT isn't the only the comic book property that has had light hearted ultra goofy televised shows to advertise toys and yet no one holds that against the Justice League because of Super Friends. Batman himself is in many ways is comparable to TMNT in that it became well known due to a highly popular camp television show yet that doesn't hold back different takes.

Granted TMNT has some handicaps in this regard. The big one being that they are anthropomorphic animal characters which many people find hard to take as seriously. Beyond that the fact that Mirage was an indie publisher and still fairly 'new' still there's little reason why people in general are so dismissive of the comics or indeed any version other the Fred Wolf show as an irrelevance.

What's really weird is in doesn't seem as well remembered. Ask most people what Raphael's personality is and you'd get far more people saying that he's a loner or a hot head as opposed to the sarcastic one which he was in the show. Likewise Fred Wolf didn't like the idea of the turtles and Splinter being a family and while Wise and other writers sometimes try to portray them as such the idea of the turtles being brothers and Splinter their father is a theme that's really stuck. Heck even things like their nicknames of Leo, Don, Raph and Mike were never used in the show.

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

If memory serves Eastman and Laird pitched to the big two, and turned down.
Mirage helped to usher in the age of the Indy Comic, which I think would have happened regardless of whether or not the FW toon came to be. I think the TMNT would have had the same impact it did on comics, just not the global phenomenon that it became because of the toon.

Eastman and Laird pitched the Fugitoid to different comic publishers but no dice perhaps due to that they were always going to self publish TMNT.

They did get an offer from Marvel to publish TMNT comics later on when the show became a hit. Presumably a comic based on the cartoon and a collection of the Mirage works similar to what they did with Elfquest. Peter and Kevin didn't really feel okay with working with Marvel due to their treatment of Kirby but did attend a meeting with them and Marvel said they wanted most of the profits from merchandising - needless to say they didn't take it.

[CyberCubed]

What I find baffling is people acting like Mirage or 2k3 influence hasn't also affected every series. The Bay movies may be going full OT nostalgia mode, but not the others:

- The 2k3 series influence is seen in all modern versions of Karai. The 2k3 series made Karai into Shredder's adoptive daughter. The Nick cartoon does the same thing, make Karai into Shredder's adoptive daughter. The IDW comic makes Karai his Great Great grandaughter.

- Bishop has appeared in both the Nick cartoon and IDW comic

- Hun made his way into Mirage, a breakthrough since Mirage virtually never uses cartoon created characters, as well as IDW. There is a Nick Hun too but he doesn't resemble him.

- Fugitoid and the Triceratons, as well as the Utroms, have all appeared in Nick and IDW. Fugitoid/Utroms were never in the original cartoon.

- Renet has appeared in both Nick and IDW.

- Shredder having history to ancient Japan, the 2k3 series had him born in ancient Japan, is the same thing IDW did with their Shredder...only adding Hamato Yoshi into it as well.

- Shredder clones appeared in the Nick cartoon of all things


There is a lot of Mirage and 2k3 series influence in modern TMNT as well

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Why do you think Rocksteady/Bebop keep coming back in the first place? They've returned in every new series (IDW, Nick, and now the movie), and are still the most popular mutant henchmen in the franchise. And its because of their original incarnations that they keep returning. Sure there was Archie Bebop/Rocksteady too, but they were too short-lived in that series to be as memorable as the Fred Wolf versions.

I'm honestly not sure Bebop and Rocksteady are liked for the way they were written in the cartoon, it seems more likely that it simply has to do with their prominence in the cartoon and the nostalgia of the cartoon.